Most reliable old man car: Grand Marquis or Buick Lucerne?

[JTK]

Given the age of the vehicles you are interested in, I'd go with what ever is in the best overall condition. IMO the make makes no difference at this point.

Full senior mode around me is mostly RAV4, Corolla, Camry, Matrix/Vibe, Forester, Outback, Equinox or any of the small GM CUVs.

Almost no crown vics, grand Marquis or 3.8L Buicks anymore.

 

[emmett442]

Owned multiples of both, ran them beyond 200k miles.

My opinion is that the Buick is the better car all around. It performs better, it drives better, it's more efficient, it's more spacious inside, and depending on the trim, has more creature comforts. While rot is a problem on any car, the Buick chassis ages slower given the same care.

The most disappointing part of the panther platform cars for me is the interior space. It's downright terrible for the exterior dimensions of the car, especially in the rear seat. A Town Car helps a bit with the slightly longer wheelbase, but still isn't that great.

 

[GON]

Given the age of the vehicles you are interested in, I'd go with what ever is in the best overall condition. IMO the make makes no difference at this point.

Full senior mode around me is mostly RAV4, Corolla, Camry, Matrix/Vibe, Forester, Outback, Equinox or any of the small GM CUVs.

Almost no crown vics, grand Marquis or 3.8L Buicks anymore.

For the 3.8L Buicks, they are not seen in Buffalo because of the corrosion, that is the sole reasons. GM for decades has screwed over its most loyal customer base of working-class people in the Northeast and Upper Midwest by using steel pipe instead of copper nickel blended pipe for brake lines. Amazing GM is well aware of this but cared not about its working class customers. Just $8 per vehicle would have solved this. Mercedes and Volvo started the switchover in the 1970s. GM, in the 2000s still could have cared less. And a few other corrosion issues on the 3.8L Buicks like strut mounts and subframes. But buy a 3.8L from the Southwest and none of these are issues.

 

[dnewton3]

It is very hard to beat a GM 3800. One can substitute bacon grease for oil and the engine wouldn't miss a beat.

I would agree; the engine is very reliable. I've not owned one, but I know people who have, and they are quite impressive. I drove one as a rental car many years ago. Quiet, and reasonably powerful.

... that Bonneville/ Park Avenue will be significantly more fuel efficient, dependable, and safer on wet roads than a Crown Vic.

I would agree the 3800 is going to be a bit more fuel efficient, but I would disagree that it will be more dependable or safer on "wet" roads.

The entire LE world used Panther cars for a couple of decades as pursuit vehicles; not so the FWD GM chassis. The entire taxi world took those used Panther cars after buying them at auctions, and then put another 200k-400k miles on them with minimal investments; not so the FWD GM chassis. The sheer number of Panthers used in very demanding service FAR, FAR exceeds any 3800 powered GM FWD chassis. One cannot fairly ignore this fact.

- The 4.6L 2v is a stalwart in reliability; it, too, cares not what lube is used as long as it's a reasonably chosen oil. (I would put the 3800 and 4.6L on a par).
- The 4R70/75W trans is very robust, and should it ever need to be rebuilt (unlikely), is FAR easier to remove and FAR cheaper to rebuild than a FWD trans. The advantage here has to go to the Panther.
- The 8.8" diff in the Fords is renowned for its durability; it's been called the modern version of the old GM 12-bolt (though nothing touches a Ford 9" ...). Again, the Panther has the advantage here, as it likely would never need a rebuild, but if it did, it can be done in-car and quickly.

As for being "safer" on wet roads, this is open for interpretation. (I don't know why a civilian would be driving so fast as to push the limits in rain anyway, but you brought it up so I'll address it .....) The Panther actually drives better being a RWD car; it won't "push" as bad in a corner as a FWD car being driven at the limits. I've owned/driven a lot of Panthers in my personal and professional life; there's nothing wrong with a Panther's handling when roads are wet. I've driven faster than most in all manner of inclement weather and a Panther does well. About the only time I'd give a nod to the FWD would be snow; it's got a bit more grip at the drive wheels, all other things being equal.

 

[emmett442]

The entire LE world used Panther cars for a couple of decades as pursuit vehicles; not so the FWD GM chassis. The entire taxi world took those used Panther cars after buying them at auctions, and then put another 200k-400k miles on them with minimal investments; not so the FWD GM chassis. The sheer number of Panthers used in very demanding service FAR, FAR exceeds any 3800 powered GM FWD chassis. One cannot fairly ignore this fact.

- The 4.6L 2v is a stalwart in reliability; it, too, cares not what lube is used as long as it's a reasonably chosen oil. (I would put the 3800 and 4.6L on a par).

^^^A lot of that is regurgitated internet here say

Contrary to what the Internet says, there is a lot more that goes into building a fleet than selecting a car that goes 400k miles. Arguably, majority is cost-benefit. What's the biggest cost of a car? No, it's not maintenance. It's purchase price and resale. That's the one factor that kept the cars in service. Used fleet cars were incredibly cheap to buy.

Why would Yellow buy a new $30k Buick, sell for $2k used up when it could purchase a $2k Crown Vic and sell for what they paid?

If the Crown Vic never existed, another car would have taken its place and would have taken on the same reputation. It's not that the Crown Vic was the only car capable. It was just the car that had the opportunity.

Now, there are half-million-mile Prius and Grand Caravans in fleet service. Doesn't mean a thing.

