Would an oil such as Esso's Essolube 2243 work in a motorcycle engine transmission combo?
Motorcycle oil
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The ONLY time I have ever experienced an (almost) immediate performance difference by changing an oil was when I went from Castrol ACT>EVO 10W-40 to the Amsoil AMO 10W-40.
That was me shifting so much smoooother
Seriously, for the dough I don't see a better choice than this product OR their 20W-50 if you happen to live in a much warmer climate or have a V-Twin. All the other 100% synthetics are more expensive.
To go back to the original posting I find it very interesting that these new Valvoline MC specific products are, in fact, JASO MA "rated"... At least it is shown on the label as meeting that standard. I think it was Too Slick who mentioned that this is the one to look for when wet clutch compatibility is a concern.
I should also remark that the ACT>EVO also shows this on their label. It was a fine product for me, I just wanted to go with a better oil and a little longer change interval.
Cheers, guys!
That was me shifting so much smoooother
Seriously, for the dough I don't see a better choice than this product OR their 20W-50 if you happen to live in a much warmer climate or have a V-Twin. All the other 100% synthetics are more expensive.
To go back to the original posting I find it very interesting that these new Valvoline MC specific products are, in fact, JASO MA "rated"... At least it is shown on the label as meeting that standard. I think it was Too Slick who mentioned that this is the one to look for when wet clutch compatibility is a concern.
I should also remark that the ACT>EVO also shows this on their label. It was a fine product for me, I just wanted to go with a better oil and a little longer change interval.
Cheers, guys!
I've been riding street bikes for over 15 years and have to jump in on this one. I have no religious feelings about what kind of oil to use, but some experience.
I ran a '78 Honda CB-550-K, an air cooled inline 4, no oil cooler, with wet clutch & shared tranny/engine housing, for 100k miles using regular old car oil. Changed every 2000 miles as recommended by the manual. I rebuilt the engine at 73000 miles because it leaked so bad, but inside it looked beautiful. The machinist said it looked like a new engine. Cylinder bore taper was well below specification.
I've had several other bikes over the years including a '92 GSXR-750 which is an air cooled / oil cooled engine that put down 100 RWHP out of a 46 ci engine. My current bike is a '99 Magna which is a 750cc water cooled V-4 with 4 overhead cams. Also has wet clutch and shared housing for tranny & engine. Honda recommends anything from 10w30 to 20w50 depending on temperature. They recommend changing oil once per year or 8,000 miles whichever comes first. They specifically dis-recommend any "energy conserving" oil. But that's all they say. They do not require or recommend MC specific oil. I've been running Mobil 1 15w50 "red cap" because it is not an energy conserving oil.
Based on my experience over the years, owning several different bikes and never using special oils in any of them, just running the factory recommend weight and API spec, I'd say the car oils work just fine. Even my hot running air cooled high RPM bikes didn't have any problems with these oils short term or long term. Based on this experience I'm come to believe that the MC-specific oils are mostly a marketing ploy. I'm sure there are some measureable chemical differences in these oils but it doesn't seem they make any difference in the real world.
I'm willing to change my ways if the evidence exists that there are real benefits to MC specific oils but so far I've yet to find any.
I ran a '78 Honda CB-550-K, an air cooled inline 4, no oil cooler, with wet clutch & shared tranny/engine housing, for 100k miles using regular old car oil. Changed every 2000 miles as recommended by the manual. I rebuilt the engine at 73000 miles because it leaked so bad, but inside it looked beautiful. The machinist said it looked like a new engine. Cylinder bore taper was well below specification.
I've had several other bikes over the years including a '92 GSXR-750 which is an air cooled / oil cooled engine that put down 100 RWHP out of a 46 ci engine. My current bike is a '99 Magna which is a 750cc water cooled V-4 with 4 overhead cams. Also has wet clutch and shared housing for tranny & engine. Honda recommends anything from 10w30 to 20w50 depending on temperature. They recommend changing oil once per year or 8,000 miles whichever comes first. They specifically dis-recommend any "energy conserving" oil. But that's all they say. They do not require or recommend MC specific oil. I've been running Mobil 1 15w50 "red cap" because it is not an energy conserving oil.
Based on my experience over the years, owning several different bikes and never using special oils in any of them, just running the factory recommend weight and API spec, I'd say the car oils work just fine. Even my hot running air cooled high RPM bikes didn't have any problems with these oils short term or long term. Based on this experience I'm come to believe that the MC-specific oils are mostly a marketing ploy. I'm sure there are some measureable chemical differences in these oils but it doesn't seem they make any difference in the real world.
I'm willing to change my ways if the evidence exists that there are real benefits to MC specific oils but so far I've yet to find any.
Sometimes I'd really like to get you folks permission to reprint some of what's here in some of those motorcycle forums mentioned earlier - but, I just give em a link here, and tell em they can read all about it - probably most of them just want to talk about it over there, and do not follow up on the link.
Like the words an old co-worker used to tell me when I made a mistake "I buy you books, but all you do is look at the pictures. . ."
Thanks for a wealth of information, folks.
RR
Like the words an old co-worker used to tell me when I made a mistake "I buy you books, but all you do is look at the pictures. . ."
