A quality restoration for me, I'm not impressed with the new muscle cars.
New vs. restored muscle car
- Thread starter M1Accord
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Originally Posted By: jhs914
I'm 65 years old and owned classic muscle cars back in the day when they were new (my first car was a brand new 1966 GTO with tri-power) and I've had new muscle cars (I currently have a 2012 392 Dodge Challenger SRT8).
If you want to tinker, fiddle with, and do constant maintenance while only driving to car shows and cruise-ins, then buy a fully restored classic. But if you actually plan on driving it as a real car buy a modern muscle car. There is no comparison. The new cars have brakes and suspensions that work, are reliable, get better gas mileage, are safer, and are more comfortable. And they are faster and more powerful.
A second vote for this idea. But I do have to admit that a drive in a 68 Camaro with a 454 big block/Muncie 4 speed will easily boot this logic into oblivion.
I'm 65 years old and owned classic muscle cars back in the day when they were new (my first car was a brand new 1966 GTO with tri-power) and I've had new muscle cars (I currently have a 2012 392 Dodge Challenger SRT8).
If you want to tinker, fiddle with, and do constant maintenance while only driving to car shows and cruise-ins, then buy a fully restored classic. But if you actually plan on driving it as a real car buy a modern muscle car. There is no comparison. The new cars have brakes and suspensions that work, are reliable, get better gas mileage, are safer, and are more comfortable. And they are faster and more powerful.
A second vote for this idea. But I do have to admit that a drive in a 68 Camaro with a 454 big block/Muncie 4 speed will easily boot this logic into oblivion.
Have a 440+6 Road Runner, and brother owns a Challenger RT.
Hope to buy a Challenger next year, new Challenger or Mustang hands down over the olds ones, they are faster, handle better, look better IMHO and less maintenance.
New Camaro looks cartonish so not retro and not cool. Vettes, meh great performance but not a muscle car.
Hope to buy a Challenger next year, new Challenger or Mustang hands down over the olds ones, they are faster, handle better, look better IMHO and less maintenance.
New Camaro looks cartonish so not retro and not cool. Vettes, meh great performance but not a muscle car.
As has already been said, it depends on how you will use it. As a daily driver, original cars from the 60's are not as fun to live with as they are as a weekend, sunshine car.
I've owned a few in my time and while I miss every single one now, I sure wouldn't want to drive one daily today.
Also, I agree with the poster who predicts a muscle-car bubble popping in the near future. I believe it is inevitable. When it happens, I will strongly consider another '66 GTO. Until then, the numbers just don't add up for me.
I'm also considering a compromise of sorts. A clean Buick Grand National or GMC Typhoon is a huge jump in handling and comfort while still unique enough to be interesting. Maybe even a T'bird Turbo Coupe. They can be had with a manual trans. Giddyup!
I've owned a few in my time and while I miss every single one now, I sure wouldn't want to drive one daily today.
Also, I agree with the poster who predicts a muscle-car bubble popping in the near future. I believe it is inevitable. When it happens, I will strongly consider another '66 GTO. Until then, the numbers just don't add up for me.
I'm also considering a compromise of sorts. A clean Buick Grand National or GMC Typhoon is a huge jump in handling and comfort while still unique enough to be interesting. Maybe even a T'bird Turbo Coupe. They can be had with a manual trans. Giddyup!
Maybe try a late 90's Viper coupe? Sort of a blend of an old muscle car drivetrain feel but with a factory sorted chassis.
I imagine one is far cheaper than a resto rod of similar performance? Plus you can keep it all original if you like and it might even appreciate a bit.
I imagine one is far cheaper than a resto rod of similar performance? Plus you can keep it all original if you like and it might even appreciate a bit.
Originally Posted By: jhs914
I'm 65 years old and owned classic muscle cars back in the day when they were new (my first car was a brand new 1966 GTO with tri-power) and I've had new muscle cars (I currently have a 2012 392 Dodge Challenger SRT8).
If you want to tinker, fiddle with, and do constant maintenance while only driving to car shows and cruise-ins, then buy a fully restored classic. But if you actually plan on driving it as a real car buy a modern muscle car. There is no comparison. The new cars have brakes and suspensions that work, are reliable, get better gas mileage, are safer, and are more comfortable. And they are faster and more powerful.
