2000 4Runner needing injectors for 3rd time

[Goodkat]

2000 4Runner is needing injectors for the 3rd time in a year...some bad luck with rebuilds?

As the title states, I'm headed towards my third set of injectors in the past year. Last May I threw a code for P0172 (bank too rich). I bought the 4Runner in 2018 with 201k miles on it, and the private seller had put a full set of new injectors in it. When I pulled them out last May, they looked like a cheap set, probably from a box store or Rock Auto; something India made. I can't blame them I guess since they were selling $5k vehicle, and a garage did the work so it was probably out of their control. It now has 251,xxx miles on it.

I use genuine TOYOTA parts from Ourisman Toyota in Richmond VA. In the past couple of years I have replaced:
- TPS
- IAC valve
- all new Denso coils
- Sumitomo plug wire set
- New NGK Plugs
- Cleaned the MAF sensor
- Magniflow cat-back exhaust
- new fuel pump, pick-up tube, sock filter, and sending unit
-the fuel filter back around 2019

Last May when I did the injectors I replaced the valve cover gaskets, PCV valve, fuel pressure regulator, O2 sensors, and the engine looked excellent inside given the mileage. It still doesn't burn oil and there are no signs of coolant issues. I used Motor West Performance injectors for the replacement. The repair went well, it ran great, my MPG went up a bit, and the code went away.

5 months later in October I got a P0172, again, and MWP sent me a new set with new intake plenum/manifold gaskets, and fuel rail banjo bolt seals. Again, the code went away and it ran great. I'm getting quite good at getting the injectors replaced quickly. I'm very careful inserting the new injectors using the provided lubricant, to not cut the o-rings, and also careful to not be sloppy with getting the lubricant where it doesn't belong.

The other day my Runner stumbled a bit at high idle after starting, and it surged a few times on me. I now had a good idea what was happening as this happened the other times as well. Yesterday my LTFT was is at -32.xx% and it actually died on my at my house, but it started right up. The LTFT was in this range the other times as well. If it does through a CEL it has only been for the P0172. Every time after the repair, my STFT and LTFT go back into the -10% to +10% range, and I monitor it for about 2 weeks until I feel confident its fixed. In that time it runs fine, and get 17.5-19.25 MPG.

Am I just having bad luck with "remanufactured" injectors? I know MWP has a good reputation, but I can't come to any other conclusion other than I keep getting injectors from them, and at least one fails after a few months. I know it may not be likely given their reputation, but it's also not impossible, and this is getting OLD. I read on the IH8 Mud forums that Denso fuel injectors are not truely rebuildable because they are a sealed unit. They can be cleaned, screens replaced, replace o-rings, and tested, but they can't replace the solenoids, coils, pintle, return springs, or valves. If this is true, this is a great point and piece of knowledge.

page 2, post #24
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/refurbished-fuel-injectors.1225257/page-2


The reason I believe that its a bad fuel injector, and at this point not another issue, is that new injectors always fix it with no lingering problems. I would think that if its related to the ECM, bad wiring, or bad Toyota fuel system replacement parts, the issue would persist immediately, even after new injectors. All the other data from the IAT sensor, MAF sensor, TPS sensor, Coolant Temp sensor, and 02 sensors are correct and with in a healthy range.

I would like some thoughts on this. MWP has a Million Mile/Lifetime warranty on their injectors for the 5VZFE, but I'm very tempted to just get a new set of genuine Toyota Denso injectors from Oursiman Toyota at $166/each, and hopefully be done with this. Yota Shop has Aisin injectors that are claimed to be new OEM (I know Aisin makes good stuff) for a much cheaper $89.37/each, but I'm wondering if I need to stop cheaping out on this, bite the bullet, and just go new Toyota injectors. If this happened again after doing so, I would be confident that there is another issue. I just don't know what that might be if a new set of injectors always solves the issue.

For fun and general interest, I've attached a few photos of what the heads look like once the covers removed; I was happy with what I saw. I'm liking Valvoline in our Yotas, and I'm currently running the Restore & Protect.

 

[JavierH19]

And somehow all 8 factory injectors on my two old trucks are still perfect, one with 269k and the other 341k. But those old injectors which i think are delphi or bosch must be better than the new ones. I don't think the new ones would last that long anymore. Quality of everything has gone down for the most part.

