New Beetle PS Fluid?

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

gamefoo21

Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
280
Location
Kah-nah-dah
So, I found the Service Interval sheets, and Fluid requirment sheets.

For the PS it says not to use ATF. I really don't like the idea of forking out $15 for 500ml of fluid when it takes 1.5-2.0L of the stuff.

So in flushed out the burnt, dead, stinky, filthy factory fill PS and put in some Maxlife ATF, but that was before I found the little caption that warns of ATF use.

The steering is also much more responsive, the pump is silent, and so far there are no ill side-effects. I just want to be sure though.
 
I don't have a dog in your hunt, but I've heard of Very Bad things happening to folks using regular ATF/PSF in VWs. The vane pump rapidly shears the [censored] out of most regular fluids and it wreaks havoc on the seals.

The correct stuff (as I'm sure you know) is Pentosin CHF11S or Febi S6161 hydraulic fluid. I typically use an oil extractor to drain the reservoir of my cars every year and top up with fresh. So far I've gone through a whopping $20 of fluid in 4 years.

I have heard from my VW gurus that use of the wrong fluid (ie, ATF) will cause rapid degradation of the steering rack seals until they leak like a sieve and requires replacement of the whole shebang. Some folks say any vane pump rated fluid will work fine, but so far the only ones I know of are the Pentosin or Febi fluids above.

Personally I hope all goes well with your car as I would like to be able to use off-the-shelf fluid. Keep us updated.

Just to clarify, was this the standard Valvoline Maxlife Dex/Merc ATF?

EDIT: Then again, I'm reading lots of (older) posts here - many from Audi Junkie & azsynthetic among others - what say use of M1 ATF, Prestone ATF, Valvoline PSF/ATF and offerings by RP, Amsoil or RL all work fine. Maybe this isn't actually a problem if you do a good flush? Color me doubly interested now.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the joy is the dealers around here charge a fortune for the proper fluid. I drained the res, filled it with the ATF, then disconnected the return line, and let the pump pump out about 2L of fluid. The fresh cherry red cough syrup that went in came out, blackish and darkened, the fluid has been in there for only a little while, but it's already turning dark, it's getting loaded up with all the [censored] that the old PSF couldn't carry.

Yes, it's the Valvoline Maxlife Dex/Merc ATF.

Here's the info sheet for the Pentosin CHF 11S:

http://www.pentosin.com/flexxtrader/data/usf/Pentosin CHF 11S_GB.pdf

Seems the Pentosin is a slightly thinner fluid. All the way across the board.

Pentosin Viscosity
100c = 6.0
40c = 18.7
15c = 0.83
Index = 313
Pour Point = -57c
Flash Point = 156c

Maxlife Viscosity
100c = 6.3
40c = 30.3
60f = 0.85
Index = 165
Pour Point = -51c
Flash Point = 202c

That pentosin, is in no way lifetime, it was borked, the steering was unresponsive, there was free play, and feedback was numb. Not to mention that the 'green' fluid was black with hints of green in the light.

Might have to upgrade to a Group IV or V based Dex VI ATF. lol

Edit: Redline PSF has the following specs ->

Flash Point °C 225
Foam 0
Rust (D66A/B) Pass
Vis @ -40°C 18,000 cP
Fire Point °C 258
Copper Corrosion 1b
Vis @ 100°C after shear 6.4 cSt
Vis @ 100°C 6.46 cSt
Viscosity Index 143
Pour Point, °C -50

It's closer to the Maxlife than it is the Pentosin, specially the high temp range, but there is no middle of the road spec for the PSF, so the Temp range is hmm. I do like the viscosity test after shear from Redline.

D6 Specs:

Vis @ 100°C, cSt 6.4
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 30.7
Viscosity Index 166
Pour Point, °C -60
Flash Point, °C 249
Brookfield Vis @ -40°C, P 45

Similar to the PSF. I will email Redline and ask what they think.
 
Last edited:
Also the -40c Brookfield numbers for the Pentosin and Max life are:

Vis @ -40°C 1100 mm2/s
Maxlife: Vis @ -40°C 12,000 cP
 
Nothing beats the cold flow of the CHF11s or its replacement 202.

The only issues would be a little belt, seal, pump... strain when really cold out(especially in your location).

There is no 'being sure'. Just make sure you have all of the old fluid out. I'd flush it again with the Maxlife.

Most automakers have their special fluids for a reason. IMO, lack of proper maintenance isn't a good enough reason, nor is milking the owner for overpriced P$F...
 
Originally Posted By: gamefoo21
That pentosin, is in no way lifetime, it was borked, the steering was unresponsive, there was free play, and feedback was numb. Not to mention that the 'green' fluid was black with hints of green in the light.
There is no such thing as any 'lifetime' fluid in an automobile IMO. Even the excellent G12 coolant used in VWs should get refreshed at every timing belt change.

Extracting PSF from my Golf the first time it was already quite dark but still greenish. I'd recommend at least a drain & fill every 2 years (at the same time as your brake flush) no matter what fluid used.

Since you already noticed steering problems, the rack may have already been a goner. But considering you mention an improvement in steering I'd keep doing whatever you're doing.
 
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Nothing beats the cold flow of the CHF11s or its replacement 202.
Interesting, I was not aware of CHF 202. According to this Beck Arnley PDF 202 and 11S are completely miscible.

