my first engine build- observations and challenges

[tomcat27]

I removed the 351W from my 1970 Cougar a week ago. I will post pictures later, but I observed the following:
- cylinders looked good, with only a slight ridge
- I'm not capable of measuring the bores accurately
- no sludge or deposits in the engine
- timing chain was very loose
- one broken piston ring
- the upper rod bearings have anywhere from 0-30% of the copper showing. the bearings actually have a Ford logo on them!
- I only broke one bolt during the entire process: one of the exhaust manifold studs for the mid-pipe. broke one extension and one 1/2" drive ratchet.
questions:
-does anyone just do a "re-ring"? I'm tempted, but mostly to save on the machine shop costs, not the cost of new parts

addl observations:
-I can purchase a remanufactured engine cheaper than I can get the block and heads machined. !!??

I'd like to install a 408 or 393 stroker kit, and I can get them balanced; but the first 3 machine shops that I talked to urged me to let them assemble it.

oh... Probably around 100k miles on the engine. according to the odometer. the engine condition seems to support that. I've had the car since 92, but I am not the original owner. I used Quaker State and Vavoline 10W-30 early on. been using HDEO 15w-40 lately.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27
I removed the 351W from my 1970 Cougar a week ago. I will post pictures later, but I observed the following:
- cylinders looked good, with only a slight ridge
- I'm not capable of measuring the bores accurately
- no sludge or deposits in the engine
- timing chain was very loose
- one broken piston ring
- the upper rod bearings have anywhere from 0-30% of the copper showing. the bearings actually have a Ford logo on them!


Pretty typical of a well-cared-for un-opened late '60s V8. The 440 in my '69 R/T looked almost the same when I opened it up at 140k miles, minus the broken ring and what I'd describe as "no ridge I could feel". Bearings looked just like you describe, I still have a main and rod on my office shelf (and a cupped lifter from the wiped cam lobe-see below) as conversation pieces. At the time I was assuming it had been worked on, but the pistons were OEM P/Ns, and the bearings had factory logos. The lack of sludge really indicates good care, because the early 70s oils were not going to do that without frequent changes! I chose not to do a full overhaul and left the stock pistons in the holes. I did new bearings from below, new cam because it had wiped a lobe on a cheap "performance" cam a previous owner had put in- which was why it was open in the first place, and hardened valve seats in the heads and its still going strong.

Quote:

-does anyone just do a "re-ring"? I'm tempted, but mostly to save on the machine shop costs, not the cost of new parts


People used to do it a lot to squeak another 20-30k out of an engine, but IMO its a waste of money. A rule of thumb used to be 'a ridge that will catch a fingernail is too big to re-ring.' But even that risks poor cylinder sealing and short life with high oil consumption- you've gone to the expense of opening it up, you might as well do it once and do it right, or else do what I did and don't touch the pistons and rings. Definitely DO NOT build a stroker by just re-ringing (even if you could find the pistons that would work with the standard bore...). The ring pack won't hit TDC in the same place, and if it kisses the ridge, kiss your top rings goodbye.

Quote:

addl observations:
-I can purchase a remanufactured engine cheaper than I can get the block and heads machined. !!??


Yes, but bulk remanufactured engines don't have the most stellar reputation for quality of assembly, fit, and finish. You might get a great one, you might get one that will be smoking blue (or worse) in 10k miles.

Quote:
I'd like to install a 408 or 393 stroker kit, and I can get them balanced; but the first 3 machine shops that I talked to urged me to let them assemble it.


A stroker isn't something I'd want to tackle as my first precision engine assembly. Everything has to be checked and checked precisely, if you're up to it and are willing to buy the micrometers, dial indicators, cam degreeing kit/wheel, etc. then sure you can do it. But unless you just want the experience, its probably cheaper to pay someone to do it.

 

[artificialist]

You might be able to get a reman engine for less than a machine shop charges, but you never know what parts are inside a discount reman engine and how precisely the machining work was done. Also, you don't know what old parts are kept and which ones were replaced.

You may need to grind metal off the block to make room for the stroker kit. I can understand why an automotive machinist would recommend not DIY-ing that procedure. Pay attention to steps 15 through 21 to get and example of this process. They are using a Chevy 454 engine as an example, but this applies to many engines that are getting stroker kits.

There are a few other reasons for DIY-ing the rebuild or getting a machinist to do it:
1. Collector cars are worth more when they are "Numbers matching." That means having the same block and heads that it left the factory with.
2. You get to choose what cam you get. Some of the newer cam profiles let you have more horsepower without losing low end torque and vacuum at idle. You also have the ability to order a cam with surface treatments to aid durability. If you are ready to spend much more money to get performance, you can buy a roller lifter conversion set. Since you want a basic rebuild, I suggest buying a new hydraulic flat lifter cam.

 

[Eddie]

One option I've used: Remove any cylinder ridge if there is one. Hone cylinders to remove the polish, install new rings and connecting rod bearings and your good to go. Ed

 

[holdorf333]

fwiw, I've dealt with a reman engine (Jasper Ford 3.0) and I can tell you it was the biggest waste of time and money I have ever experienced in my 34 years. I had 3 engines in 45k miles, and while technically under "warranty" the amount of down-time, additional shop costs, and time spent literally conducting warfare with the customer service department* was enough to discount any rebuilt engine ever again.

*every excuse to not warranty the engines was consistently applied and had to be proven false at my expense by the shop trying to warranty the engine, and every delay in payment and decision making in general occurred with clockwork regularity. I no longer have the receipts, but I remember my wife added up what the "warranty" replacements ended up costing out of pocket... $4,570. I'll never forget the stress and frustration and would hate for you to endure the same.

