napa gold oil filters vs purolator classic filters

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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.


No, completely incorrect claiming that >20 microns is the same as @ 20 microns.


Fixed your typo (in red) to start. This has been hashed over many times. If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.

When Fram says that their filter removes 99% of all particles >20 microns, then that is saying no matter what size the particles are from 20 microns and greater, for every 100 that hit the media, only 1 gets through. Even if that 1 particle was always 20 microns in size, the statement is still basically true. If the test dust was ALL 20.01 microns in size, and only 1 got through, then you would say the filter is basically "99% @ 20 microns". But since there are particles that are smaller and larger than 20 microns in the test oil, then I believe Fram uses the ">20 microns" statement to make people realize it's catching everything and small as 20 microns and greater. Most consumers aren't to up on filter efficiency and beta ratios, so I think Fram is trying to make it as simple as possible to understand.

If Fram could use the statement "99% at 20 microns and greater" it might sooth the hair splitting dudes that can't quite grasp that 20.01 microns is still larger than 20 through simple mathematical deduction.
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Also, motorking, can you provide the like published specifications for tg3600 as is provided below by wix for their equivalent 51516. Thank you


Part Details http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=76178


whistle.gif
I'll be awaiting your responses, motoring. You said to ask you a question direct. I've asked 3 questions now in this thread since. I understand your busy and all so ill keep checking back.
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Also, motorking, can you provide the like published specifications for tg3600 as is provided below by wix for their equivalent 51516. Thank you


Part Details http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=76178


whistle.gif
I'll be awaiting your responses, motoring. You said to ask you a question direct. I've asked 3 questions now in this thread since. I understand your busy and all so ill keep checking back.



You didn't email him your questions directly?
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.


No, completely incorrect claiming that >20 microns is the same as @ 20 microns.


Fixed your typo (in red) to start. This has been hashed over many times. If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.

When Fram says that their filter removes 99% of all particles >20 microns, then that is saying no matter what size the particles are from 20 microns and greater, for every 100 that hit the media, only 1 gets through. Even if that 1 particle was always 20 microns in size, the statement is still basically true. If the test dust was ALL 20.01 microns in size, and only 1 got through, then you would say the filter is basically "99% @ 20 microns". But since there are particles that are smaller and larger than 20 microns in the test oil, then I believe Fram uses the ">20 microns" statement to make people realize it's catching everything and small as 20 microns and greater. Most consumers aren't to up on filter efficiency and beta ratios, so I think Fram is trying to make it as simple as possible to understand.

If Fram could use the statement "99% at 20 microns and greater" it might sooth the hair splitting dudes that can't quite grasp that 20.01 microns is still larger than 20 through simple mathematical deduction.
grin.gif



It's not at all unreasonable to conclude that
FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of PH8A, 3387A, and 4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or XG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns
Could easily mean 99% of microns above 20. That is leaving it as open as the plains of Kansas.
I know many of you haves hashed these things out probably add infinitum. It appears many just decided to blindly believe and the others just moved on because the data has not been published and made available. I haven't hashed it out yet and I'd like to know the answers. FRAM should be transparent to the consumer. This info isn't going to effect any kind of trade secret or give up some cutting edge technology. Just simple facts. What is the flow rate, maximum pressure, filtration efficiency at smaller micro sizes and the definite absolute micron size it can filter etc.
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Also, motorking, can you provide the like published specifications for tg3600 as is provided below by wix for their equivalent 51516. Thank you


Part Details http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=76178


whistle.gif
I'll be awaiting your responses, motoring. You said to ask you a question direct. I've asked 3 questions now in this thread since. I understand your busy and all so ill keep checking back.



You didn't email him your questions directly?


He didn't say it had to be by email.
Also if FRAM intends to be transparent, they should provide the info for everyone to see.

Its obvious to me that none of you have seen the published data to satisfy the questions or you would not hesitate to share it to prove your take either way.

Lastly I will email him my questions if he does not provide the answers here where he should, since the info im asking for should not be revealing of proprietary information.
 
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Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Also, motorking, can you provide the like published specifications for tg3600 as is provided below by wix for their equivalent 51516. Thank you


Part Details http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=76178


whistle.gif
I'll be awaiting your responses, motoring. You said to ask you a question direct. I've asked 3 questions now in this thread since. I understand your busy and all so ill keep checking back.