It'd have to be bad luck if everything else is measuring ok. I doubt the computer is misreporting numbers.

 

[Goodkat]

And somehow all 8 factory injectors on my two old trucks are still perfect, one with 269k and the other 341k. But those old injectors which i think are delphi or bosch must be better than the new ones. I don't think the new ones would last that long anymore. Quality of everything has gone down for the most part.

It'd have to be bad luck if everything else is measuring ok. I doubt the computer is misreporting numbers.

Maybe the poor quality of gas has something to do with it. I go to the high traffic gas stations, so its not old gas.

I feel like it's just bad luck in my case...

 

[redhat]

Are the plugs on the injectors EV6? This might be a little out of left field, repair wise, but with what I've experienced on GM trucks with injectors (similarly to @JavierH19), they last forever. I have 331k OE injectors that run fine.

If it were mine I'd probably be trying to put an old Delphi/Bosch GM Truck OE injector in by matching the lb/hr, height, oring sides and find spacers if needed. Injectors after all are just pulsing open.

 

[Goodkat]

Are the plugs on the injectors EV6? This might be a little out of left field, repair wise, but with what I've experienced on GM trucks with injectors (similarly to @JavierH19), they last forever. I have 331k OE injectors that run fine.

If it were mine I'd probably be trying to put an old Delphi/Bosch GM Truck OE injector in by matching the lb/hr, height, oring sides and find spacers if needed. Injectors after all are just pulsing open.

I have no idea what the plug type is, I'd have to look into that. Thanks for the reply.

 

[2013ecof150]

166 a piece for OE injectors isn’t bad. Have you ever checked the fuel pressure? Totally guessing here but if the pressure was way high or too low it could possibly damage the injectors?

I would certainly use oem injectors. Is the fuel pressure regulator original?

 

[Donald]

It's a 2000 4Runner. And high mileage. How much do you want to spend? Get injectors from Trav.

Have you checked the frame for rust issues? My brother had to junk his 2004 4Runner as the mechanic would not put it on a lift due to extensive rusting. I think there were class action law suits due to the Dana frame.

 

[Goodkat]

166 a piece for OE injectors isn’t bad. Have you ever checked the fuel pressure? Totally guessing here but if the pressure was way high or too low it could possibly damage the injectors?

I would certainly use oem injectors. Is the fuel pressure regulator original?

Yeah, it's not bad and I've had no issues with this dealer before. I've spent a lot of money there and it's all genuine Toyota parts. They have a strong online presence in Toyota forums, and are trusted.

The fuel pressure regulator is Toyota. The old one wasn't bad, but having the top end apart is the best time, and easiest time to replace. It was the last part of the fuel system that I haven't replaced, so I figured why not.

I'm strongly thinking of going OEM. I'm now living in Virginia and couple hours from them, so I can have them in a day or two even with basic shipping. I can charge them to my PayPal and just pay them off over 6 months.

 

[Goodkat]

It's a 2000 4Runner. And high mileage. How much do you want to spend? Get injectors from Trav.

Have you checked the frame for rust issues? My brother had to junk his 2004 4Runner as the mechanic would not put it on a lift due to extensive rusting. I think there were class action law suits due to the Dana frame.

I have a lot of money into, but i like it, the third Gen 4runner is highly regarded and holds its value value. Mine is clean inside and out, no rot with very little surface rust. I still enjoy driving it, and its paid off. Even if I get new and expensive fuel injectors, it's worth it and cheaper than getting another used vehicle. I went with MWP the first time because it sound like one of the best, and cost effective options. At this point though, I think I need to go new. She's clean and I still get compliments on it.

 

[zeroptzero]

maybe there is a load of sediment in the fuel tank ? who knows how others fueled it. The truck looks real good, nice condition overall body and frame.

 

[02SE]

It's a 2000 4Runner. And high mileage. How much do you want to spend? Get injectors from Trav.

Have you checked the frame for rust issues? My brother had to junk his 2004 4Runner as the mechanic would not put it on a lift due to extensive rusting. I think there were class action law suits due to the Dana frame.

