OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
What viscosity does Audi recommend for track use in this car?
My experiences with thin oil
- Thread starter HTSS_TR
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
What viscosity does Audi recommend for track use in this car?
There is no oil recommendation for track use in the car manual. Car came with 0W-30 as a factory fill and requires A3 VW 502 approved oil.
What viscosity does Audi recommend for track use in this car?
There is no oil recommendation for track use in the car manual. Car came with 0W-30 as a factory fill and requires A3 VW 502 approved oil.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Perhaps ask Audi?
You are stressing the oil by tracking the car and the oil you use should reflect that use.
I'm sure in daily driver use, a lighter weight is more than adequate, but this may not be the case for the extreme conditions generated by track use.
You are stressing the oil by tracking the car and the oil you use should reflect that use.
I'm sure in daily driver use, a lighter weight is more than adequate, but this may not be the case for the extreme conditions generated by track use.
I would like to clarify some points that I missed:
The coolant temperature was almost 100C while I was stuck uphill at Death Valley for 3 hours to go less than 5 miles with air conditioning at full blast, but as soon as I passed that construction area and resumed normal speed of 85+ mph, the coolant temperature dropped back to below 85C which was normal temperature with M1 0W40.
I mentioned that PP 5W20 got darker much sooner than M1 0W40, I think it may be cleaning the deposits of using M1 0W40 for up to 13.5k miles between oil changes. The car has oil life monitor which MB calls FSS, that tells us to change oil from as little as 10k and as much as 15k. Saw that PP got darker sooner actually made me feel good that it did the cleaning job that I did not expect it to do.
The car did not consume any measurable oil with either M1 0W40, PP5W20, Delo 15W40 or M1 0W20+10W30 mixed. One of the reasons that I tried thinner oil with this car was it did not consume oil with M1 0W40 until 90k miles, I expected that with 2 grades thinner it may consume some oil but none what so ever and it was a real surprise to me.
As someone said, thicker oil may quiet down engine noise and thinner should make engine noise louder. But I observed opposite direction: loud with M1 0W40, quiet with PP 5W20, loud with Delo 15W40 then quiet again with M1 0W20+10W30 mixed, specially at idle the car is so quiet I could not hear any engine noise at all with PP 5W20, my observation about quietness with thinner oil(s) was confirmed by wifey. If I can find PP 0W20 at local store(s) I will try it in this car.
This car is mostly driven in city streets, 90-95% of the trips are less than 7 miles, 3-4% are more than 10 miles but less than 15 miles, less than 2% are more than 15 miles. Because of short trips, I think thinner oil would help engine get to operating temperature faster.
These observations may contradict normal thinking, if any point I posted that you guys think is not valid or had been proven wrong in the past, please post then we can discuss. One thing I would like to say is, don't flame me for using thinner oil than manufacture recommendation, it is my car and if anything went wrong with using thinner oil I would be the guy who pays for the experience. I wanted to verify what Dr AEHass put on his white paper, and so far he is correct.
The coolant temperature was almost 100C while I was stuck uphill at Death Valley for 3 hours to go less than 5 miles with air conditioning at full blast, but as soon as I passed that construction area and resumed normal speed of 85+ mph, the coolant temperature dropped back to below 85C which was normal temperature with M1 0W40.
I mentioned that PP 5W20 got darker much sooner than M1 0W40, I think it may be cleaning the deposits of using M1 0W40 for up to 13.5k miles between oil changes. The car has oil life monitor which MB calls FSS, that tells us to change oil from as little as 10k and as much as 15k. Saw that PP got darker sooner actually made me feel good that it did the cleaning job that I did not expect it to do.
The car did not consume any measurable oil with either M1 0W40, PP5W20, Delo 15W40 or M1 0W20+10W30 mixed. One of the reasons that I tried thinner oil with this car was it did not consume oil with M1 0W40 until 90k miles, I expected that with 2 grades thinner it may consume some oil but none what so ever and it was a real surprise to me.
As someone said, thicker oil may quiet down engine noise and thinner should make engine noise louder. But I observed opposite direction: loud with M1 0W40, quiet with PP 5W20, loud with Delo 15W40 then quiet again with M1 0W20+10W30 mixed, specially at idle the car is so quiet I could not hear any engine noise at all with PP 5W20, my observation about quietness with thinner oil(s) was confirmed by wifey. If I can find PP 0W20 at local store(s) I will try it in this car.
This car is mostly driven in city streets, 90-95% of the trips are less than 7 miles, 3-4% are more than 10 miles but less than 15 miles, less than 2% are more than 15 miles. Because of short trips, I think thinner oil would help engine get to operating temperature faster.
These observations may contradict normal thinking, if any point I posted that you guys think is not valid or had been proven wrong in the past, please post then we can discuss. One thing I would like to say is, don't flame me for using thinner oil than manufacture recommendation, it is my car and if anything went wrong with using thinner oil I would be the guy who pays for the experience. I wanted to verify what Dr AEHass put on his white paper, and so far he is correct.
