No disels in green states...what are they thinking!

[daschrier]

I think it's interesting how disels can't be sold in Mass and other green states, yet they get far better gas mileage than any other car...perfect for boston city driving.

Does anyone know the legalities of going across the border to buy a jetta TDI and bringing them back to Mass? After pricing one out though, and ending up with a 31k msrp, I think I'll pass....

 

[GT Mike]

Check with your state's DMV. They may even have that info on their website.

If you wanted a TDI, there's lots of them in Wisconsin. It'd probably only take less than 2 tankfuls to complete the return trip home! My buddy's '96 Passat TDI will most the time be able to roll the trip-o-meter back to zero before he needs to fill up. Over 1000 miles per tank is absolutely incredible!

 

[rpn453]

quote:

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Originally posted by daschrier:
No diesels in green states...what are they thinking!

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They're thinking that the air wouldn't support life if everyone drove diesels in a congested area.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by daschrier:
I think it's interesting how disels can't be sold in Mass and other green states, yet they get far better gas mileage than any other car...perfect for boston city driving.

Does anyone know the legalities of going across the border to buy a jetta TDI and bringing them back to Mass? After pricing one out though, and ending up with a 31k msrp, I think I'll pass....

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If your laws are like California's, a 49 state car needs to be used with 7,500 miles on the car before you buy it. You should be able to find Mass requirements online.

There are loopholes in the law in California big enough to drive a car through, probably in Mass too.

quote:

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Exceptions

As usual, there are a few exceptions included in the law. As a California resident or business you may be able to register a 49-State vehicle if you:

1. Obtained it as part of a divorce or inheritance settlement.
2. Purchased it to replace a vehicle stolen while you were using it out of state.
3. Purchased it to replace a vehicle which was destroyed or made inoperative beyond reasonable repair while you were using it out of state.
4. Were on active military duty outside California, and you registered the vehicle in the state of your last military service.

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Anyone who can't make one of those work for him, just isn't trying.

You could have an out of state friend take delivery and "sell" it to you when it hits 7,500 miles. Rumor has it there are also unscupulous people who adjust odometers

. I expect they can adjust one upward as well as downward.

My inclination would be to creatively follow the letter of the law, if iot the intent.

 

[crashz]

According to the RMV, we can buy all the TDIs we want. Just can't register them in MA.

The legilature needs to get a clue. New diesels don't belch huge clouds of smoke. In fact you can hardly even tell that they are diesel.

The EPA has gotten it totally backwards. Emission standards should be based upon total emissions released per mile driven, rather than spot checked. This would indicate a real world amount of emissions being pumped into the air.

Take a TDI Beetle (50 mpg) and a Gas Beetle (25 mpg) and drive for 1000 miles. Thats 20 gallons of diesel and 40 gallons of gas. At roughly 6 lbs per gallon (I don't remember the exact weight of each), the diesel releases 120 lbs of emissions less. Even if NOx is higher on a diesel, the overall impact is less.

 

[rpn453]

quote:

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Originally posted by crashz:
Even if NOx is higher on a diesel, the overall impact is less.

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Not locally, and I can definitely tell when I'm driving behind a new diesel, especially when on a bicycle.

Sure, a diesel engine uses energy more efficiently, but so does a gas engine without emissions controls. If diesels don't have to meet emissions laws, then gas engines shouldn't have to either; no EGR, catalytic converter, etc. This would make them more efficient. Of course, it would also be more efficient for me to dump my used oil in the alley than to use gas to drive it somewhere!

Air quality in the early 70's was so bad that they had to create emission laws. Air quality has improved a lot since then, yet it's still not great in congested areas. I can't believe the number of people that want to go back to that by using vehicles that can't pass current emission laws.

[ August 10, 2006, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: rpn453 ]

 

[Schmoe]

States that aren't allowing diesels have that probably written in the State Implementation Plans under the Clean Air Act. These states have ozone and other criteria element attainment problems.

 

[DriveHard]

my 2001 Jetta TDI has a catalytic converter and EGR. Pretty sure most newer VW diesels have them. I have not tried it, but read that you could lock yourself in a garage with my car running and warmed up and get nothing more than a headache...try that with a gasser. Yeah, I may emit more nox, but CO is way down.