If one lives in and never travels out of a mild climate, I wonder if the low temp viscosity would even be an issue. My assumption is not, but I don't prescribe to the theory of using different oils in different seasons. My cars should be able of traveling to any drivable place in all of North America without having to change fluids - all coolant at max concentration (best low temp performance, allows top-ups with distilled water if necessary), 5w40 synthetic oils, etc...
 
I was told to never use anything but VW/Audi power steering fluid in a VW/Audi. Considering how much a new rack/pump assy costs, I think I'll stick with it instead of experimenting. lol
 
I found out the Redline PSF does meet the VW requirements, along with the a few manufacturer vane pump requirements.

It misses the pour point by -2c aka -50c vs -52c on CHF202, but it handles high temps a [censored] of a lot better.

Was starting to get pump noise with the MaxLife Dex/Merc, after a few weeks so I flushed it out and refilled with RL PSF. Going to do the res suck and refill this weekend, to get any remaining ATF out and will see how this works out.

Was just lucky to find the RL stuff up here.
 
Originally Posted By: pavelow
I was told to never use anything but VW/Audi power steering fluid in a VW/Audi. Considering how much a new rack/pump assy costs, I think I'll stick with it instead of experimenting. lol


It is not experimenting when Valvoline said it is OK to use their fluid. I am over 80K miles on the Valvoline Synpower PSF in my 03 VW TDI with absolutely no problem. On top of that I got the Valvoline Synpower for $1/qt at Checker on a closeout, still got at least 2 cases left.
 
I like ATF+4 and get a lot of positive long-term feedback on it from Audi guys. I know it says not to use ATF, but I do anyway. Pentosin to too thin. fwiw, Mercedes specs ATF+4 and uses the same parts supplier for the PS system. Def take out the MaxLife, ATF has a slight seal swelling effect over PSF anyway.

btw- no doubt REGULAR PSF is a giant fail in VWs, it's the lamest automotive fluid on Earth. otoh, Dex is the MOST common ATF in use in the auto industry. ATF is up to the job, regular PSF is not.

I'd go w/ ATF+4, no doubt.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
SynPower PSF is nothing special.


It is special when it is $1/quart and works in almost any vehicles.
 
Often times using the incorect fluid is the PS system will lead to bad seal leaks in the rack & pinio assembly as my friend with a BMW found out.
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
SynPower PSF is nothing special.


It is special when it is $1/quart and works in almost any vehicles.


Well, that belongs in the cheapskate forum, this is the technical forum, and, as I was speaking in technical terms.

If you think it properly replaces Pentosin, a pure PAO formulation, you are wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Often times using the incorect fluid is the PS system will lead to bad seal leaks in the rack & pinio assembly as my friend with a BMW found out.


A lot of time, owners wrongly add an incorrect fluid to a leaking system, and when this error is discovered the whole failed system is blamed on a few ounces of alien fluid. This is a device used by dealers to deny warranty service.

Just because a fluid is not the same as oem, does not mean it will harm the system, it can in fact help. See my posts re ATF+4 in Audis to replace Pentosin and in MBs now as oem fluid.
 
Pentosin products are not necessarily pure PAO formulations. 11S has a very hefty dose of PAO, 202, not so much.

11S Ingredients:

1. 1-Decene, dimer, hydogenated.
CAS: 68649-11-6

2. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic
CAS: 64742-38-7

3. 2-propenoic acid, 2 methyl, dodecylester, polymer with methyl 2-methyl-2-propenoate and tetradecyl 2-ethyl 2-propenoate.
CAS: 68171-50-6

4. White mineral oil (petroleum), light paraffinic
CAS: 8042-47-5

5. Amines, polyethylene polycompounds with polybutenyl succinic anhydride
CAS: 68439-80-5


Based on one MSDS for CHF 11s, it is 50-70% PAO, 10-20% light dewaxed paraffin, 1-10% 2-Propeonic acid,2-methdodecyl-ester, and
Based on another MSDS, it is 50-100% PAO.



202 Ingredients:

1. Lubricating oil, petroleuem, c 15-30, hydrotreated neutral oil based.
CAS: 72623-86-0

2. 1-Decene, dimer, hydogenated.
CAS: 68649-11-6

3. White mineral oil (petroleum), light paraffinic
CAS: 92062-35-6

4. 2-propenoic acid, 2 methyl, dodecylester, polymer with methyl 2-methyl-2-propenoate and tetradecyl 2-ethyl 2-propenoate.
CAS: 68171-50-6

5. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic
CAS: 64742-65-0

Based on the MSDS for CHF 202, it is <20% PAO and <20% Hydrotreated middle distillates
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Owen Lucas
2005 Scion Power Steering Fluid Change + Reservoir Ultrasonic Cleaning + Chemical Flush (Attempted)
Replies
16
Views
2K
researcher
A
Aisin 0WS fluid lower viscosity in North America compared to AISIN AFW+ overseas
Replies
5
Views
2K
MolaKule
A
Castrol Transmax ATF/CVT Universal most similar to 'Real' Aisin/Toyota WS fluid?
2
Replies
25
Views
7K
pbm
O
2011 Toureg TDI 8 speed aisin trans fluid
Replies
19
Views
860
Cary
E
Cub Cadet transmission/hydraulic fluid
Replies
2
Views
1K
gman2304
Back
Top