^^^ This^^ I had the same back in the day. The cars then were really fun but the technology of today is much better...especially with the comment about brakes.
I had a 66 Bonneville Convertible with a 421 and tri-power. That car would exceed 140 but it would take half the distance from Cleveland to Erie to stop it.
Then I got a 66 Fairlane 500Xl convertible with a custom built Shelby 289 and Hurst 4 speed, 4.11 posi RE. That car had disc brakes up front but they were still no match for the 350HP that thing pumped out.
Today's mustangs & camaros are way better...JMO
I'm 65 years old and owned classic muscle cars back in the day when they were new (my first car was a brand new 1966 GTO with tri-power) and I've had new muscle cars (I currently have a 2012 392 Dodge Challenger SRT8).
If you want to tinker, fiddle with, and do constant maintenance while only driving to car shows and cruise-ins, then buy a fully restored classic. But if you actually plan on driving it as a real car buy a modern muscle car. There is no comparison. The new cars have brakes and suspensions that work, are reliable, get better gas mileage, are safer, and are more comfortable. And they are faster and more powerful.
^^^ This^^ I had the same back in the day. The cars then were really fun but the technology of today is much better...especially with the comment about brakes.
I had a 66 Bonneville Convertible with a 421 and tri-power. That car would exceed 140 but it would take half the distance from Cleveland to Erie to stop it.
Then I got a 66 Fairlane 500Xl convertible with a custom built Shelby 289 and Hurst 4 speed, 4.11 posi RE. That car had disc brakes up front but they were still no match for the 350HP that thing pumped out.
Today's mustangs & camaros are way better...JMO
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If I had the bucks, I would buy old/restored.
There are a number of cars from '65 to '71 that present themselves well and have enough power to make me smile.
If you want to recall the years When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, there are only a few that carried big blocks well.
It would be an honor to wrench on any of them.
There are a number of cars from '65 to '71 that present themselves well and have enough power to make me smile.
If you want to recall the years When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, there are only a few that carried big blocks well.
It would be an honor to wrench on any of them.
It would really come down to personal preference and how the car would be used.
Looks - everybody has their own tastes
Price - how much are you willing to spend
Use - daily driver, weekend cruiser, track, drag, street strip. Modern ones will out perform old in every aspect for the most part, and for daily use classics can be less than enjoyable. You can make an old classic match new in most areas but requires even deeper pockets.
If you are looking for performance, you can't top the new offerings IMO.
Looks - everybody has their own tastes
Price - how much are you willing to spend
Use - daily driver, weekend cruiser, track, drag, street strip. Modern ones will out perform old in every aspect for the most part, and for daily use classics can be less than enjoyable. You can make an old classic match new in most areas but requires even deeper pockets.
If you are looking for performance, you can't top the new offerings IMO.
I am a huge muscle car fan. Nothing like smell sound and feel of the heavy ground pounding of the 1972 426 Hemi Cuda, sweet looks and sounds of the 1971 Camaro or the shapely 1967 Corvette Stingray with the 427 engine. I could look at them listen to them all day. Love them.
Fast forward to today, the new Camaro seems bloated and heavy, as does the Challenger (there is no 'Cuda), the new C7 Corvette
Alas, I have never driven in any of these, but from what I have read and heard on reviews is that the seating, the handling and seating while adequate for the times would just not compare well to the designs of today. I'd still take classic muscle for the wow factor and to grasp a lifelong dream.
So with that being said, if you could build a 1967 Corvette body and interior with a 2014 Corvette Stingray drive-train, suspension and seating would be cool.
Who am I kidding though I would love to have the new C7 Stingray. To me it is the entire package, best bang for the buck sports car out there, selectable fuel economy and softer ride...and then all-out track performance at the twist of a dial..come on! It is pretty much the only muscle car I would have from today taking in looks and performance.