 

[cmhj]

Rebuild it and do it right.

 

[86cutlass307]

I would do the job with a friend that had access to and experience with precision measurement tools...micrometers, bore gauges, etc. I know the temptation to rering is enticing but doing a rebuild the right way will ensure a long life for your engine. A machinist you trust is of utmost importance, ask people that have had work done at several shops or - check on forums dedicated to your vehicle manufacturer. Not all machinists are created equal...not trying to start a $hat storm but I have a long history of automotive, motorcycle and aerospace maintenance history to back up my statement.

Doing your rebuild the right way will allow your machinist to set up the internal clearances where they need to be to allow for proper lubrication and to prevent scuffing/seizure or overheating and apply proper surface finishes as well. There are different piston alloys to account for, different ring packs and materials to finish cylinder walls for, etc. I know it costs more, but if you use dollar/cost averaging you will be thankful you spent the money up front. Thanks for trying to keep that Detroit iron alive; they aren't making any more of those! Good luck!

 

[bdcardinal]

Rebuild it right. Use ARP studs wherever they are offered, use a Melling oil pump and smooth out all the transitions, Glyptal the valley and front, change the timing set to a double roller. For bearings use the coated Clevites. If replacing the pistons, use Mahle if possible.

 

[addyguy]

I'd keep the numbers-matching engine with the car for sure. Not many left with the actual original engine.

If you want power, you can get a lot of power out of a well-built 351, and still keep the original appearance and numbers matching status.

Mild over-bore, new higher-compression pistons, a modern roller cam, and proper cylinder head re-build and you are easily pushing 450hp, maybe more, I'm not an expert.

 

[crazyoildude]

let them bore the block and assemble it if you are sure they are a quality shop it will make a difference We did hundreds of engines for shops over the years and that is usually the way to go.. Talk to the shop and look around some engine shops are not so neat but some of them are really good. My shop was not always the nicest inside but we did great work part of my shop where we kept about 120 engines and all kinds of heads on the inside was last painted by my grandfather in 1967-68 and the color was this ugly green...lol

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
let them bore the block and assemble it if you are sure they are a quality shop it will make a difference We did hundreds of engines for shops over the years and that is usually the way to go.. Talk to the shop and look around some engine shops are not so neat but some of them are really good. My shop was not always the nicest inside but we did great work part of my shop where we kept about 120 engines and all kinds of heads on the inside was last painted by my grandfather in 1967-68 and the color was this ugly green...lol


A small third generation shop like the one in my family can do things to an engine that we can only enjoy! And not just power but longevity.

And totally agreed it ain't the building or the landscaping doing any of the good work. It takes years and years of experience to appreciate this 'art". I applaud anyone doing good work!

 

[Kawiguy454]

your situation is not new. Figure out how much power you want and how much money you have then you should be able to find the right parts lists online to meet your goal.

With knowledge of what you want find trusted local speed shops to work with. They should be able to tell you how far out the cylinders are and the condition of the heads to move forward.

 

[tomcat27]

so far, finding a shop has been a challenge. I don't have anyone to provide references that pan out. Yesterday I toured a local shop that is an AERA member, and gets glowing reviews from his boating customers - his specialty is big, fast, boat engines. and certainly he is a GM expert and not much for Fords. Regardless, I did feel that he can build a good solid engine that will stay together...

 

[bdcardinal]

Do you have any dirt tracks with weekly races? Go to the pit area and ask the guys running Fords who they use.

 

[Merkava_4]

Where in the Midwest do you live ? I know an excellent machinist out that way.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27
so far, finding a shop has been a challenge. I don't have anyone to provide references that pan out. Yesterday I toured a local shop that is an AERA member, and gets glowing reviews from his boating customers - his specialty is big, fast, boat engines. and certainly he is a GM expert and not much for Fords. Regardless, I did feel that he can build a good solid engine that will stay together...
Guys that specialize in older American V8 engines typically can work on Fords as easily as they can work on other older American V8 engines.

That in mind, I suggest you read some Ford forums because the engine may have some quirks that a machinist should know.

 

[tomcat27]

Halfway between Chicago and Milwaukee. although I do go to Michigan alot. both upper and lower peninsula.

 

[Srt20]

NVR in Butler, WI
Powersource in Ingleside IL
Motor Masters in Hartford WI
Tiry's race engines in Ripon WI


Just some off the top of my head that a top notch engine shops in S WI area. These places all build race engines and have excellent reputations in the Midwest racing scene. These are not the cheapest places you will find, they are places that will do it right.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27
Halfway between Chicago and Milwaukee. although I do go to Michigan alot. both upper and lower peninsula.


If you lived a little bit closer to South East Missouri, I'd hook you up.

 

[Kruse]

A couple of thoughts:
Your broken piston ring was probably because the top side of the bore was too large. Most timing chains from that era are sloppy would jump a tooth by 100K miles. Unless you are going racing, avoid the stroker. (There are better chassis setups out there for racing) Be very cautious about using engine studs on this application. Sometimes they won't allow you to do a simple pulling of the head because the head will hit other items in the engine compartment before it can be released from the engine.
I've got a 351C '71 Cougar with about 70K miles, all original.
I would NEVER just throw in a big-name reman engine in that car. They all use the cheapest parts possible and most of their parts will probably be from China.
If you have no mechanical ability, get with a local rebuilder that will use name-brand parts. The cost will be higher, but you will feel better about your rebuild. There is some good advice already posted here. Talk to your local rebuilder to get some ideas about what you want to do with this car, but do it right and don't cut corners.