The 4Runner has always been made in Japan. They never used a Dana Corp improperly manufactured frame.

Now anything that is operated and neglected in a highly corrosive environment, will eventually rust or corrode away. Your brother apparently neglected to sufficiently clean his entire vehicle, while operating it in a highly corrosive environment, as every Owners manual I've ever seen instructs owners to do.

Lots of owners of all makes and models do the same, and they end up with a rusted out hulk, which could have been prevented.

 

[Donald]

The 4Runner has always been made in Japan. They never used a Dana Corp improperly manufactured frame.

Now anything that is operated and neglected in a highly corrosive environment, will eventually rust or corrode away. Your brother apparently neglected to sufficiently clean his entire vehicle, while operating it in a highly corrosive environment, as every Owners manual I've ever seen instructs owners to do.

Lots of owners of all makes and models do the same, and they end up with a rusted out hulk, which could have been prevented.

There is a problem with some years of 4Runner and rusting of the frame. There are class action law suits and a company that sells a frame repair kit for a few years of 4Runner.

 

[Goodkat]

I'm just glad mine is in excellent shape. Not perfect, but nice for the age. Others have not been so fortunate. At some point I'll get another daily, but I'll keep this and register it as a classic.

 

[02SE]

There is a problem with some years of 4Runner and rusting of the frame. There are class action law suits and a company that sells a frame repair kit for a few years of 4Runner.

There might be disgruntled owners of neglected 4Runners, and some Ambulance Chasers might have started class action lawsuits.

That doesn't change what I said.

 

[Donald]

There might be disgruntled owners of neglected 4Runners, and some Ambulance Chasers might have started class action lawsuits.

That doesn't change what I said.

Why would a company come up with and sell a frame repair kit designed for several models of the 4Runner if there was not a problem?

Look at autorust.com.

 

[researcher]

I'm just glad mine is in excellent shape. Not perfect, but nice for the age. Others have not been so fortunate. At some point I'll get another daily, but I'll keep this and register it as a classic.

I'll tell you my experience with both re-boxed parts and the remanufactured fuel injectors. First, as you were indicating you cannot service a sealed injector, so remanufactured is a joke of an excuse. The reman injectors I bought were just cleaned up used ones and yes the STFT and LTFT were a mess that happened about 6 months later. I didn't have the money to buy the oem (Honda) so I bought brand new SMP brand (made in south carolina) injectors, never another problem after that!

Now about the so-called "reboxing" if someone says they're denso, most likely they're the rejects that denso did not want in their box. Yup the rejects for performance/quality go somewhere. I've gone down this road and it's expensive, since you're spending 2 or 3 times to replace with a "cheaper" priced part. You end up spending more money in the long run than buying the oem part once!

Not all aftermarket is bad, but the trend lately is a circling the toilet drain race! Have to be very careful what parts you choose.

I agree with you that you don't get to automatically blame any of the Toyota parts you used. It has always been the aftermarket part that has failed and let me down, never the OEM-branded replacement part.

 

[Goodkat]

I'll tell you my experience with both re-boxed parts and the remanufactured fuel injectors. First, as you were indicating you cannot service a sealed injector, so remanufactured is a joke of an excuse. The reman injectors I bought were just cleaned up used ones and yes the STFT and LTFT were a mess that happened about 6 months later. I didn't have the money to buy the oem (Honda) so I bought brand new SMP brand (made in south carolina) injectors, never another problem after that!

Now about the so-called "reboxing" if someone says they're denso, most likely they're the rejects that denso did not want in their box. Yup the rejects for performance/quality go somewhere. I've gone down this road and it's expensive, since you're spending 2 or 3 times to replace with a "cheaper" priced part. You end up spending more money in the long run than buying the oem part once!

Not all aftermarket is bad, but the trend lately is a circling the toilet drain race! Have to be very careful what parts you choose.

I agree with you that you don't get to automatically blame any of the Toyota parts you used. It has always been the aftermarket part that has failed and let me down, never the OEM-branded replacement part.