Sorry, I have never really been a Mustang fan. I give them nods for 302 and 351 engines and the looks were great, but they just didn't do it for me. I also give nods for continually running the car through all its iterations. The new Mustangs are a good tribute to the older muscle car era, I would only consider the 5.0 GT and the Boss though, still way too many girls and older ladies driving Mustangs around here. Kinda takes the testosterone wind out the sails
Fast forward to today, the new Camaro seems bloated and heavy, as does the Challenger (there is no 'Cuda), the new C7 Corvette
Alas, I have never driven in any of these, but from what I have read and heard on reviews is that the seating, the handling and seating while adequate for the times would just not compare well to the designs of today. I'd still take classic muscle for the wow factor and to grasp a lifelong dream.
So with that being said, if you could build a 1967 Corvette body and interior with a 2014 Corvette Stingray drive-train, suspension and seating would be cool.
Who am I kidding though I would love to have the new C7 Stingray. To me it is the entire package, best bang for the buck sports car out there, selectable fuel economy and softer ride...and then all-out track performance at the twist of a dial..come on! It is pretty much the only muscle car I would have from today taking in looks and performance.
Sorry, I have never really been a Mustang fan. I give them nods for 302 and 351 engines and the looks were great, but they just didn't do it for me. I also give nods for continually running the car through all its iterations. The new Mustangs are a good tribute to the older muscle car era, I would only consider the 5.0 GT and the Boss though, still way too many girls and older ladies driving Mustangs around here. Kinda takes the testosterone wind out the sails
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New.
While you still can, before CAFE kills them once and for all.
Don't waste your money on an old one.
My '04 GTO was better in every way than every GTO that came before it, by any metric one wanted to use.
I would expect the new Camaro is the same way even though that, technically, is a pony car, as is the Ruststang.
While you still can, before CAFE kills them once and for all.
Don't waste your money on an old one.
My '04 GTO was better in every way than every GTO that came before it, by any metric one wanted to use.
I would expect the new Camaro is the same way even though that, technically, is a pony car, as is the Ruststang.
Originally Posted By: marc1
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS but for now we are in the low 6-figure household income. Therefore, I like to fantasize about a nice muscle car a little bit; play with the numbers, dream about it, and start making plans to ger one when I hit 45 years old or something. I'll be in a low taxes state by then so owning a nice car would not be such a poor financial decision.
Looking at old muscle cars, I see machine with souls. New muscle cars are like new Americans, extremely obese looking. The only thing that look close to the past is the Challenger and the only thing that is decent to drive in is Mustang, which is about to be butchered into a conFusion. Anyone here dreams of muscle cars but always own sedans or commuters? Would you spend money buying a restored muscle car or buy new?
Ok... here is my perspective. I am almost 50, I have owned and restored Detroit muscle cars since I could drive. I have owned some pretty nice ones, not just generic muscle but rare special ones. I just sold my real 1970 Ram Air IV Judge that I had owned for a span of 3 decades. I now own a 2011 Shelby GT500 (see sig). There is no question this latest crop of muscle is technically better than the old muscle. My Shelby is significantly quicker (12's in the 1/4) than my Ram Air IV (high 13's). It is significantly faster (155 MPH e-limited vs. 110 MPH RPM limited). It is safer, more fuel efficent (27 Imp MPG vs. 9), can achieve 1G in a corner, has a 500W stereo that plays my iPod, parts are readily available at the dealer... and on and on... it is 10 times the car my Judge was taking emotions out of the equation. But it will never have the as you put it - the soul of the old iron. I have not abandoned the old iron, I am in the market for another old muscle car, I currently have 3 possibles and I intend to act on something at some point. I personally think the old muscle car market is in for a huge crash starting in the next 10 years and this is what is holding me back right now. Gen-Y doesn't care about them and all people my age and older who are NOT true dyed-in-the-wool car enthusiasts (certain breeds of collectors, speculators, many BJ buyers, check book hot-rodders etc.) will be scrambling to unload these cars in a panic. I intend to ride that gravy train fully when it comes in and retake control of what was merely a hobby, my hobby and passion, before big money took over the hobby. Old muscle is a pain to keep running on a daily basis... parts are rare and expensive and not available readily... new muscle is like a Focus or a Cruze, easy to keep going. If you do not have the old iron in your blood (as I do) or grew up with them... I'd say go new... the new stuff as I said is way better, more reliable and easier to obtain.