Thanks for a wealth of information, folks.
RR
it doesnt matter what oil you use.
me dads got 36K miles on his r1100r using GENERIC no name oil.
think about it.
me dads got 36K miles on his r1100r using GENERIC no name oil.
think about it.
Hey everybody! Been lurking here for a long time and have been following this thread. I use Mobil MC oil in my ZX9R but would love to use the 15/50 Red top for half the price. I found a test that compares additive levels of MC vs car oils. Here is a link. Love to here what everone thinks.
web page
web page
I used to use MC oils in the bike and that was one of the sites that really got me thinking twice about it. I mean, look at graph "G" -- there is no significant difference between "red cap" and the MX4T. Furthermore, even if there were any difference, would it matter?
I can see why adding ZDDP to dino juice makes sense because it's going to shear down pretty quickly so it's needed. But does having more ZDDP do anything if the oil doesn't shear down in the first place? And everthing I've read shows that any group IV is going to retain viscosity better than a group II.
The only benefit I can see with MX4T is that it's 10w40 rather than 15w50. And I'd rather use a 10w40 oil -- but not at twice the price, especially when 15w50 is well within Honda's recommended range of oil viscosity.
I've switched to using "red cap" and when I drain this oil I'm going to do a UOA on it.
three words: golden spectro syntheticquote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
You bike guys want to continue to use an SJ or SL automotive oil for your rides? Well, OK.
We know that gearboxes and the shear stress they produce require a stout barrier anti-wear additive package, the kind of additive package which has been steeply curtailed with the SJ and SL motor oils.
Now, some of you are saying that everything looks fine so far and that may appear to be the case but I can't help but believe that your gearbox (if not the engines with gear-driven cams) will experience greater wear as your miles pile up. If it were me, I wouldn't think of using an automotive oil for anything other than a quick system flush. I also won't use a motor oil in my car's manual transmission despite the fact that it calls for it (SH motor oil, specifically).
That sort of practice might be fine for the 'average' guy ... but not for me.
its mixed in brookfield ct. using someone elses stuff.
however, its additive package is perhaps the best....ask the magna guys.
why?
the big magnas of the early 80s had rather soft camshafts. they also use low pressure, high flow oiling. the oil to the heads is also post crankshaft and unfiltered. If you dont use the Robyn Landers oil fix, you need to run proper oil And this cam wear is not over 20-30K miles, it occurs QUICKLY and a set of 4 cams runs about $600 plus labor - which is an intensive process requiring tools we dont have.
After service level SG, the EP levels in 'car oil' was decreased to save the O2 sensors and 3 way catalyst and its replacement was not as effective for gearboxes. Motorcycle oils should stop at SG levels additive package wise.
as for hondas clutches, they are now, and always have been - junk, and to add insult to injury, strong -ester oils tend to disolve the glue in the fiber plates. fortunately, honda clutches can be changed with an 8mm and 17mm sockets and a penny - use bonded kevlar plates instead.
I know a lot of guys used to run the old 'GN4' oil from honda- dont know if that is out there still.
Its mostly noticable on the bigger bikes (without pulling the basket out) but you can 'pull thru' the clutch in like 3rd gear at WOT over 5000 rpm. or in other words, between 50 and 100 in my bike.
On my 300ex atv I notice it a little bit when she hooks up on good solid surface after a gravel spin
The fix of course besides kevlar plates (about $150 from DRP) is stronger springs also.
FWIW, I went from dino auto oil to Amsoil motorcycle synthetic and the improvement was rather surprising. (And this is fresh oil vs. fresh oil, not used vs. new.)
Unfortunately I changed too many variables, so I dunno whether the improvement was from synthetic oil or from the m/c formulation.
Cheers, 3MP
Unfortunately I changed too many variables, so I dunno whether the improvement was from synthetic oil or from the m/c formulation.
Cheers, 3MP
QuadDriver:
I don't get it. I guess I'm ignorant. What do mean by "pull thru the clutch"?
My bike is a VTR1000. It's got 68 ft-lbs at 6250 and 105 Hp at 8600 rpm so it's not exactly small or wimpy.
The clutch locks up fine without any grabbyness. 2nd gear power wheelies aren't a problem unless you don't like a weather forecast when riding 70 mph.
I'm most interested in your comments about high ester content oils, "disolve the glue in the fiber plates"
You've obviously seen this or you would not have said it. Which oils were being used? Redline? Motul? Were they di-esters or polyol esters?
What are the facts?
I don't get it. I guess I'm ignorant. What do mean by "pull thru the clutch"?
My bike is a VTR1000. It's got 68 ft-lbs at 6250 and 105 Hp at 8600 rpm so it's not exactly small or wimpy.
The clutch locks up fine without any grabbyness. 2nd gear power wheelies aren't a problem unless you don't like a weather forecast when riding 70 mph.
I'm most interested in your comments about high ester content oils, "disolve the glue in the fiber plates"
You've obviously seen this or you would not have said it. Which oils were being used? Redline? Motul? Were they di-esters or polyol esters?
What are the facts?