There are generalizations, then there is what actually happens. Why do 2 oils with the exact same specs sound and work different in a given engine? It seems that each engine and each driver can be mated to a specific oil for their use, not sure why. You have to experiment.
aehaas
aehaas
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
My 2007 Ford F-150 5.4 3v uses 5w-20 as the factory fill, I have been using Mobil-1 5w-20 since 1st oil change with remarkable results as far as engine quiet at startup,running,& MPG's.....I will run this oil as long as the engine lasts! I change @ 4K mile intervals.
It is amazing how German vehicles always call for very thick oil under the premise their engine is highly tuned, high performance, and high end. I can't seem to agree that a MB sedan's engine will be put under the same stress as a F150, regardless of driving condition. Personally, I think German car performance is hogwash as their cars aren't that reliable in the first place.
My 2007 Ford F-150 5.4 3v uses 5w-20 as the factory fill, I have been using Mobil-1 5w-20 since 1st oil change with remarkable results as far as engine quiet at startup,running,& MPG's.....I will run this oil as long as the engine lasts! I change @ 4K mile intervals.
It is amazing how German vehicles always call for very thick oil under the premise their engine is highly tuned, high performance, and high end. I can't seem to agree that a MB sedan's engine will be put under the same stress as a F150, regardless of driving condition. Personally, I think German car performance is hogwash as their cars aren't that reliable in the first place.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Another choice is Red LIne 5W-30, I might start here and follow pressure with the temperatures you are seeing. In general a 20 grade may work but you would want to try it gradually then work your way up in engine stress. Follow up with UOA. Only programmed testing will get you the right oil.
aehaas
hm redline 5W-30 has higher HTHS then GC I am currently using...
How is HTHS rating of oil related to oil temperature?
Logic would say higher HTHS = higher pumping resistance = higher oil temperature?
Pumping resistance in relation to viscosity is such a small percent of heat generated in the oil, it doesn't even matter. The heat is coming from the heads, piston crowns, and turbos.
Logic would say to use a higher viscosity as temps and loads go up.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Another choice is Red LIne 5W-30, I might start here and follow pressure with the temperatures you are seeing. In general a 20 grade may work but you would want to try it gradually then work your way up in engine stress. Follow up with UOA. Only programmed testing will get you the right oil.
aehaas
hm redline 5W-30 has higher HTHS then GC I am currently using...
How is HTHS rating of oil related to oil temperature?
Logic would say higher HTHS = higher pumping resistance = higher oil temperature?
Pumping resistance in relation to viscosity is such a small percent of heat generated in the oil, it doesn't even matter. The heat is coming from the heads, piston crowns, and turbos.
Logic would say to use a higher viscosity as temps and loads go up.
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
It is amazing how German vehicles always call for very thick oil under the premise their engine is highly tuned, high performance, and high end. I can't seem to agree that a MB sedan's engine will be put under the same stress as a F150, regardless of driving condition. Personally, I think German car performance is hogwash as their cars aren't that reliable in the first place.
The same E430 can cruise at 150+ mph all day long on Autobahn without a hitch. I drove my car at over 130 mph for a short distance, less than 5 miles, on I-15 to Vegas few years ago and the car was as stable as it was at 80 mph. My '94 Lexus LS400 wasn't as stable at that speed. I didn't try my '04 S2000 at more than 110 mph yet with either top up or top down.
I'm lucky that I got a good copy of E430, I had no mechanical break down of any kind for that last 4.5 years after warranty expired. Other than gas, the two items that costs me the most are: tires(235/45-17 W/Y speed rate) that lasted less than 16-20k miles and front brake pads at less than 14-16k miles.
It is amazing how German vehicles always call for very thick oil under the premise their engine is highly tuned, high performance, and high end. I can't seem to agree that a MB sedan's engine will be put under the same stress as a F150, regardless of driving condition. Personally, I think German car performance is hogwash as their cars aren't that reliable in the first place.
The same E430 can cruise at 150+ mph all day long on Autobahn without a hitch. I drove my car at over 130 mph for a short distance, less than 5 miles, on I-15 to Vegas few years ago and the car was as stable as it was at 80 mph. My '94 Lexus LS400 wasn't as stable at that speed. I didn't try my '04 S2000 at more than 110 mph yet with either top up or top down.
I'm lucky that I got a good copy of E430, I had no mechanical break down of any kind for that last 4.5 years after warranty expired. Other than gas, the two items that costs me the most are: tires(235/45-17 W/Y speed rate) that lasted less than 16-20k miles and front brake pads at less than 14-16k miles.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
C'mon,man! Ain't you got no learnin'? Thicker=more friction than thinner.