I couldn't agree more 80's cars are already starting to appreciate the the 60's and earlier American muscle cars will go the way of the Brass era cars when that generation starts to die off. Which will be good for the real car guys, I mean $500k+ for a Charger Hemi really?
In the past decade even I have seen 90's muscle cars like the Mercedes 500E go from mid to low teens to mid to low twenties, even thirties for a good example.
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Pretty much whatever my generation had on our walls in the late 90's, and it wasn't a 60's Nova or a 1932 Ford coupe.
Pre war cars are also a banging deal, I saw a very nice 1940 Buick Coupe sell for cheap and that was one [censored] of a car. If I had the space I would have bought it.
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS but for now we are in the low 6-figure household income. Therefore, I like to fantasize about a nice muscle car a little bit; play with the numbers, dream about it, and start making plans to ger one when I hit 45 years old or something. I'll be in a low taxes state by then so owning a nice car would not be such a poor financial decision.
Looking at old muscle cars, I see machine with souls. New muscle cars are like new Americans, extremely obese looking. The only thing that look close to the past is the Challenger and the only thing that is decent to drive in is Mustang, which is about to be butchered into a conFusion. Anyone here dreams of muscle cars but always own sedans or commuters? Would you spend money buying a restored muscle car or buy new?
Ok... here is my perspective. I am almost 50, I have owned and restored Detroit muscle cars since I could drive. I have owned some pretty nice ones, not just generic muscle but rare special ones. I just sold my real 1970 Ram Air IV Judge that I had owned for a span of 3 decades. I now own a 2011 Shelby GT500 (see sig). There is no question this latest crop of muscle is technically better than the old muscle. My Shelby is significantly quicker (12's in the 1/4) than my Ram Air IV (high 13's). It is significantly faster (155 MPH e-limited vs. 110 MPH RPM limited). It is safer, more fuel efficent (27 Imp MPG vs. 9), can achieve 1G in a corner, has a 500W stereo that plays my iPod, parts are readily available at the dealer... and on and on... it is 10 times the car my Judge was taking emotions out of the equation. But it will never have the as you put it - the soul of the old iron. I have not abandoned the old iron, I am in the market for another old muscle car, I currently have 3 possibles and I intend to act on something at some point. I personally think the old muscle car market is in for a huge crash starting in the next 10 years and this is what is holding me back right now. Gen-Y doesn't care about them and all people my age and older who are NOT true dyed-in-the-wool car enthusiasts (certain breeds of collectors, speculators, many BJ buyers, check book hot-rodders etc.) will be scrambling to unload these cars in a panic. I intend to ride that gravy train fully when it comes in and retake control of what was merely a hobby, my hobby and passion, before big money took over the hobby. Old muscle is a pain to keep running on a daily basis... parts are rare and expensive and not available readily... new muscle is like a Focus or a Cruze, easy to keep going. If you do not have the old iron in your blood (as I do) or grew up with them... I'd say go new... the new stuff as I said is way better, more reliable and easier to obtain.
I couldn't agree more 80's cars are already starting to appreciate the the 60's and earlier American muscle cars will go the way of the Brass era cars when that generation starts to die off. Which will be good for the real car guys, I mean $500k+ for a Charger Hemi really?
In the past decade even I have seen 90's muscle cars like the Mercedes 500E go from mid to low teens to mid to low twenties, even thirties for a good example.
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Pretty much whatever my generation had on our walls in the late 90's, and it wasn't a 60's Nova or a 1932 Ford coupe.
Pre war cars are also a banging deal, I saw a very nice 1940 Buick Coupe sell for cheap and that was one [censored] of a car. If I had the space I would have bought it.
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
....
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Cars are a complete waste of money except for the utility or pleasure they offer their owner.
If the real estate / warehouse one buys to park them in for storage appreciates enough, it will lessen the sting a little bit, but they're still money losers.
Better to buy a car because you want to own that car, and forget about the money.
....
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Cars are a complete waste of money except for the utility or pleasure they offer their owner.
If the real estate / warehouse one buys to park them in for storage appreciates enough, it will lessen the sting a little bit, but they're still money losers.
Better to buy a car because you want to own that car, and forget about the money.
"built, not bought" is my motto.
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS
Also, wut? You butting elbows with the Rothschilds or something?
