99% @ 20 microns = 99% > 20 microns = 99% = or > 20 microns when using the same test, same added powder, same powder vendor, etc. Just different, and a little loose, lingo to say the same thing. All say or imply 20 microns or any size over in the powder. There is no such powder made of precise 20 micron spheres. If there was, which there isn't, it would be a different test. Right?
napa gold oil filters vs purolator classic filters
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Greater than 20 does not mean 20.01. It could be 20.01 to infinity.
Greater than 20 means all greater than 20 (+/- whatever error bar there is in the test), up to infinity. That's a mathematical definition with no ambiguity. And any marketer (or anyone else) who's tried to fudge that when dealing with me in any of my businesses has walked away with some rather sore eardrums. And I don't apologize for telling them that they're innumerate, either. When someone comes out with mathematical nonsense, I will tell them. That's not ad hominem at all.
As for logic, logic would also tell us that other companies, notably competitors, have tested Fram's claims. Logic further tells us that if >20 microns in this case means 25 microns or 30 microns, the competitors would be shouting this from the rooftops since, despite my disapproval, Fram is the big name in the filtering world.
Logic also states that there could be no filter element in the cans at all, since particles that cannot pass the holes are >20 microns and all of them will be stopped. The only reason we see filter elements in the Fram Ultras cut apart by BITOGers is because of the same statistical anomaly that made BITOGers the only people subject to Purolator tears, a problem that doesn't really exist, either, right?
Greater than 20 does not mean 20.01. It could be 20.01 to infinity.
Greater than 20 means all greater than 20 (+/- whatever error bar there is in the test), up to infinity. That's a mathematical definition with no ambiguity. And any marketer (or anyone else) who's tried to fudge that when dealing with me in any of my businesses has walked away with some rather sore eardrums. And I don't apologize for telling them that they're innumerate, either. When someone comes out with mathematical nonsense, I will tell them. That's not ad hominem at all.
As for logic, logic would also tell us that other companies, notably competitors, have tested Fram's claims. Logic further tells us that if >20 microns in this case means 25 microns or 30 microns, the competitors would be shouting this from the rooftops since, despite my disapproval, Fram is the big name in the filtering world.
Logic also states that there could be no filter element in the cans at all, since particles that cannot pass the holes are >20 microns and all of them will be stopped. The only reason we see filter elements in the Fram Ultras cut apart by BITOGers is because of the same statistical anomaly that made BITOGers the only people subject to Purolator tears, a problem that doesn't really exist, either, right?
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Ya I suppose I could be a little nicer and acknowledged my own little reminder. He did call me a pest though.
I suppose we could ask Motorking if we could have the 4548-12 proof of 80% at 5 microns. Any other questions that relate to "=20" or ">20" is silly.
Why is it silly?
I'll bet my left nut he provides you no more published info than is already available.
As far as the 99% at greater than 20 microns, well, I don't know how to help some people understand how that does not lead to a definite figure but that its left open. Most likely it was carefully stated that way by legally minded people for accountability purposes.
You know the saying "trust me I work for the government"? Well, FRAM is saying "trust us we want to sale you our products".
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Ya I suppose I could be a little nicer and acknowledged my own little reminder. He did call me a pest though.
I suppose we could ask Motorking if we could have the 4548-12 proof of 80% at 5 microns. Any other questions that relate to "=20" or ">20" is silly.
Why is it silly?
I'll bet my left nut he provides you no more published info than is already available.
As far as the 99% at greater than 20 microns, well, I don't know how to help some people understand how that does not lead to a definite figure but that its left open. Most likely it was carefully stated that way by legally minded people for accountability purposes.
You know the saying "trust me I work for the government"? Well, FRAM is saying "trust us we want to sale you our products".
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Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question.
He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info.
Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question.
He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info.
Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question.
He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info.
Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The leader of the cult is really good at brainwashing some people!!!
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question.
He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info.
Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The leader of the cult is really good at brainwashing some people!!!
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
You know the saying "trust me I work for the government"? Well, FRAM is saying "trust us we want to sale you our products".
self portrait?
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
You know the saying "trust me I work for the government"? Well, FRAM is saying "trust us we want to sale you our products".
self portrait?
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Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question. He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info. Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The person that I do trust regarding all of the items you note here is Jim Allen who has done more testing of oil and filters than the lot of us combined. Jim left the board because of the myriad of members who insisted on arguing past the point of good sense or refuse to accept facts when they are right in front of their faces--a huge loss to the knowledge pool on this board IMHO!