Yes, but it's such a small amount, it really doesn't matter, especially from a heat generating source point of view.
Besides I would rather have more "oil friction" than metal to metal friction.
C'mon,man! Ain't you got no learnin'? Thicker=more friction than thinner.
Yes, but it's such a small amount, it really doesn't matter, especially from a heat generating source point of view.
Besides I would rather have more "oil friction" than metal to metal friction.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Wouldn`t a thicker oil film mean less friction since there`s more protection between the moving metal parts?
A boat has the same drag if it is in 60 feet or 600 feet of water(at the same speed). Make the water thicker somehow and then it takes more energy to move the boat at the same speed.
Hi,
aquariuscsm - Yes at the extremes - there is a point of diminishing returns. Hence the need of a robust HTHS viscosity in some applications
aquariuscsm - Yes at the extremes - there is a point of diminishing returns. Hence the need of a robust HTHS viscosity in some applications
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: FZ1
2 or 3 degrees is 2 or 3 degrees,ain't it? Metal to metal friction? I ain't heard no scrapes yet.
That's a convincing argument.
2 or 3 degrees at what expense?
At nearly 280 degrees, how thin do you think his oil already is? And you want to go thinner to lower temps a questionable 2-3 degrees?
You're ignoring the fact that over 95% of the heat comes from combustion, not friction.
2 or 3 degrees is 2 or 3 degrees,ain't it? Metal to metal friction? I ain't heard no scrapes yet.
That's a convincing argument.
2 or 3 degrees at what expense?
At nearly 280 degrees, how thin do you think his oil already is? And you want to go thinner to lower temps a questionable 2-3 degrees?
You're ignoring the fact that over 95% of the heat comes from combustion, not friction.
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
A boat has the same drag if it is in 60 feet or 600 feet of water(at the same speed). Make the water thicker somehow and then it takes more energy to move the boat at the same speed.
more energy and therefore more heat with thicker oil
A boat has the same drag if it is in 60 feet or 600 feet of water(at the same speed). Make the water thicker somehow and then it takes more energy to move the boat at the same speed.
more energy and therefore more heat with thicker oil
Its great to hear success for BITOG members switching to the thinner grades in their particular application.
Any new from Mercedes, BMW or Porche and other Euro manufacturers looking at thinner oil grades for their vehicles ?
GF-5 not far away.
Any new from Mercedes, BMW or Porche and other Euro manufacturers looking at thinner oil grades for their vehicles ?
GF-5 not far away.
OP should happy there is no oil pressure guage in the car--IMO it would have been reading about 1 lb more than it takes to trip the oil press light-? 8psi?
And.... they are still during construction in NV I-15 BTW
Steve
And.... they are still during construction in NV I-15 BTW
Steve
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: FZ1
2 or 3 degrees is 2 or 3 degrees,ain't it? Metal to metal friction? I ain't heard no scrapes yet.
That's a convincing argument.
2 or 3 degrees at what expense?
At nearly 280 degrees, how thin do you think his oil already is? And you want to go thinner to lower temps a questionable 2-3 degrees?
You're ignoring the fact that over 95% of the heat comes from combustion, not friction.
you have some good points there..let's see 280F is almost 140C..and during my track event my engine spent most of the time in 3500 to 7000rpm zone
GC has HTHS of 3.6 @ 150C
redline 5W-20 has HTHS of 3.3 @ 150C - so -10%
redline 5W-40 has HTHS of 4.6 @ 150C - so +30%
From what I red on this forum so far friction modifiers also can play a role on oil temperature, meaning different brands will run at different operating temperatures in same conditions.
so if you get lower viscosity and more "slippery" oil that could/would result in lower operating oil temperature and it would protect as well as thicker oil since you are on the higher spot in its viscosity curve.
Does this make sense?
Originally Posted By: FZ1
2 or 3 degrees is 2 or 3 degrees,ain't it? Metal to metal friction? I ain't heard no scrapes yet.
That's a convincing argument.
2 or 3 degrees at what expense?
At nearly 280 degrees, how thin do you think his oil already is? And you want to go thinner to lower temps a questionable 2-3 degrees?
You're ignoring the fact that over 95% of the heat comes from combustion, not friction.
you have some good points there..let's see 280F is almost 140C..and during my track event my engine spent most of the time in 3500 to 7000rpm zone
GC has HTHS of 3.6 @ 150C
redline 5W-20 has HTHS of 3.3 @ 150C - so -10%
redline 5W-40 has HTHS of 4.6 @ 150C - so +30%
From what I red on this forum so far friction modifiers also can play a role on oil temperature, meaning different brands will run at different operating temperatures in same conditions.
so if you get lower viscosity and more "slippery" oil that could/would result in lower operating oil temperature and it would protect as well as thicker oil since you are on the higher spot in its viscosity curve.
Does this make sense?
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
