New Car Oil Question

[Bill in Utah]

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

Well, I got rid of my home phone. Lets see, I use to give 23 a month to the phone comp. Now I use my cell phone. That is a savings of over 476 dollers a year. I do 5000 mile oci with synthetic oil at $240. Im stillup 26 bucks.. hey not bad.

Again EXCELLENT proof...

 

[toyotaguy]

Just pointing out that the money aspect of this synthetic oil versus conventional oil is just plain silly. I never said conventional oil is bad. I do say people waste money on different things. What you think is a waste of money, another would say its not. We shouldn't argue the cost aspect of this. Because in the great scheme of things the cost doesn't really matter to me and apparently to the others who will pay for syntheitc. Bill, do you rent or own? do you lease or buy a vehicle. And what kind of vehicle do you drive. Not that I really care, but thats the difference between us, I don't care where you spend your money.

 

[Bill in Utah]

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

Bill, do you rent or own? do you lease or buy a vehicle. And what kind of vehicle do you drive. Not that I really care, but thats the difference between us, I don't care where you spend your money.

Own a house. Own all of my vehicles. Currently a 2005 Toyota Corolla with 135k on it and 2007 Outback with 25k on it. Again, the point is some people don't NEED to WASTE their $$ on something that DOES NOT MATTER. When someone comes to this board for FACTS (like I'm going to change my oil every 3k or 3 months no matter what TYPE of oil) and people post that syn is better over conventional in a Toyota (which not a single model HAS TO HAVE syn) or Honda (SAME) is NOT true. I don't like telling someone to waste their money.. We have people on the east coast who do that for us.

 

[ryland]

Lately I've used dino pennz yb in my cars. To make myself feel cool I just call it organic oil and all of a sudden im hip and trendy again.

 

[outsiderwv]

 Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

 Originally Posted By: dnewton3

"Ask yourself this...what is the #1 reason people wont use synthetic? COST. Eliminate Cost and im about 99.9% sure everyone will use it" Why? Because value is more important to me than cost. Cost is the measure of the price you pay. Value is the measure of fiscal efficiency; what did I get out for what I paid in? I have no problem spending big money on big ticket items. But I do expect value for every dollar I spend. Value does not mean "cheap"; it means output/input. It is a measure of ratio differentiation. Thanks for the continued rhetoric, though. Again, anyone have some solid proof that synthetics actually protect "better" for shorter OCIs, say 5k miles? Anyone find any UOAs on this site that prove there is not significant disparity between the "cost" and the "result"? Why pay 2x or 3x more money, if you're not getting better wear numbers? Peace of mind? Sure, that's worth something. But you've thrown in a variable that exactly answers why I say you SHOULD use synthetics; longer drain intervals. The way to get your value from something is to set goals and parameters, and then operate up to and within those criteria, getting the most return for the least input. I have used, currently use, and will continue to use synthetic lubricants when it makes sense. There are applications in my fleet that warrant the added expense. But I just don't use them willy-nilly because of hype and bloated sales claims. Dino fluids are perfectly capable fluids when used as prescribed; 5k miles on a good filter in a moderate temperature zone is certainly 100% within the capability range of many good products on the market today. P.S. - most turbo cars don't require synthetics; they are often recommended, but not required. And if that is your measure, then why is it that turbo-diesel trucks perform perfectly well with dino oil changes, some up to 10k miles? There is no more oil in a 6.6L Dmax per liter than a 3.0L or 3.5L turbo V-6, or a 2.5L turbo 4cyl. In fact, some of the smaller gas engines actually carry more oil per liter than the larger V-8 engines. I don't for a second believe that a small hot-rod gas turbo works any harder than a diesel truck pulling 12k pounds of hay three counties away on a hot August day. Again, proof please. Check the marketing hype at the door.

And we can see all the PROOF they brought to the discussion. All they do bring up is bottled water or starbucks INSTEAD of answering the REAL question. But that's ok as long as they are not posting every time someone asks what oil to run and their UNSUPPORTED answer. Very well put dnewton3. I could never put it as well as you did.. I used to waste $$ on things that did not matter. Then I grew up. On oil I've always done what I do today and never an problem over hundreds of thousands of miles. On yesterdays oils. And today's conventional oils ARE BETTER than the first syns. I love the it's "only" $8 more per change. If we do 3k OCI then that is "only" $400 over 150k miles (which my 05 is coming up to) That is "only" 5733 miles worth of gas @ $3 a gallon. I know where I'd rather spend the $$ because in the end, it does not matter. 5k OCI? Its "only" $240. Sadly most Syn users don't make it past that. Some of us go longer than that with conventional (and HAVE POSTED UOAs to SUPPORT them). I know I'll make 300-400k with no problems.