With that said, he visited more than a few labs that tested the "plastic valve" as you state for over 1 million openings and closings without a single failure. I was a skeptic about this attribute too, but Jim informed all of us the valve is not just plastic and coupled with the fact that bypass events almost never happen, it is a complete non-issue. Same for the paper end-caps--if one truly understands their function, they are also a non-issue--to the point of many manufacturers not using end caps at all. For the synthetic media, there is plenty of third party information about flow rates and efficiency of synthetic media versus cellulose that at this point the discussions about them are simply ad nauseam.
The fact remains that no matter how much any of us dislike FRAM, Purolator, WIX and all their "white" label products, there have been FAR too many engines use these filters through the years with only a miniscule fraction of any of them developing an oil filter related problem. To be brutally honest, engines in the 60s, 70s, and 80s were pure garbage compared to the engines of today and if those engines survived using the oil and filters of yesterday, then today's engines will comparatively last forever. All of the noise is just giving us things to discuss--never learning or moving on.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question. He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info. Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The person that I do trust regarding all of the items you note here is Jim Allen who has done more testing of oil and filters than the lot of us combined. Jim left the board because of the myriad of members who insisted on arguing past the point of good sense or refuse to accept facts when they are right in front of their faces--a huge loss to the knowledge pool on this board IMHO!
With that said, he visited more than a few labs that tested the "plastic valve" as you state for over 1 million openings and closings without a single failure. I was a skeptic about this attribute too, but Jim informed all of us the valve is not just plastic and coupled with the fact that bypass events almost never happen, it is a complete non-issue. Same for the paper end-caps--if one truly understands their function, they are also a non-issue--to the point of many manufacturers not using end caps at all. For the synthetic media, there is plenty of third party information about flow rates and efficiency of synthetic media versus cellulose that at this point the discussions about them are simply ad nauseam.
The fact remains that no matter how much any of us dislike FRAM, Purolator, WIX and all their "white" label products, there have been FAR too many engines use these filters through the years with only a miniscule fraction of any of them developing an oil filter related problem. To be brutally honest, engines in the 60s, 70s, and 80s were pure garbage compared to the engines of today and if those engines survived using the oil and filters of yesterday, then today's engines will comparatively last forever. All of the noise is just giving us things to discuss--never learning or moving on.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question. He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info. Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The person that I do trust regarding all of the items you note here is Jim Allen who has done more testing of oil and filters than the lot of us combined. Jim left the board because of the myriad of members who insisted on arguing past the point of good sense or refuse to accept facts when they are right in front of their faces--a huge loss to the knowledge pool on this board IMHO!
With that said, he visited more than a few labs that tested the "plastic valve" as you state for over 1 million openings and closings without a single failure. I was a skeptic about this attribute too, but Jim informed all of us the valve is not just plastic and coupled with the fact that bypass events almost never happen, it is a complete non-issue. Same for the paper end-caps--if one truly understands their function, they are also a non-issue--to the point of many manufacturers not using end caps at all. For the synthetic media, there is plenty of third party information about flow rates and efficiency of synthetic media versus cellulose that at this point the discussions about them are simply ad nauseam.
The fact remains that no matter how much any of us dislike FRAM, Purolator, WIX and all their "white" label products, there have been FAR too many engines use these filters through the years with only a miniscule fraction of any of them developing an oil filter related problem. To be brutally honest, engines in the 60s, 70s, and 80s were pure garbage compared to the engines of today and if those engines survived using the oil and filters of yesterday, then today's engines will comparatively last forever. All of the noise is just giving us things to discuss--never learning or moving on.
I can agree that all these filters are fine to use, to put what you said in my own words.
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Maybe someone should ask Motorking how much longer an engine will run using an Ultra in lieu of a competitor's OE replacement.
Well he's convinced several people that somehow paper end caps are as good as metal and that 99% at greater than 20 applies to all micron sizes over 20 without question. He's also convinced them that fu has superb flow ability simply because it has a synthetic media and that he cant share any published data to support these claims because that's somehow proprietary info. Has he addressed the plastic pv valves?
The person that I do trust regarding all of the items you note here is Jim Allen who has done more testing of oil and filters than the lot of us combined. Jim left the board because of the myriad of members who insisted on arguing past the point of good sense or refuse to accept facts when they are right in front of their faces--a huge loss to the knowledge pool on this board IMHO!
