napa gold oil filters vs purolator classic filters

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
No one can test for exactly 20 micron only particles, the powder they add in the multi pass test has more variation than 1 micron. So Fram is right.


Actually, you can and you can account for some variation. The ISO 4548-12 is very specific for the particle size. Having particles of 18 microns making it past should not affect the 20 micron reading. Actually even only being speced for 20 microns, the filter should catch particles that are smaller (although fewer of those particles).

Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Dude,
Ask me a direct question about filtration. You want the beta ratio at every particle size tested for a given part number? I would be happy to supply but ONLY if you then request the same info from WIX of a comparable part number and publish them side by side.


Oh, so you are real

lol. You seem to be a legend in the minds of a couple around here. Did you get their distress call?

Haha just messing

.
my questions are these:
Why does fram list its efficiency rating based on greater than 20 microns?
Why doesn't fram list more specific specification details similar to how wix does?

 

[jhellwig]

So I changed the oil in my wife's car today. It had a Napa gold on it. I replaced it with an ac delco. Then I drank a soda and mowed the yard.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Dude,
Ask me a direct question about filtration. You want the beta ratio at every particle size tested for a given part number? I would be happy to supply but ONLY if you then request the same info from WIX of a comparable part number and publish them side by side.


Oh, so you are real

lol. You seem to be a legend in the minds of a couple around here. Did you get their distress call?

Haha just messing

.
my questions are these:
Why does fram list its efficiency rating based on greater than 20 microns?
Why doesn't fram list more specific specification details similar to how wix does?



You need to pay more attention to your signature.

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Dude,
Ask me a direct question about filtration. You want the beta ratio at every particle size tested for a given part number? I would be happy to supply but ONLY if you then request the same info from WIX of a comparable part number and publish them side by side.


Oh, so you are real

lol. You seem to be a legend in the minds of a couple around here. Did you get their distress call?

Haha just messing

.
my questions are these:
Why does fram list its efficiency rating based on greater than 20 microns?
Why doesn't fram list more specific specification details similar to how wix does?



You need to pay more attention to your signature.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
So I changed the oil in my wife's car today. It had a Napa gold on it. I replaced it with an ac delco. Then I drank a soda and mowed the yard.

Diet or regular? Instead of doing chores I was supposed to I came here and wasted my time talking about oil filters when I already have 10 sitting and change them about 3 per year on two cars. So I have 3 years of filters and I am not throwing them away so why am I worried about oil filters. Now I will start the chores. With the drought here there is little yard to mow. My mower has an oil filter on it. It is a Bosch premium.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.


No, completely incorrect claiming that >2 microns is the same as @ 20 microns.

We can sort bacterial size so a 20 micron bit of dirt is no issue. Microns might sound small but for a lot of applications they are excessively large.

This is why you use statistics with deviations around a mean.

So lets assume we are doing 20 microns, then we include the +/- error which will include 21, 22 micron particles as well as 19, and 18 micron particles (kept a bit simple). If you are are 99% or 100=20 you have to capture 99% of 18-22 sized particles... not 99% at greater than 20. That greater than part is what complete has folks false claiming that fram is 99% at 20 and a direct comparison can be made with Wix and their 95% at 20 micron claim.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
So I changed the oil in my wife's car today. It had a Napa gold on it. I replaced it with an ac delco. Then I drank a soda and mowed the yard.

Diet or regular? Instead of doing chores I was supposed to I came here and wasted my time talking about oil filters when I already have 10 sitting and change them about 3 per year on two cars. So I have 3 years of filters and I am not throwing them away so why am I worried about oil filters. Now I will start the chores. With the drought here there is little yard to mow. My mower has an oil filter on it. It is a Bosch premium.
I'm jealous, we're growing a rain forest (i.e. JUNGLE) here in the Ohio Valley-I could mow every 2 days if I felt like it (& it dried out enough)! My lawn mower has no oil filter, though, the Ultras are on the cars (XJ & xB). No Purolators anywhere!

 

[steveh]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Wow, with all due respect, you do not even know me sir.
1. We could not possibly make claims in print on boxes that are not true. Our competitors would be eating us alive in court if we did so. You have to have provable engineering data to support any claims on the box. Ask any lawyer, they will tell you the same.
2. I am not a salesman. I am a 35 yr ASE master technician who has owned a repair shop and worked in the auto parts industry in a variety of engineering, technical and marketing jobs.
Ask a direct question about a defined part number and I will gladly give you the information.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jay-buckley/8/a1/903 For a guy who is not a salesman he sure lists a strong sales and marketing background on Linkedin.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.


No, completely incorrect claiming that >2 microns is the same as @ 20 microns.

We can sort bacterial size so a 20 micron bit of dirt is no issue. Microns might sound small but for a lot of applications they are excessively large.

This is why you use statistics with deviations around a mean.

So lets assume we are doing 20 microns, then we include the +/- error which will include 21, 22 micron particles as well as 19, and 18 micron particles (kept a bit simple). If you are are 99% or 100=20 you have to capture 99% of 18-22 sized particles... not 99% at greater than 20. That greater than part is what complete has folks false claiming that fram is 99% at 20 and a direct comparison can be made with Wix and their 95% at 20 micron claim.