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

I don't think conventional oils are bad such as 5w20 penzz or valv. But If someone WANTS a full synthetic and it makes them more secure, then why is it a waste? People can be wasteful with lots of different things in there life. Such as beer, smokes etc

Then you admit that you have no PROOF that syn is GOING to make your engine last longer. You are running it because it makes you FEEL better. Cool! But don't feel anyone who runs conventional is doing anything wrong and their engine is protected as well as yours. Cause their engine is WELL protected. Millions of engines out there are proving this everyday. (and using other brands or weights than 5w-20 Pennzoil or Valvoline) Again, PLEASE SPEND some time reading this board. For the last 7 years there have been HUNDREDS of threads providing FACTS on Conventional vs Syn in the same engines. A LOT of excellent educational info here. I'd wish people would read it instead of just posting when they sign up. Take care, Bill

Thanks for your information. I have read several posts since I have signed up and did not post just because I didn't read anything. I didn't appreciate the comment, but thanks for your input. It doesn't bother me to use PP or PYB, I was just trying to get a consensus on whether or not Synthetic provided better protection than conventional during short trip driving conditions. From what I have gathered on the comments entered here, it seems that it does not matter because both synthetic and dino will provide the same protection during this type of driving and excellent protection given 3k - 4k oil change intervals. I have also gathered that it doesn't matter when you switch to synthetic as long as you are past about 1k miles on a new car. I did search for this information and found many threads on the new car issue. I didn't find many on the short trip issue. Thanks for your input again, it is appreciated. I assume the oil filter is what really matters regardless of oil then?

 

[Bill in Utah]

 Originally Posted By: outsiderwv

Thanks for your information. I have read several posts since I have signed up and did not post just because I didn't read anything. I didn't appreciate the comment, but thanks for your input. It doesn't bother me to use PP or PYB, I was just trying to get a consensus on whether or not Synthetic provided better protection than conventional during short trip driving conditions. From what I have gathered on the comments entered here, it seems that it does not matter because both synthetic and dino will provide the same protection during this type of driving and excellent protection given 3k - 4k oil change intervals. I have also gathered that it doesn't matter when you switch to synthetic as long as you are past about 1k miles on a new car. I did search for this information and found many threads on the new car issue. I didn't find many on the short trip issue. Thanks for your input again, it is appreciated. I assume the oil filter is what really matters regardless of oil then?

Just change the oil and filter each time and you'll be fine. No need to spend $10 or more for a filter with such short OCIs. And correct, you can go to syn with no problems if you wanted to. The old tales of waiting till 10k or beyond are not true today. Enjoy the new rig and Welcome! (sorry about all the fireworks, we try to keep it real here..) Bill

 

[toyotaguy]

That Outback is worth 23,000 dollers. You could have bought a vehicle for less then that. My point..

 

[toyotaguy]

Well now Im going to the local car wash to drop about $2.00, then to the local coffee shop to play with my laptop and drink some $2.50 coffee. See ya all later

 

[D189379]

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

Well now Im going to the local car wash to drop about $2.00, then to the local coffee shop to play with my laptop and drink some $2.50 coffee. See ya all later

That's almost as wasteful as arguing on the internet.

 

[toyotaguy]

lol, yep

 

[toyotaguy]

I guess I would say, Cause I can. And I am by no means wealthy. But I enjoy it and that's the main thing

 

[westcoaster]

Ultimatley, it comes down to one question? Do you love your new car? There is definalely a cost difference using Syn's, lets say 20 bucks extra per OCI?. If you do 4 or even 5 changes in a year, thats an additional 100 dollars. So that begs the question. Do you love your car to spend an extra 100, or even 200 dollars per year giving her "The Best!!!!" Are Syn's better, yeah they are. Good cold flow, more stable, last longer. Are conventionals good, yeah, they are good too. But it comes down to Love!!! I have a 97 Sunfire and a 2006 Kia Sorento, and I love my cars. so I spend the extra little bit and give them "The Best". To me, the extra couple hundred bucks in a year really isn't that big a deal. It just comes down to me giving my cars the best and me feeling good doing so!! You can live off of "Flank Steaks". They are good and when prepared right, they are tasty. But how good does it feel when you bite into that piece "Tenderloin". Feels good don't it. Same thing with ois. And I'm sure that I would feel much better drinking Syn's then Conventionals!!!! My cars feel the same way!!!