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS
Also, wut? You butting elbows with the Rothschilds or something?
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
....
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Cars are a complete waste of money except for the utility or pleasure they offer their owner.
If the real estate / warehouse one buys to park them in for storage appreciates enough, it will lessen the sting a little bit, but they're still money losers.
Better to buy a car because you want to own that car, and forget about the money.
Well as Jay Leno always says buy what you like you never know.
I wish I was in a position 10 years ago to buy a 300SL Gullwing when they were $100k cars, now they are creeping to around $1m. Can't afford to drop a million bucks on a car.
I view the above mentioned cars the same way, buy them while they are affordable. I have no doubt that 500E's will crest $100k within a decade or two.
XKE's are cranking up as well, gone are the days of a good clean gen 1 for what $30k or less?
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
....
Now is a great, great time to buy a good solid 80's and 90's car if you want to make money. I think NSX's are as cheap as they ever will be. Diablo's, 90's Vipers, Buick GNX's maybe. I think a clean, non modified Supra will bring big money in 20 years, etc.
Cars are a complete waste of money except for the utility or pleasure they offer their owner.
If the real estate / warehouse one buys to park them in for storage appreciates enough, it will lessen the sting a little bit, but they're still money losers.
Better to buy a car because you want to own that car, and forget about the money.
Well as Jay Leno always says buy what you like you never know.
I wish I was in a position 10 years ago to buy a 300SL Gullwing when they were $100k cars, now they are creeping to around $1m. Can't afford to drop a million bucks on a car.
I view the above mentioned cars the same way, buy them while they are affordable. I have no doubt that 500E's will crest $100k within a decade or two.
XKE's are cranking up as well, gone are the days of a good clean gen 1 for what $30k or less?
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Originally Posted By: M1Accord
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS but for now we are in the low 6-figure household income. Therefore, I like to fantasize about a nice muscle car a little bit; play with the numbers, dream about it, and start making plans to ger one when I hit 45 years old or something. I'll be in a low taxes state by then so owning a nice car would not be such a poor financial decision.
Looking at old muscle cars, I see machine with souls. New muscle cars are like new Americans, extremely obese looking. The only thing that look close to the past is the Challenger and the only thing that is decent to drive in is Mustang, which is about to be butchered into a conFusion. Anyone here dreams of muscle cars but always own sedans or commuters? Would you spend money buying a restored muscle car or buy new?
I'm fortunate enough to have one of each- one I restored myself over a 20-year period (the '69) and the SRT-8 I was fortunate enough to be able to buy *just* before getting too old to enjoy it ;-)
Maybe its just because its how I did it, but I wouldn't buy someone else's restoration. There are some good ones out there, but there are also scams galore. It would probably hold value a little better than a new one (let's face it- even SRTs, Cobras, and GTs depreciate like CRAZY as soon as you drive them), but the trends of what kind of restoration is in vogue change so fast that there's no guarantee. Not that you even have to turn all the wrenches- but if you want an old one YOU dictate (or do) the restoration yourself all the way from rustbucket to perfection. An old one is worth considering as an occasional-driver, but finding/finishing the right one is a huge challenge.
If you're going to drive it and drive it a lot, buy a new one. The old ones drive like trucks by comparison anyway. The old Mopars can be made to handle reasonably well with their original suspension technology IF you spend a lot for OEM-looking but improved aftermarket components- (bushings, sway bars, brakes, torsion bars, tweaked geometry knuckles, A-arms, adjustable strut rods, disk brakes, yadda yadda) and are willing to tolerate a harsh ride when you're done. And you'll still want more finesse. Its a tall order to build a restoration that rides and handles as well as a new car. Resto-mod is doable, but it pretty much requires building a frame inside the unibody and hanging modern suspension all around (search up the Lengendary Auto Super Cuda to see what they did to make a '71 Barracuda exceed 200 mph...)
And let's not forget safety. Why do the new ones look "obese?" Almost entirely due to safety regs. You're just a whole lot more likely to survive the unthinkable in a modern muscle car than in an old one. Heck, just the steering column alone is as deadly as a spear in a pre-68 muscle car. No side-impact protection, inadequate safety belts that don't pre-tension, no airbags, no rollover protection, big-block engine in your lap in a front-end collision, no rollover fuel/ignition shutoff... stuff you just don't think about everyday.