I think he was referring to the inline 4 Hondas from the 1970s. They had weak clutch springs and the clutch would start slipping even though the plates were fine. The fix was to put a shim under each spring.quote:
Originally posted by satterfi:
QuadDriver:
I don't get it. I guess I'm ignorant. What do mean by "pull thru the clutch"?
My bike is a VTR1000. It's got 68 ft-lbs at 6250 and 105 Hp at 8600 rpm so it's not exactly small or wimpy.
The clutch locks up fine without any grabbyness. 2nd gear power wheelies aren't a problem unless you don't like a weather forecast when riding 70 mph.
However, to my best of my knowledge Honda's street bikes no longer have this problem. My slightly modified '99 Magna 750 puts down about 90 HP at the rear wheel on the dyno and the clutch is holding up just fine.
BTW are you sure about those #s? Because 105 HP @ 8600 RPM is 64 ft. lbs. of torque. So what you're saying is the torque peaks at 68 @ 6250 and is only down 4 ft. lbs. at 8600 RPM. If true that's one he!! of a flat torque curve
no Im referring to pretty much every honda made. Like I said the prblem with organic material clutch plates exists across the board when using '-ester' (meaning di or polyol), the real hipo hondas, starting with the 900rr from 10? years ago had better plates installed from the factory.quote:
Originally posted by MRC01:
I think he was referring to the inline 4 Hondas from the 1970s. They had weak clutch springs and the clutch would start slipping even though the plates were fine. The fix was to put a shim under each spring.
However, to my best of my knowledge Honda's street bikes no longer have this problem. My slightly modified '99 Magna 750 puts down about 90 HP at the rear wheel on the dyno and the clutch is holding up just fine.
BTW are you sure about those #s? Because 105 HP @ 8600 RPM is 64 ft. lbs. of torque. So what you're saying is the torque peaks at 68 @ 6250 and is only down 4 ft. lbs. at 8600 RPM. If true that's one he!! of a flat torque curve
DRP does in fact make the plates for your newer magna. Generally honda users describe the problem as coming in around 8-9K miles on a clutch, but 1L+ bike owners have reported it at much much lower mileages. The springs of which I speak are avail from DRP also or vesrah.
For whomever asked: 'pulling thru' means that under hard acceleration the drive plates and the driven plates would lose their relative grip and engine rpms would climb noticably while MPH did not, sorta like just sticking your foot on a clutch pedal a weee bit.
Im not saying that -ester oil causes this (the pull thru), it happens on dino or PAO also, but accelerated friction material loss is greater.
I've found this thread to be very interesting. I owned an '83 Honda 750 Sabre V4 and put 63,000 miles on it in 4 years. Had all four cams replaced as the lobes were badly pitted and it was making some noise. Independent shop replaced the first two and Honda actually replaced the other two later at no cost. At that time I used regular Havoline car oil.
After trading for an '87 Gold Wing I started using Golden Spectro synthetic and still use it today in that '87 with 47,000 miles changing it every 5000. I don't see much mention of Golden Spectro at this site. Just wondering how many use it or know much about this oil?
After trading for an '87 Gold Wing I started using Golden Spectro synthetic and still use it today in that '87 with 47,000 miles changing it every 5000. I don't see much mention of Golden Spectro at this site. Just wondering how many use it or know much about this oil?
I wonder how I avoided experiencing this problem. I put 100,000 miles on a '78 CB-550-K and never had this problem. I've got over 16k on my '99 Magna and no problems. The guys I know running the late model Magnas haven't had clutch problems either.
I was aware that Dave Dodge had the kevlar plates available but nobody I know of has actually needed them. I suppose when the clutch finally does die I might use them as replacement but so far the stock clutch is just fine.
If I understand ur post...u still have a VF750C running on GS syn.....you then stumbled onto the PERFECT oil for that bike and you can tell us all first hand what those cams are like! I have owned many VF700Cs and my current VF1100C, and swear by the oil. my 1100 has about 28K on it now (original) and the cams as of last valve setting were still pretty and I dont have the landers oil fix installed. I run GS syn and honda oil filters only.
I dont think its allowed to post other site links here, but google up a search on 'sab-mag org' and Robyn Landers and you should get to the proper pages - you want the V65 Magna and SABRE BBS (dont worry, it covers all displacements all years)
Quad, I traded the VF750 for the GoldWing in '87. Still have the Gold Wing but don't ride it much anymore. In the 80's I rode the bike to work everyday that it wasn't raining when I got ready to leave home. Rode no matter how cold, just wouldn't ride 30 miles to work in the rain. No telling how many days it rained on the way home.
So I take it that you really like the Golden Spectro. I only used it in the Wing and not the V4. The VF750 still ran good when I traded it. Just wanted to get more comfortable.
So I take it that you really like the Golden Spectro. I only used it in the Wing and not the V4. The VF750 still ran good when I traded it. Just wanted to get more comfortable.
we just call it 'pull thru' cause its not apparent at release (it takes some hp to find), like a high speed dump...but yes its a slipquote:
Originally posted by Hirev:
Quaddriver, FWIW Clutch slipping is what you are describing. "Pull thru" does not mean anything.
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