You didn't email him your questions directly?


At this rate, he might as well put the question in a bottle and throw it in the nearest puddle.
crackmeup2.gif


Email him directly or send him a PM. Also, his phone x is in his signature.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Also, motorking, can you provide the like published specifications for tg3600 as is provided below by wix for their equivalent 51516. Thank you


Part Details http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=76178


whistle.gif
I'll be awaiting your responses, motoring. You said to ask you a question direct. I've asked 3 questions now in this thread since. I understand your busy and all so ill keep checking back.



You didn't email him your questions directly?


At this rate, he might as well put the question in a bottle and throw it in the nearest puddle.
crackmeup2.gif


Email him directly or send him a PM. Also, his phone x is in his signature.


As I said I will email him if necessary but I wont hold my breath.

And really with as many blind followers and the general, ignorant(to the facts) public, it seems he doesn't really need to.
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
As I said I will email him if necessary but I wont hold my breath.

And really with as many blind followers and the general, ignorant(to the facts) public, it seems he doesn't really need to.


This is a thread with the words Napa Gold and Purolator in the title. Why would a Fram rep look at this thread?

Email him. He will get back with you. I doubt he'd care if you posted his reply in this thread either.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
As I said I will email him if necessary but I wont hold my breath.

And really with as many blind followers and the general, ignorant(to the facts) public, it seems he doesn't really need to.


This is a thread with the words Napa Gold and Purolator in the title. Why would a Fram rep look at this thread?

Email him. He will get back with you. I doubt he'd care if you posted his reply in this thread either.


smile.gif
he has posted on this thread earlier yesterday. I'm replying to his post to me.
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy

It's not at all unreasonable to conclude that
FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of PH8A, 3387A, and 4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or XG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns
Could easily mean 99% of microns above 20. That is leaving it as open as the plains of Kansas.


Not if you understand what was said earlier. If every particle in the test oil was exactly 20.01 microns (still greater than 20, but just close enough to say it's 20 microns) in size, then only 1 out of every 100 that hit the media would pass through. Much larger particles (ie, 30, 50, 100 microns) would most likely all be stopped if only 1 in 100 20 microns particles gets through. If you go do some research on how the ISO 4548-12 test is conducted, you would see that real time particle counting of all sizes is being done during the multi-pass testing, which gives a constant readout of the efficiency of the filter at many particles sizes.

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
I know many of you haves hashed these things out probably add infinitum. It appears many just decided to blindly believe and the others just moved on because the data has not been published and made available. I haven't hashed it out yet and I'd like to know the answers. FRAM should be transparent to the consumer. This info isn't going to effect any kind of trade secret or give up some cutting edge technology. Just simple facts. What is the flow rate, maximum pressure, filtration efficiency at smaller micro sizes and the definite absolute micron size it can filter etc.


99.999% of the public doesn't care or doesn't even understand all those specs. If Motorking gets your request he'll probably give you those specs. He's a busy guy, so be HUMBLE (live your mantra) and don't be a pest.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy

It's not at all unreasonable to conclude that
FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of PH8A, 3387A, and 4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or XG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns
Could easily mean 99% of microns above 20. That is leaving it as open as the plains of Kansas.


Not if you understand what was said earlier. If every particle in the test oil was exactly 20.01 microns (still greater than 20, but just close enough to say it's 20 microns) in size, then only 1 out of every 100 that hit the media would pass through. Much larger particles (ie, 30, 50, 100 microns) would most likely all be stopped if only 1 in 100 20 microns particles gets through. If you go do some research on how the ISO 4548-12 test is conducted, you would see that real time particle counting of all sizes is being done during the multi-pass testing, which gives a constant readout of the efficiency of the filter at many particles sizes.

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
I know many of you haves hashed these things out probably add infinitum. It appears many just decided to blindly believe and the others just moved on because the data has not been published and made available. I haven't hashed it out yet and I'd like to know the answers. FRAM should be transparent to the consumer. This info isn't going to effect any kind of trade secret or give up some cutting edge technology. Just simple facts. What is the flow rate, maximum pressure, filtration efficiency at smaller micro sizes and the definite absolute micron size it can filter etc.