Wrong, Fram is correct in stating greater than, Wix is incorrect saying at 20. By your own reasoning at 20 means 20, not at 18 not 22. At means 20. The powder they dump in is not at 20 exactly, such powder does not exist except maybe in nature. The problem is English, at 20 as used here implies 20 and anything bigger. Why? Because everyone in the world knows a screen passing a certain size rock stops the bigger rocks too. Both terms mean exactly the same thing in the use they are intended for here. No difference except the Fram is more accurate.
Have you actually worked with micron sized measurements yourself, or just read about it? Big difference. I have a whole lot of experience measuring to single micron accuracy, so I know by experience and feel what it means.

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Yep I see sales marketing and social media is prevalent.

I would be satisfied if FRAM would just publish the equal amount of info for their specs as wix does for theirs. Even if it turned out inferior to wix I'd go by fu filters and put them on all my vehicles just because they were straight up.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
So I changed the oil in my wife's car today. It had a Napa gold on it. I replaced it with an ac delco. Then I drank a soda and mowed the yard.

Diet or regular? Instead of doing chores I was supposed to I came here and wasted my time talking about oil filters when I already have 10 sitting and change them about 3 per year on two cars. So I have 3 years of filters and I am not throwing them away so why am I worried about oil filters. Now I will start the chores. With the drought here there is little yard to mow. My mower has an oil filter on it. It is a Bosch premium.
I'm jealous, we're growing a rain forest (i.e. JUNGLE) here in the Ohio Valley-I could mow every 2 days if I felt like it (& it dried out enough)! My lawn mower has no oil filter, though, the Ultras are on the cars (XJ & xB). No Purolators anywhere!

My mower is a John Deere Green Machine with a Robin 6hp engine. It must have been made only a very short time, very heavy duty commercial unit. It takes the same filter as my Toyota. I was born in Illinois so have relatives there who send pictures. I am the one jealous of all the greenery, bone dry here, dead lawns. I have a small patch of green to mow with my commercial duty mower, under a pepper tree. The tree must suck water up from the ground. If no rain this year, it will get serious and not just for those living here.

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Explain how they measure a 19 micron versus a 21 or 22 micron particle. It is easy to say it, how to do it is another thing. Powders aren't available to 1 micron accuracy. One reason is the particles are not little equal spheres. They are jagged little rocks. Another reason is what machine can measure a 20 micron sphere to within 1 micron. The Fram statement is correct, the others saying at 20 microns implies the same thing and means exactly the same thing. There is nothing to argue about between the way the companies say it.


No, completely incorrect claiming that >2 microns is the same as @ 20 microns.

We can sort bacterial size so a 20 micron bit of dirt is no issue. Microns might sound small but for a lot of applications they are excessively large.

This is why you use statistics with deviations around a mean.

So lets assume we are doing 20 microns, then we include the +/- error which will include 21, 22 micron particles as well as 19, and 18 micron particles (kept a bit simple). If you are are 99% or 100=20 you have to capture 99% of 18-22 sized particles... not 99% at greater than 20. That greater than part is what complete has folks false claiming that fram is 99% at 20 and a direct comparison can be made with Wix and their 95% at 20 micron claim.

Wrong, Fram is correct in stating greater than, Wix is incorrect saying at 20. By your own reasoning at 20 means 20, not at 18 not 22. At means 20. The powder they dump in is not at 20 exactly, such powder does not exist except maybe in nature. The problem is English, at 20 as used here implies 20 and anything bigger. Why? Because everyone in the world knows a screen passing a certain size rock stops the bigger rocks too. Both terms mean exactly the same thing in the use they are intended for here. No difference except the Fram is more accurate.
Have you actually worked with micron sized measurements yourself, or just read about it? Big difference. I have a whole lot of experience measuring to single micron accuracy, so I know by experience and feel what it means.


I believe I've read that a filter media is such that the passages in the material vary in size,enabling various different size particals to pass depending on where in the media the particals are trying to pass. Sorta a hit and miss. However, at absolute the media has to be able to catch nearly all particals at the specific size targeted.

Am I rights?

 

[goodtimes]

The site is lucky Motorking comes here, does Mann/Hummel send someone? No. He has explained a lot and I have learned the screen on the ultra is stainless steel, the TRD and RP are similar and made by Fram now, and a few other hard to find without an insider tidbits. Thanks go to him, for his time spent.

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

$$cha-ching$$
Yes from what I gather he's done what he's employed to do well.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
$$cha-ching$$
Yes from what I gather he's done what he's employed to do well.


I suggest you look at Motorkings signature and email him directly. He's very busy so even though he posted here today he might not get a chance to follow back up as quickly as the rest of us.

 

[steveh]

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
$$cha-ching$$
Yes from what I gather he's done what he's employed to do well.
Motorking is a excellent snake oil salesman!!!

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
$$cha-ching$$
Yes from what I gather he's done what he's employed to do well.


I suggest you look at Motorkings signature and email him directly. He's very busy so even though he posted here today he might not get a chance to follow back up as quickly as the rest of us.


Ugh, I seriously doubt he will provide anymore published info than can already be had by the public but I will hit him up and see.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
$$cha-ching$$
Yes from what I gather he's done what he's employed to do well.


I suggest you look at Motorkings signature and email him directly. He's very busy so even though he posted here today he might not get a chance to follow back up as quickly as the rest of us.


Ugh, I seriously doubt he will provide anymore published info than can already be had by the public but I will hit him up and see.


He will answer questions by email. I have asked him and he provided delta p and flow data for the Ultra pertaining to usage in a Subaru.

 

[901Memphis]

He can give you a ton of information if you have a specific part number available to question.