 

[toyotaguy]

Very nicely written westcoaster

 

[dnewton3]

OK - since no one has put up some evidence, I'll link a bit here. First off, this is a diesel UOA series from this site. I fully comprehend that HDEO and PCMO oils are somewhat different, but this link really illustrates my point. Further, because this is one man using one truck, with only oil being the large variable, we can draw some fairly reasonable conclusions. This is obviously not a true "study", but it certainly provides anecdotal evidence. I should know; I do statistical process quality control for a living. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1480697&fpart=1 If you open the UOA history link in Bill's post, you see a very nice detailed UOA history. I would suggest ignoring the first 10k miles or so, as break-in wear can skew some info. But you will notice that he has used both synthetic and dino HDEOs interchangably throughout the vehicle history. What you should also notice is that for these UOAs, there is no appreciable wear reduction when using synthetics. Statistically, they are all within normal operating bounds. So, was there any real benefit to spending 2x more money, and getting little or no reduction in wear metals? Not in the way I see it. Even if you make a "wear rate per mile" comparison, the synthetics do not show any clear advantage; certainly not on a scale of 2:1 as would be eximplified by the 2x higher cost (or more) of "synthetics". So my challenge to all the "synthetics will save your soul" proponents continues to be this; in moderate OCI durations, in moderate climates, show me the UOA proof that synthetics are worth the added expense. Prove to me that they reduce wear proportionally to their expense. I have looked through hundreds of UOAs (including PCMO, HDEO and Motorcycle) but I have yet to find any solid evidence that, within those operating parameters, there is a linear scale of ROI. I'll fully admit that e-x-t-r-em-e temps and very long drain intervals certainly favor the synthetics. But the OP (remember him?) is simply asking if there is a "better" choice for moderate driving with moderate OCIs. The PROOF shows that dinos fill the bill in these circumstances. You might feel as though synthetics offer "better protection", but that is based upon emotional supposition, and not factual basis. Satiating the ego for "peace of mind" does not equal logical thought. It's OK to "waste". I smoke cigars; I don't "need" them. I drink liquor; I don't "need" it. But the differnce between me and the synthetic oil zealots is that I recognize and admit my wastes, and do not try to convince others that my way is the "only" way. There is in life, typically, many roads to the same end. Outsiderwv can certainly choose what he wants to run in his vehicle; no one will deny him that. But for some to assure him that synthetics are "better" for his vehicle application, is irresponsible. They are a waste by all logical measures.

 

[NHHEMI]

To those who keep saying there is no benefit to synthetic and asking for proof... The benefits of synthetic oil over conventional oil have already been proved over the years and discussed to infinity and beyond on this site and you all asking for proof and evidence and the like know it. Doesn't matter what we post/say you have your mind made up and you would dispute it if God himself posted about the benefits of synthetic oils. Why keep asking for proof when you already know the answers and you would disagree over every thing we posted anyway. From what I see, you are just doing it to be argumentative. No one is saying conventional oil is bad. Synthetic oils do provide improvements over conventional oil in many, many, areas however. I will turn it around on you and ask YOU to prove that wrong( good luck to you ). Obviously there are times when a synthetic oil is overkill( this guy is one of those times - regular oil would be fine )and they don't need those improvements and benefits but they are still there is our point. If it makes the person feel better why does it bother you so much that they use synthetic though? For $18-$20 he can get a good quality synthetic oil and even a filter with it if he shops aroound. That is $5 +/- more than a conventional oil and filter. If he wants to spend the few dollars extra for a better oil I don't call that being wasteful at all. If you can't justify the extra cost of synthetics fine. Run conventional oil. I don't care. To continually claim there are no benefits to synthetic oil vs conventional oil though seems like you are trying to stop the tide. An impossible task.

 

[Bill in Utah]

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

That Outback is worth 23,000 dollers. You could have bought a vehicle for less then that. My point..

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

Well now Im going to the local car wash to drop about $2.00, then to the local coffee shop to play with my laptop and drink some $2.50 coffee. See ya all later

Wow.. Impressive facts. Thanks!

 

[webfors]

 Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

That Outback is worth 23,000 dollers. You could have bought a vehicle for less then that. My point..

 Originally Posted By: toyotaguy

Well now Im going to the local car wash to drop about $2.00, then to the local coffee shop to play with my laptop and drink some $2.50 coffee. See ya all later

Wow.. Impressive facts. Thanks!

Stop bringing coffee into this!! I'll never be able to enjoy my 'ginger snap latte' the same again

 

[toyotaguy]

well, in reality a vehicle is just a mode of transportation. So why the Sub Outback? my point is and will continue to be, if you want to spend money on somthing, then no one should belittle a person that does so. I will never say you are wrong in using conventional oil, just don't tell me I am wrong to use synthetics. I for one have a 2009 Toyota corolla. I was going to buy a camry instead, but decided on the corolla. Savings of about $5,000. My synthetic oil use is far from that figure from the time I bought it to the time I get rid of it.

 

[toyotaguy]

sorry! enjoy your Latte. Can't take the money with you. I feel like I am contributing to our economy. Cheers! Im more of an Americano type of guy

 

[toyotaguy]

this came from bill on 1/16/03. So maybe he does have a hidden love for synthetics Wallmart just got some Mobil 1 10-30 in the 5 qt jugs here and went from $15.88 to $22.88! The last 5 I bought was about 3 months ago for $12.88. Wish I bought more. Pretty close to the single qt price. Bill