99.999% of the public doesn't care or doesn't even understand all those specs. If Motorking gets your request he'll probably give you those specs. He's a busy guy, so be HUMBLE (live your mantra) and don't be a pest.


Lol being humble doesn't mean living your life with your head in the sand or to overlook logic and simply go with other peoples illogical assumptions just because its the easy thing to do or because your emotions drive you to believe what you want to believe.
Thats called selective perception.
I understand that you have developed an emotional attachment to an ideal and that you have made a decision to abide by that theory at the expense of the truth.you want to believe that FRAM filters are 12 foot tall and bullet proof and it makes you feel safe and secure and all fuzzy and warm inside to have them on your vehicle.
That's fine, we all have our adult pacifiers.

Do what you need to do to pacify the scared little boy ego within.
Truth is FRAM filters will not influence the longevity of your cars motor either way, wether they filter to 40 microns or 20 absolute. So your safe with your tall tale enmeshment.

The fact that 99% to greater than 20 is wide open to possibilities remains the reality.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.

Agreed. There is a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread. In fact, it's worth than a train wreck, to the point that I must look away. When a calculus concept has been adapted for everyday algebraic use and people still don't understand it, particularly those with graduate degrees, it is clearly time that they sue their parents and their alma maters for the rats' nest that has been foisted upon them in the name of education.

To those who don't understand, I'm not explaining it. I don't teach Grade 6 math and don't plan to start today.
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Do what you need to do to pacify the scared little boy ego within. So your safe with your tall tale enmeshment.
Being humble does not match these statements either. For a fairly new member with such a statement in his signature, your postings do not seem to align with it.
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Wrong, Fram is correct in stating greater than, Wix is incorrect saying at 20. By your own reasoning at 20 means 20, not at 18 not 22. At means 20. The powder they dump in is not at 20 exactly, such powder does not exist except maybe in nature. The problem is English, at 20 as used here implies 20 and anything bigger. Why? Because everyone in the world knows a screen passing a certain size rock stops the bigger rocks too. Both terms mean exactly the same thing in the use they are intended for here. No difference except the Fram is more accurate.
Have you actually worked with micron sized measurements yourself, or just read about it? Big difference. I have a whole lot of experience measuring to single micron accuracy, so I know by experience and feel what it means.


Fram is correct in stating what they are stating however, those stating that Fram is 99% at 20 microns are incorrect. When you test anything you have an range of error, either with research bias, sample bias, or equipment precision. You account for that. You can still test to 20 microns and have +/-1, 2, or even 0.001 microns.

If you want some information in a user friendly (although commercial) source, I would suggest this:
https://www.horiba.com/fileadmin/uploads/Scientific/eMag/PSA/Guidebook/pdf/PSA_Guidebook.pdf

Note how you can fudge things widely with the "greater than" statement. You are correct, it is a problem of "language" partially with Fram's ambiguity and mostly with those interpreting Fram's claim.

When you capture 99% at 20 microns in the ISO 4548-12, you are capturing 99% of those particles at 20 microns (within the margin of error). When you are capturing 99% microns greater than 20 microns, it could be that all 99.9% are at 30 microns and only 90% at 20. Or 99% of the mass is made up from particles at 40 microns (as size and mass can have a correlation). So, with the "greater that" statement large particles could disproportionately make up a greater amount of the 99% so that the 99% at 20 microns is an inaccurate statement. So while Fram claims the ISO 4548-12, that test standard does NOT use the language of "greater than" so it is a gaping hole in making a direct argument.

At the end of the day, I (or anyone else) can't say that Fram filters or does not filter 99% at 20 microns because there is a lack of evidence to make that assertion.

Another example would be to ask if it was 55 degrees outside. One group says that it is 95 percent chance that it is 55 degrees (within the margin of error for their thermometer). Another group says it is a 99% chance it is 55 degrees or less. Which is more accurate. That is the issue with the statement.


FYI, I hold a research degree (piled higher and deeper) from a tier-one research institution, was funded through-out as a doctoral researcher (and post-doc) and published in NAS publications/documents. My field includes empirical research design, mixed-methods, statistics, consumer behavior, marketing within transportation planning so I can read everything from engineering documents to commercial propaganda. I look for those "grey areas" in the marketing material on transportation related subject (normally related to fuel economy, but elsewhere as well).
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Fixed your typo (in red) to start. This has been hashed over many times. If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.