But yeah- machines with soul does describe the old ones well. So it drives a little like a school bus... I still wouldn't trade my '69 R/T for two SRTs. I'll never get CLOSE to owning anything like it again, especially not since I know every nut, bolt, weld, defect, and fixed item on it. And I have pictures of my daughter at age 3 standing in the seat twisting the steering wheel and making "brrprprprprpr" noises while I had it mostly apart in the garage ;-)
And by the way- I prefer the way the new Challenger drives to the way the new Mustang does. The Mustang has some better numbers and is lighter, but it also feels lighter, skitterier, and for lack of a better word, "tinnier." Maybe its my middle-age talking, but the Challenger walks the line between finesse and brute a little better than the Mustang.
In 5 years, we'll become the 2% according to the IRS but for now we are in the low 6-figure household income. Therefore, I like to fantasize about a nice muscle car a little bit; play with the numbers, dream about it, and start making plans to ger one when I hit 45 years old or something. I'll be in a low taxes state by then so owning a nice car would not be such a poor financial decision.
Looking at old muscle cars, I see machine with souls. New muscle cars are like new Americans, extremely obese looking. The only thing that look close to the past is the Challenger and the only thing that is decent to drive in is Mustang, which is about to be butchered into a conFusion. Anyone here dreams of muscle cars but always own sedans or commuters? Would you spend money buying a restored muscle car or buy new?
I'm fortunate enough to have one of each- one I restored myself over a 20-year period (the '69) and the SRT-8 I was fortunate enough to be able to buy *just* before getting too old to enjoy it ;-)
Maybe its just because its how I did it, but I wouldn't buy someone else's restoration. There are some good ones out there, but there are also scams galore. It would probably hold value a little better than a new one (let's face it- even SRTs, Cobras, and GTs depreciate like CRAZY as soon as you drive them), but the trends of what kind of restoration is in vogue change so fast that there's no guarantee. Not that you even have to turn all the wrenches- but if you want an old one YOU dictate (or do) the restoration yourself all the way from rustbucket to perfection. An old one is worth considering as an occasional-driver, but finding/finishing the right one is a huge challenge.
If you're going to drive it and drive it a lot, buy a new one. The old ones drive like trucks by comparison anyway. The old Mopars can be made to handle reasonably well with their original suspension technology IF you spend a lot for OEM-looking but improved aftermarket components- (bushings, sway bars, brakes, torsion bars, tweaked geometry knuckles, A-arms, adjustable strut rods, disk brakes, yadda yadda) and are willing to tolerate a harsh ride when you're done. And you'll still want more finesse. Its a tall order to build a restoration that rides and handles as well as a new car. Resto-mod is doable, but it pretty much requires building a frame inside the unibody and hanging modern suspension all around (search up the Lengendary Auto Super Cuda to see what they did to make a '71 Barracuda exceed 200 mph...)
And let's not forget safety. Why do the new ones look "obese?" Almost entirely due to safety regs. You're just a whole lot more likely to survive the unthinkable in a modern muscle car than in an old one. Heck, just the steering column alone is as deadly as a spear in a pre-68 muscle car. No side-impact protection, inadequate safety belts that don't pre-tension, no airbags, no rollover protection, big-block engine in your lap in a front-end collision, no rollover fuel/ignition shutoff... stuff you just don't think about everyday.
But yeah- machines with soul does describe the old ones well. So it drives a little like a school bus... I still wouldn't trade my '69 R/T for two SRTs. I'll never get CLOSE to owning anything like it again, especially not since I know every nut, bolt, weld, defect, and fixed item on it. And I have pictures of my daughter at age 3 standing in the seat twisting the steering wheel and making "brrprprprprpr" noises while I had it mostly apart in the garage ;-)
And by the way- I prefer the way the new Challenger drives to the way the new Mustang does. The Mustang has some better numbers and is lighter, but it also feels lighter, skitterier, and for lack of a better word, "tinnier." Maybe its my middle-age talking, but the Challenger walks the line between finesse and brute a little better than the Mustang.
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