"Most wear occurs at start-up"

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Engine block heaters warm the oil so that it flows more quickly on start up and "gets a jump" on warm up temps.
Not really, since most of the oil is in the pan. You need both a pan heater and a block heater. With my "invention" I am hoping the hot exhaust gasses from the propane burner rising up through the engine bay will keep it warm. I'm not looking to maintain operating temperature, just avoid extreme cold temperature.

 

[TallPaul]

Could it be that cold start wear is more due to the contracted state of the metal components in a cold engine, vs the expanded state in the hot engine?

The cylinders could be slightly out of round, also bearings in cold, especially extreme cold.

Maybe, just maybe, oil flow is not a significant component, since there is a sacrifical coating of the antiwear additives built up in the engine on the bearing surfaces etc., which can be worn down partly and built back up during the operating temperature phase. This suggests that the worst thing is to start and cold engine then not run it to operating temperature as you will repeatedly shave off some of that sacrifical layer. Not to mention the pumping of acids and such into the oil that won't "burn off."

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.


oilgal, they only charge the galleries, lube the mains and cam bearings, and depending on design, some or all of the rod bearings. Some cams have oil drillings through them also.

They don't put oil to the rings, but may lube part of the bore if the engine has squirters there.

I've never pulled a part a "dry" engine, regardless of how long it's been standing.

 

[Oilgal]

Thanks Shannow.

I wasn't planning on getting one either.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.
Cold start is just what it means a cold start. Should be starting and warm up cycle wear.

 

[Lazy JW]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
.... it can hit lower than -30C in the dead of winter here. If I was up in Ft. McMurray, where they see -40C in the winter, I would use a 0W because I would need it. ....


I would want 0W at -30ºC

My neighbor burned out the starter on his diesel van at -20º F because he is a mechanical doofus and doesn't bother changing his oil. Dunno exactly what he had in there but it looked like tar; we had to put it in a heated shop for two days to get it to drain.

Another neighbor told about his Dad who was a dairy farmer. About 1950 he purchased a brand new Chebbie pickup which he used to haul milk cans to the train depot every morning. Start it up, drive 1/4 mile to the depot, shut it off and wait for the train. Train arrived, put milk cans on train, take empty cans off train, start it up and drive back to the barn. Maybe an occasional trip around the farm or to town. Ten years later the pickup still looked new but had about 10k miles on it and was TOTALLY worn out, barely even ran enough to get it to town as a trade-in.
Joe

 

[slalom44]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.
I have a prelube pump and a bypass filter installed in my car, and I have very low wear metals. I use Amsoil 0W-30 oil. I'm convinced that the prelube pump gives you Hydrodynamic Lubrication from the very first rotation of the engine. The preluber doesn't just lube all of the surfaces, it also pre-pressurizes the entire system so that your oil light is off before you crank the engine.

When people say that have immediate or instant oil pressure without prelube, they're guesstimating. Your oil light stays on for varying amounts of time, and just because you can see the oil start squirting right away, doesn't mean that you have hydrodynamic lubrication with the first rotation of the engine.

Here is my UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1064707&fpart=1

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.
Cold start is just what it means a cold start. Should be starting and warm up cycle wear.


True, that really is a bit of a misnomer.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: slalom44
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.
I have a prelube pump and a bypass filter installed in my car, and I have very low wear metals. I use Amsoil 0W-30 oil. I'm convinced that the prelube pump gives you Hydrodynamic Lubrication from the very first rotation of the engine. The preluber doesn't just lube all of the surfaces, it also pre-pressurizes the entire system so that your oil light is off before you crank the engine.

When people say that have immediate or instant oil pressure without prelube, they're guesstimating. Your oil light stays on for varying amounts of time, and just because you can see the oil start squirting right away, doesn't mean that you have hydrodynamic lubrication with the first rotation of the engine.

Here is my UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1064707&fpart=1


Well now that changes things!

I had assumed, with emphasis on the first three letters, while pre-chargers are a good idea for commercial tucks and aircraft, that I wouldn't see enough practical benefit in my engine to justify their cost. Which now in hindsight doesn't make much sense at all. I am going to look into getting one now. I like the design of the Amsoil AMK01. They are out of my price range for now though.

Thanks for sharing that info slalom44!

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.


oilgal, they only charge the galleries, lube the mains and cam bearings, and depending on design, some or all of the rod bearings. Some cams have oil drillings through them also.

They don't put oil to the rings, but may lube part of the bore if the engine has squirters there.

I've never pulled a part a "dry" engine, regardless of how long it's been standing.


Now I am rethinking this Shannow. Having, all of that pre-lubed, simply has to go a long way to reducing wear. Though oil remains everywhere, for quite some time, surely there is far less than is required for good hydrodynamic lubrication. I mean just look at slalom44's UOAs. I sure I wish I could afford one of those babies.