Also, the 4.6 is not without fault. Intake manifold leaks, exhaust manifold leaks, timing sets, occasional head gasket leaks. Good engines, not even close to "stalwart"

 

[panthermike]

I agree with choosing whichever you can find that is in the best shape overall. The GM 3.8 and Ford 4.6 are not good engines, but great! I have driven my FIL's '04 Buick with the 3.8 and it was an enjoyable drive. I preferred the ride quality, mpg and seat comfort over my Vic. I like the driving dynamics and styling of the Vic more. Compared to my Vic, his Buick gets around 3-4mpg better. The Buick definitely feels old man like haha.

 

[dumkid]

I once fixed and drove a 2001 LeSabre, it was a great old man car. It had torque and soft suspension and light steering and while the engine was somewhat tractor like and the transmission slopped between gears with no inclination to shift fast it did cruise very nicely. The reason I had it is because a friend of a friend was driving from Idaho to AZ and the water pump bearings failed. He added more coolant and kept driving so the water pump chewed up the timing cover, so we ended up doing water pump, timing cover, timing chain and tensioner, and a mass airflow sensor (it would quit reading at higher rpm according to my scan tool) and I haven't heard from the guy who owns it since then. This Buick had front bench seats so you could take all your friends cruising in geriatric style

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The last gen of the Buick LeSabre and Grand Marquis were great cars - built for ages and refined; something that doesn't happen much these days. My two favourite large Rentals. But The Grand Marquis is all hood and trunk with a mid/compact interior. But unless you are regularly tossing adult perps in the back, they are both comfortable.
Reliability will be up to that particular example you buy

 

[Rand]

As for being "safer" on wet roads, this is open for interpretation.

I would say the referred "safer" comes from not suddenly swapping ends.. unexpectedly.

I owned a 95 thunderbird with the 4.6 and an aftermarket supercharger nothing crazy modern v6's probably have more HP.
.. it was pretty squirrely in a rainstorm... let alone light snow.

I seem to recall we have a member here who went flying off the road when his crown vic shifted in rain and lost traction(or something like that)

FWD for all its shortcomings doesnt have those types of issues.

 

[JTK]

For the 3.8L Buicks, they are not seen in Buffalo because of the corrosion, that is the sole reasons. GM for decades has screwed over its most loyal customer base of working-class people in the Northeast and Upper Midwest by using steel pipe instead of copper nickel blended pipe for brake lines...

So true.

Buffalo has been home to GM and Ford plants for probably 100yrs, so it's predominately a domestic vehicle town, or at least had been. I know lots of older folks who have had the issues you describe. Brake lines, subframes, transmissions, head gaskets, etc..etc. on domestic vehicles and never went back to them because of it.

 

[Al]

Old peeps drive Buicks. Not sure what that means

 

[cb_13]

I’d go with a panther. My grandma’s LeSabre had 120k when she quit driving it. In that time she’d had many electrical issues and a transmission replacement. The 3.8 however was flawless. I just trust the Vic/MGM/Town Car platform more, the engines are a wash.

 

[gfh77665]

C Vic's and Grand M's are vastly overrated.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Avalon or ES350

There's also the Hyundai Azera, with a 3.8L V6 that makes 265 hp without a supercharger.

 

[ripcord]

A big plus for the Buicks over the Panther platform is highway fuel economy. My son's LeSabre that he inherited from his Mawmaw gets about 30 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. Can't touch that with a Crown Vic.

 

[ATex7239]

Most of the “old people car” type folks I know drive a Toyota sedan of some sort (Camry probably being most common) and the rest drive trucks.

 

[Fordiesel69]

A big plus for the Buicks over the Panther platform is highway fuel economy. My son's LeSabre that he inherited from his Mawmaw gets about 30 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. Can't touch that with a Crown Vic.

With rare 3:08 gearing on a towncar single exhaust at 70 mph you can get 26 - 28. not the 30 of the buick but real close. 2.73 and 3.27 and it goes down.

 

[OVERKILL]

A Toyota Avalon.

Beats both with ease.

Poster: "Which one of these two (non-Toyota) cars should I choose"
Toyanon: *triggered* "THEY ARE GARBAGE FROM THE BOWELS OF HELL! NOTHING BEATS TOYOTA, BUY A TOYOTA!!!!!!"

OP: Personally, I'd be inclined toward the Panther cars, having owned one, and my dad still owns one. They are reliable, cheap to own, get decent fuel mileage. I'd be looking for a GM or Town Car however, which tend to be nicer.

 

[ls1mike]

With rare 3:08 gearing on a towncar single exhaust at 70 mph you can get 26 - 28. not the 30 of the buick but real close. 2.73 and 3.27 and it goes down.

I think most to the W-Body cars had a 2.92.

 

[Elkins45]

Poster: "Which one of these two (non-Toyota) cars should I choose"
Toyanon: *triggered* "THEY ARE GARBAGE FROM THE BOWELS OF HELL! NOTHING BEATS TOYOTA, BUY A TOYOTA!!!!!!"

OP: Personally, I'd be inclined toward the Panther cars, having owned one, and my dad still owns one. They are reliable, cheap to own, get decent fuel mileage. I'd be looking for a GM or Town Car however, which tend to be nicer.

There are a lot of recommendations for an Avalon, but isn’t that just a fancy Camry with a V6? I’m a Toyota guy, there are three Toyotas in my driveway now, but sometimes a fellow just wants a little variety.

I could probably buy two Buicks for the cost of one Avalon around here. The Toyota tax is a real thing. I test drove a 2007 Avalon in the spring. 121k miles, the heater wouldn’t turn off and they still wanted 8k for it!