I have a similar experience with an O'reilly Auto Parts TPS a couple of years ago. Coming off of an off-ramp, the 4Runner absolutely wouldn't not downshift to accelerate and merge into traffic. By then I was already committed to the process, and its a bit unnerving trying to blend onto a highway going 30 mph slower than traffic. I didn't have time to wait for a shipped part. I got a TPS from O;reilly's and it worked for a few months, until I notice my idle RPM was higher than normal and a bit unpredictable. It didn't throw a code, but a genuine Toyota TPS from Ourisman Toyota fixed it, and its been fine since. The genuine part from that Toyota dealer was cheaper than the inferior O'reilly part. I've often found that the box store parts are just as expensive, if not more so, than the prices of a couple good Toyota dealers across the US that have a strong online presence.

I think I've made up my mind, I'm going to bite the bullet and get a new set of genuine injectors. I hate not having faith in my 4Runner and as I said, changing injectors basically every oil change has gotten old. I can ride my motorcycle to work, but I don't like to. The weather isn't too cold, but there are a few more cold mornings coming, and I don't like riding in the dark if I can help it. This a real PITA, and annoying. I hope MWP will warranty another set, or maybe even refund me at least part of my first order last May. If they send me a new set, maybe I can keep them for a while, or sell them for a loss on a forum to recuperate some of my money back.

We got my wife a 2013 Prius that need a water pump, and some other routine maintenance parts, and I did some necessary maintenance that was needed for a 169k miles. I've bought genuine Toyota parts for an 01 Camry we had, and of course the 4Runner. I've never had an issue with genuine Toyota parts.

I agree. Its usually more expensive to buy cheaper parts multiple times verses just buying a good, more expensive part once.

 

[snarl]

https://thenickslawfirm.com/toyota-4runner-rusted-frame/#:~:text=In December 2018, a lawsuit,generation of the company's vehicles.

 

[researcher]

I have a similar experience with an O'reilly Auto Parts TPS a couple of years ago. Coming off of an off-ramp, the 4Runner absolutely wouldn't not downshift to accelerate and merge into traffic. By then I was already committed to the process, and its a bit unnerving trying to blend onto a highway going 30 mph slower than traffic. I didn't have time to wait for a shipped part. I got a TPS from O;reilly's and it worked for a few months, until I notice my idle RPM was higher than normal and a bit unpredictable. It didn't throw a code, but a genuine Toyota TPS from Ourisman Toyota fixed it, and its been fine since. The genuine part from that Toyota dealer was cheaper than the inferior O'reilly part. I've often found that the box store parts are just as expensive, if not more so, than the prices of a couple good Toyota dealers across the US that have a strong online presence.

I think I've made up my mind, I'm going to bite the bullet and get a new set of genuine injectors. I hate not having faith in my 4Runner and as I said, changing injectors basically every oil change has gotten old. I can ride my motorcycle to work, but I don't like to. The weather isn't too cold, but there are a few more cold mornings coming, and I don't like riding in the dark if I can help it. This a real PITA, and annoying. I hope MWP will warranty another set, or maybe even refund me at least part of my first order last May. If they send me a new set, maybe I can keep them for a while, or sell them for a loss on a forum to recuperate some of my money back.

We got my wife a 2013 Prius that need a water pump, and some other routine maintenance parts, and I did some necessary maintenance that was needed for a 169k miles. I've bought genuine Toyota parts for an 01 Camry we had, and of course the 4Runner. I've never had an issue with genuine Toyota parts.

I agree. Its usually more expensive to buy cheaper parts multiple times verses just buying a good, more expensive part once.

Thanks for your story on what happened with you. It got me thinking that it's kind of ironic that the genuine Toyota part can sometimes be cheaper than the aftermarket! Other times they genuine part is only $20-40 more! I found that with my Scion. Yup Ourisman is still a good dealer, used to be McGeorge, been happy to find out they're still giving good prices and service!

yep that's getting ridiculous having to mess with the injectors every oil change! I don't think I've ever had any issues with Toyota parts (online dealer or in person purchased), yup your experience has been mine too. well at least now you'll get the genuine parts and hopefully be done with this parts merry-go-round.

 

[RedSpider]

Those brown injectors are known problem-children. A good rust free 4Runner of this era is bringing a kings ransom, at least they are where I live. Easy for me to say but I'd bite the pillow and buy new Toyota injectors and be done with it, this particular vehicle is worth it.