 

[Shannow]

OilGal, I was certainly not discounting them. I read an SAE paper years ago that indicated that diesel engines could easily double their life with a pre-oiler. (Diesels have horrific pressure on the rod bearings, particularly their first few firing strokes.

An accusump would be a good simple system IMO

 

[Oilgal]

Sounds like maybe you were thinking along the same lines I was. Great idea, but perhaps, more than we need? I think I need one now though.

I will look into that unit you mentioned. Thanks Shannow.

 

[virginoil]

Just to keep this in context.

If you are using a quality group 3 SM oil with the appropriate viscosity grade by the OEM and stick to severe service recommendations when extending OCI's (ie if your severe OCI is 3 months, and you double the interval to 6 months)it has been stated in other threads, that the engine will often out live the car.

 

[Oilgal]

I hereby change my position on pre-lubers. I have been obsessively looking into this, (WTH IS WRONG WITH ME?!) and I no longer want one, at this time.

Here is why.

old BITOG thread - greatest contribution to wear reduction

The conclusions I have drawn, gathered from the above linked to thread and a couple of others, are not based upon anything like a consensual viewpoint expressed within said thread. No, far from it, since it is mainly an argument. It's a really instructive one though, and so thanks you guys.

My aforementioned conclusions:

1. It appears, that UOAs more often show wear metals present, which indicate cylinder and ring wear, and a pre-luber wont help that much if at all.

2. I will spend the money, I was going to spend on a pre-luber, on improving my engine's oil filtration instead.

Note - I will though continue to crank my engine with the coil disconnected, until it gets oil pressure, after every oil change before actually firing it up. I claim that one under provision of, Article 4 of THE LAW OF BITOG, {Gary Allen} subsection (a) "Every member is allowed to have one silver bullet ..one holy grail that assures them that their engine will live forever."

Sorry for thinking out loud again. I will leave you men to your discussion. I will just read now.

Thanks again.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: slalom44
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
Pre oilers, aka oil pre chargers, eliminate cold starts. They inject oil directly into wear surfaces, bearings rings etc, before the engine starts, when you turn the key.
I have a prelube pump and a bypass filter installed in my car, and I have very low wear metals. I use Amsoil 0W-30 oil. I'm convinced that the prelube pump gives you Hydrodynamic Lubrication from the very first rotation of the engine. The preluber doesn't just lube all of the surfaces, it also pre-pressurizes the entire system so that your oil light is off before you crank the engine.

When people say that have immediate or instant oil pressure without prelube, they're guesstimating. Your oil light stays on for varying amounts of time, and just because you can see the oil start squirting right away, doesn't mean that you have hydrodynamic lubrication with the first rotation of the engine.

Here is my UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1064707&fpart=1


I have been using a pre-luber for an 88 E-150 for about 20 years. Its a pump I mounted under the hood, with a dash mounted toggle switch which I turn on every time I start the van. As it pumps I watch the oil gauge build pressure. When I have pressure I start the engine.

Prior to using Synthetic oil I observed how long it took to build pressure Dino oil takes more than twice the time to build pressure than the synthetic oil (cold morning 20*, if colder it takes even longer). That pretty much sold me on the synthetic oil.

Nice feature of the pre-luber is after a long run in hot weather I can turn it on after I shut the engine off and use oil to help cool the engine. If I store the van for long periods of time during the winter months I can go into the garage turn the pump on and let it run for a minute or so and circulate oil w/o starting the engine. Nothing is going to totally eliminate wear, but things like the pre-luber certainly help. Biggest problem with newer cars is where to mount it!

Frank D

 

[tdi jerry]

i can't fine a article on it now but over the last twenty years or so i have read many many articles on cold start engines and all had more wear at start up so thinner would better in my cars vw tdi diesel i use Mobil 1 5w40 and a vw gas engine car gets Mobil 1 0w40 and a ford Taurus gets mobil 1 5w20 so that is my two cents worth.

 

[aquariuscsm]

In all honesty,I`m with the poster who said "the rest of the car will fall to pieces before the engine wears out". I`ve actually never seen engine failure in a car before,but I`ve definitely seen cars that look like they`d literally crumble before your eyes but still run perfect! It`s just a BITOG thing,we`re all just a lil ocd about our motor oil :^),but that`s what makes this site so much fun!

On a different note concerning startup,I`ve noticed if I take off the oil fill cap on my car,no matter how long it`s sat unstarted the camshafts are still sitting in a bath of motor oil ready for that first turn of the key.

 

[FZ1]

Gal. Don't be "that way". Just go to WM, get a 5 qt jug of synthetic,Mobil 1 Ep in my case,change it every 6k,fill it to the top full line on the dipstick. Top it up to the full line as needed during the oil run,repeat. That's good enough. Hope this helps.

 

[Oilgal]

 

[Greggy_D]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Just go to WM, get a 5 qt jug of synthetic,Mobil 1 Ep in my case,change it every 6k,


You're wasting your money on 6k changes with M1 EP. To each their own though.