With that said, he visited more than a few labs that tested the "plastic valve" as you state for over 1 million openings and closings without a single failure. I was a skeptic about this attribute too, but Jim informed all of us the valve is not just plastic and coupled with the fact that bypass events almost never happen, it is a complete non-issue. Same for the paper end-caps--if one truly understands their function, they are also a non-issue--to the point of many manufacturers not using end caps at all. For the synthetic media, there is plenty of third party information about flow rates and efficiency of synthetic media versus cellulose that at this point the discussions about them are simply ad nauseam.
The fact remains that no matter how much any of us dislike FRAM, Purolator, WIX and all their "white" label products, there have been FAR too many engines use these filters through the years with only a miniscule fraction of any of them developing an oil filter related problem. To be brutally honest, engines in the 60s, 70s, and 80s were pure garbage compared to the engines of today and if those engines survived using the oil and filters of yesterday, then today's engines will comparatively last forever. All of the noise is just giving us things to discuss--never learning or moving on.
I can agree that all these filters are fine to use, to put what you said in my own words.
I woulda thought the function of the endcaps are to help create an enclosure along with the media and core. This so the filtered oil passes on through and prevents mixing with unfiltered oil.
You got me curious now
You got me curious now
I asked Jay a few questions about the ultra also and he got back to me pretty quick and im sure he will get back to you as soon as he signs on. Im sure he is a busy guy. I was hoping another filter company would do the same thing as Jay is doing but it does not seem to be happening.
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Lol being humble doesn't mean living your life with your head in the sand or to overlook logic and simply go with other peoples illogical assumptions just because its the easy thing to do or because your emotions drive you to believe what you want to believe.
Thats called selective perception.
I understand that you have developed an emotional attachment to an ideal and that you have made a decision to abide by that theory at the expense of the truth.you want to believe that FRAM filters are 12 foot tall and bullet proof and it makes you feel safe and secure and all fuzzy and warm inside to have them on your vehicle.
That's fine, we all have our adult pacifiers.
Do what you need to do to pacify the scared little boy ego within.
Truth is FRAM filters will not influence the longevity of your cars motor either way, wether they filter to 40 microns or 20 absolute. So your safe with your tall tale enmeshment.
The fact that 99% to greater than 20 is wide open to possibilities remains the reality
Don't be so condescending when you don't really know what you're talking about. You better change your signature to something like "condescending troll". LoL
Lol being humble doesn't mean living your life with your head in the sand or to overlook logic and simply go with other peoples illogical assumptions just because its the easy thing to do or because your emotions drive you to believe what you want to believe.
Thats called selective perception.
I understand that you have developed an emotional attachment to an ideal and that you have made a decision to abide by that theory at the expense of the truth.you want to believe that FRAM filters are 12 foot tall and bullet proof and it makes you feel safe and secure and all fuzzy and warm inside to have them on your vehicle.
That's fine, we all have our adult pacifiers.
Do what you need to do to pacify the scared little boy ego within.
Truth is FRAM filters will not influence the longevity of your cars motor either way, wether they filter to 40 microns or 20 absolute. So your safe with your tall tale enmeshment.
The fact that 99% to greater than 20 is wide open to possibilities remains the reality
Don't be so condescending when you don't really know what you're talking about. You better change your signature to something like "condescending troll". LoL
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.
Agreed. There is a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread. In fact, it's worth than a train wreck, to the point that I must look away. When a calculus concept has been adapted for everyday algebraic use and people still don't understand it, particularly those with graduate degrees, it is clearly time that they sue their parents and their alma maters for the rats' nest that has been foisted upon them in the name of education.
To those who don't understand, I'm not explaining it. I don't teach Grade 6 math and don't plan to start today.
LoL ... +100.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you have any mathematical background at all, you will know for all practical purposes that as the particle size approaches 20 microns that the limit becomes, for all practical purposes, equal to, or "@20" microns.
Agreed. There is a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread. In fact, it's worth than a train wreck, to the point that I must look away. When a calculus concept has been adapted for everyday algebraic use and people still don't understand it, particularly those with graduate degrees, it is clearly time that they sue their parents and their alma maters for the rats' nest that has been foisted upon them in the name of education.
To those who don't understand, I'm not explaining it. I don't teach Grade 6 math and don't plan to start today.
LoL ... +100.