 

[Ray H]

I believe sales and registration of diesel powered passenger vehicles and non-commercial light trucks should be unrestricted in all 50 states. I also believe diesel fuel should be priced commenserately with its BTU content* plus an additional surcharge to compensate for its increased oxides of nitrogen and particulate discharge output. If and when those contaminants actually achieve the reduced levels of current and future gasoline powered vehicles, then owners of those vehicles would qualify for discounted diesel fuel pricing as described below.

*BTU content is directly related to molecular weight. Pump unleaded regular probably has an average molecular weight somewhere around C-7+. #2 diesel, probably around C-13 or higher. (my best seat of the shorts guess...) Figure the BTU content would nearly double the price of #2 diesel compared to 87 octane unleaded regular. I wonder just how attractive diesel passenger vehicles and private use light trucks would be at, say, $6.00+/gallon? Under the "Ray" plan, commercial diesel vehicles would qualify for fuel discounts to adjust to current levels, plus or minus, as general economic conditions fluctuate. Of course the "Ray" plan would adjust the higher passenger vehicle and private light truck diesel fuel prices in response to general economic condition fluctuations, too. (But, without the discounting - isn't armchair social engineering a wonderful way to while away the hours?

)

[ August 10, 2006, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Schmoe]

Problem with diesels is the particulate matter (PM) discharge. They have historically not met CAA standards. Note that I say historically, some of these "anti-diesel" laws were written years ago before the onset of new technology and should be written anew.

 

[tsmay51]

I had no idea they had such laws in certain states. If they pulled that in Texas we would flip. There is a ton of people driving dodge cummins, ford powerstrokes, and chevy duramax trucks not to mention the few diesel powered cars that are on the roads.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by tsmay51:
I had no idea they had such laws in certain states. If they pulled that in Texas we would flip. There is a ton of people driving dodge cummins, ford powerstrokes, and chevy duramax trucks not to mention the few diesel powered cars that are on the roads.

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It affects cars. The law is often misinterpreted as banning diesel cars. What it actually does is set emission standards that current car diesels don't meet. The standards for trucks are lot looser.

 

[bulwnkl]

Ray, I think I'll go along with you, with a few provisos:

1) You need to show me again how you're getting double the BTUs/gal out of diesel fuel compared with gasoline. Colorado State shows an average of 138,000 BTU/gal for ~7-lb/gal #2 diesel fuel. Exxon says the average is ~130,000 BTU/gal. Colorado State also says ~6.2-lb/gal gasoline averages 124,300 BTU/gal, and I see averages of 120,000 - 125,000 BTU/gal listed all over the place. Not nearly so much of a difference as you appear to be claiming.

2) I'll go along with the non-commercial taxation scheme so long as any vehicle with a GVWR of 8,000 lbs of more is taxed as commercial regardless of use, and that any vehicle with a GCVWR of ~10,000 lbs. or more is also taxed as commercial regardless of use.

 

[Mustang_Cougar]

I read somewhere ("Car & Driver" or one of it's clones) that there won't be any diesel passenger vehicles imported in 2007, other than those by Daimler-Chrysler. Anybody else heard this?

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by bulwnkl:
Ray, I think I'll go along with you, with a few provisos:

1) You need to show me again how you're getting double the BTUs/gal out of diesel fuel...

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What part of, "(my best seat of the shorts guess...)" did you miss?

 

[bulwnkl]

What part of your listings of molecular weight and extrapolations to BTU content did you miss?

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:

quote:

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Originally posted by bulwnkl:
Ray, I think I'll go along with you, with a few provisos:

1) You need to show me again how you're getting double the BTUs/gal out of diesel fuel...

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What part of, "(my best seat of the shorts guess...)" did you miss?

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Ray, I think you might be moderately close on BTU/molecule being closely related to molecular weight. However, a lb or gallon of large molecule HC fuel would has fewer molecules and a equal mass of C7H16 has more energy/lb than C13H28

code:

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Molecule LHV(kJ/kg) sp grav

C7H16 44,436 0.690

C13H28 44,066 0.756

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So if a volume of C7H16 had a LHV energy content of 100,000, an equal volume of C13H28 would have a LHV energy content of 108,653