When Fram says that their filter removes 99% of all particles >20 microns, then that is saying no matter what size the particles are from 20 microns and greater, for every 100 that hit the media, only 1 gets through. Even if that 1 particle was always 20 microns in size, the statement is still basically true. If the test dust was ALL 20.01 microns in size, and only 1 got through, then you would say the filter is basically "99% @ 20 microns". But since there are particles that are smaller and larger than 20 microns in the test oil, then I believe Fram uses the ">20 microns" statement to make people realize it's catching everything and small as 20 microns and greater. Most consumers aren't to up on filter efficiency and beta ratios, so I think Fram is trying to make it as simple as possible to understand.

If Fram could use the statement "99% at 20 microns and greater" it might sooth the hair splitting dudes that can't quite grasp that 20.01 microns is still larger than 20 through simple mathematical deduction.
grin.gif



If Fram said 20 and greater, then it would be a non-issue. I would agree with you that fram is 99% at 20. However, they do not say 99% and greater, they say "greater than 20". Which logically, is more consistent to say 20 or greater.

Wix could likely say 95% for particles greater than 5 microns... despite only having a 2=6 depending only being 50% at 6 if their sample includes a disproportionately sample of 30 micron particles (either in number or by mass). If it is mass (assuming equal density), then two 6 micron particles and two 30 micron particles could be a 84% efficiency if the filter only removes the 30 micron particles, if it caught 1 of those 6 micron particles (50% or 2=6), then it would be 92% efficiency.

Now, here is where Fram's > symbol is defeated. Assume we take 100 6 micron particles and 100 30 micron particles with an actual beta of 10/1000=6/30 (or 90% at 6 and 99.9 at 30). Thus would result in a combined efficiency of 99.0075% for particles greater than 5 (or 6) microns. You don't have to use special language to account for error when with standard testing at a given range.

That is the problem with stating Fram as 99% at 20 (or 20.01) microns. We do not know the actual beta and a beta of 90% could be going on but is essentially accurate to say 99% if you include the greater than modifier.

I agree that Fram's language is more consumer friendly, but it is less accurate and thus when we make comparisons between Wix's 95 @ 20 vs Frams 99 > 20 we can't make heads or tales. It could be 20.01, or 25, or even 100. We just dont know.

As I assert, it is not that Fram isn't filter 99% at 20, it is that we do not know what fram is filter at 20 because of their language. Yes, (depending on the instrumentation) as particles reach the target (20 in this case) there should be a "bell" developing that accounts for this. We see this on VOA with some samples having a volatility mass loss of 15.4 when the standard is 15 for SN oil. The oil might still within parameters. However, if the standard says 15 and then another company says greater than 15 (15 or higher), then that is not OK.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Agreed. There is a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread. In fact, it's worth than a train wreck, to the point that I must look away. When a calculus concept has been adapted for everyday algebraic use and people still don't understand it, particularly those with graduate degrees, it is clearly time that they sue their parents and their alma maters for the rats' nest that has been foisted upon them in the name of education.

To those who don't understand, I'm not explaining it. I don't teach Grade 6 math and don't plan to start today.


Be nice.
smile.gif
I know that it would be best that some that might align their thinking to my position could be more courteous but that does not mean that if you disagree you can sink to the same level of internet ad hominism...

I paid for every single dime of my graduate degrees. I may be relatively poor as a result, but I paid for and earned everything I got.

It is not mathematical... it is simple descriptive logic. Logic within the confines of language which lack supporting evidence. Anyone with a proper research background and hopefully those with common sense as well can see the ambiguity in the statement that makes "greater than 20" not necessary the same as if Fram said 20 and greater or at 20 microns.

Greater than 20 does not mean 20.01. It could be 20.01 to infinity.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Do what you need to do to pacify the scared little boy ego within. So your safe with your tall tale enmeshment.
Being humble does not match these statements either. For a fairly new member with such a statement in his signature, your postings do not seem to align with it.


Ya I suppose I could be a little nicer and acknowledged my own little reminder. He did call me a pest though.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Ya I suppose I could be a little nicer and acknowledged my own little reminder. He did call me a pest though.
smile.gif



I suppose we could ask Motorking if we could have the 4548-12 proof of 80% at 5 microns. Any other questions that relate to "=20" or ">20" is silly.
 
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