Oh haha, did I hurt your feelings? That's 2 name callings out you now. You called me a pest and a troll. Keep it up and your gonna have to go sit in the corner.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Oh haha, did I hurt your feelings? That's 2 name callings out you now. You called me a pest and a troll. Keep it up and your gonna have to go sit in the corner.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
Go back and read ... I said "don't be a pest", not that you were a pest ... yet.
Stop trolling ... or you will be known as one in short order. Half way there already.
Humble my arse ...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humble
Oh haha, did I hurt your feelings? That's 2 name callings out you now. You called me a pest and a troll. Keep it up and your gonna have to go sit in the corner.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
Go back and read ... I said "don't be a pest", not that you were a pest ... yet.
Stop trolling ... or you will be known as one in short order. Half way there already.
Humble my arse ...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humble
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Oh haha, did I hurt your feelings? That's 2 name callings out you now. You called me a pest and a troll. Keep it up and your gonna have to go sit in the corner.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
Go back and read ... I said "don't be a pest", not that you were a pest ... yet.
Stop trolling ... or you will be known as one in short order. Half way there already.
Humble my arse ...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humble
I accept your apology now get back on topic.
My vote is for Napa gold for its stellar design and solid build. Also for its greater than sufficient filtration efficiency.
I do believe Purolator will be back though.
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Oh haha, did I hurt your feelings? That's 2 name callings out you now. You called me a pest and a troll. Keep it up and your gonna have to go sit in the corner.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or ego or something. If I could id give you a hug.
Go back and read ... I said "don't be a pest", not that you were a pest ... yet.
Stop trolling ... or you will be known as one in short order. Half way there already.
Humble my arse ...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humble
I accept your apology now get back on topic.
My vote is for Napa gold for its stellar design and solid build. Also for its greater than sufficient filtration efficiency.
I do believe Purolator will be back though.
Also I think wix /Napa and m1 prove that you can get excellent filter efficiency and mileage out of a cellulose glass blend and that a full synthetic media isn't really necessary.
M1 seems fine for beyond its 15k suggested use. Imo Napa gold/wix is plenty capable of 10k oci
M1 seems fine for beyond its 15k suggested use. Imo Napa gold/wix is plenty capable of 10k oci
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
As far as the 99% at greater than 20 microns, well, I don't know how to help some people understand how that does not lead to a definite figure but that its left open. Most likely it was carefully stated that way by legally minded people for accountability purposes.
Here we go again. What legal accountability would Fram face if the competition tested the XG and found it only filtered 95% at 20.0000001 microns? Technically, it did not filter 99% at greater than 20 microns. Tests are standardized, as is the methodology for interpreting the results. If you're worried about fine print and legalize, concern yourself more that this is a representative number that may not correspond to every Fram Ultra model number out there.
There's a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread, as I already stated. It's absolutely ridiculous that the innumeracy being spread in this thread is so bad that I'm defending an entire line of oil filtration products I've never purchased or used in my life.
If you don't like Fram, don't buy them. If you don't trust the numbers, don't buy Fram. If you don't understand the mathematics, ask someone. Don't ask me, though, because I've already explained it several times over the past few months. I'll just suggest that you leave a bag of burning doggie doodoo on your Grade 6 math teacher's door step and ring the bell, since he failed you miserably.
As far as the 99% at greater than 20 microns, well, I don't know how to help some people understand how that does not lead to a definite figure but that its left open. Most likely it was carefully stated that way by legally minded people for accountability purposes.
Here we go again. What legal accountability would Fram face if the competition tested the XG and found it only filtered 95% at 20.0000001 microns? Technically, it did not filter 99% at greater than 20 microns. Tests are standardized, as is the methodology for interpreting the results. If you're worried about fine print and legalize, concern yourself more that this is a representative number that may not correspond to every Fram Ultra model number out there.
There's a lot of mathematical nonsense being spouted in this thread, as I already stated. It's absolutely ridiculous that the innumeracy being spread in this thread is so bad that I'm defending an entire line of oil filtration products I've never purchased or used in my life.
If you don't like Fram, don't buy them. If you don't trust the numbers, don't buy Fram. If you don't understand the mathematics, ask someone. Don't ask me, though, because I've already explained it several times over the past few months. I'll just suggest that you leave a bag of burning doggie doodoo on your Grade 6 math teacher's door step and ring the bell, since he failed you miserably.
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