Ok, after seeing som eof those silly (to me) commercials that claim that their motor oil will "unleash all the hp in your engine", I was wondering if there's any truth to this statement? esp. given 2 oils, both synthetic, and both of the same grage and level base stock////wouldn't you end up with the same hp for both oils?
more hp from some synthetics?
- Thread starter Stanley Rockafeller
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Different additive packs do different things in the engines.
The base oil is meerly a carrier from A-B. But its the additive packages that give the real distingtive. Oil toughness or Film Strength is the different between a good oil and the better oil.
A Group IV PAO with a good additive would perform just as well as a base III with the same additive, the base III however would not last as long and be so clean as a PAO. Cleanliness and Good Additive packages are a rare combination.
The base oil is meerly a carrier from A-B. But its the additive packages that give the real distingtive. Oil toughness or Film Strength is the different between a good oil and the better oil.
A Group IV PAO with a good additive would perform just as well as a base III with the same additive, the base III however would not last as long and be so clean as a PAO. Cleanliness and Good Additive packages are a rare combination.
Kindly list your verifiable source(s).
I noticed a diffrence in the faster turbo spool up and performace of the engine swithing to 5w30 redline.
There is a little truth to this staement, but you have to understand the context to understant the minutia of truth.
Thinner oils (lower operating viscosity) result in lower pumping losses and since this energy was not consumed inside the engine, it makes it to the crankshaft and thus "releases all the HP in your engine".
Some oils have additive packages that result in oils that are more slipery under pressure.
The combination of effects are "just barely measurable" on a dyno. We are talking about 2%-3% more TQ/HP being read out on a dyno with an inherent precision around 3%.
So, if you have an outstanding accurate butt-o-meter, and you pay exceedingly close attention to your engine and car, you might even be able to tell if these oils did or did not release all the HP your engine has to deliver.
Thinner oils (lower operating viscosity) result in lower pumping losses and since this energy was not consumed inside the engine, it makes it to the crankshaft and thus "releases all the HP in your engine".
Some oils have additive packages that result in oils that are more slipery under pressure.
The combination of effects are "just barely measurable" on a dyno. We are talking about 2%-3% more TQ/HP being read out on a dyno with an inherent precision around 3%.
So, if you have an outstanding accurate butt-o-meter, and you pay exceedingly close attention to your engine and car, you might even be able to tell if these oils did or did not release all the HP your engine has to deliver.
Very true mitch, I noticed a diffrence more because I am running a turbo and drive it pretty hard so I can tell with a faster spool up. Naturally aspirated engines will see more of a diffrence in fuel ecconomy.
I might venture to guess that you noticed the lighter oil "by ear" before your accurately calibraed butt-o-meter registered any change.
I definitely noticed better engine response in my 02 3.1 Chevy switching from a dino to a synthetic and using the syn produced better mileage as well.
You are very correct concerning the vi of the oil, in cars that specify say 5W20 or 5w30 and an informed person not fully understanding vi and that thicker is not always better, puts in a 20W-50 has 40% more viscosity (resistance to flow) at operating temperature than 10w30.
This means that your engine has to work 40% harder just to move the oil around inside your engine. An engine with thick oil produces significantly less power, uses more fuel, produces more emissions and runs hotter, all contributing to shorter engine life. A thinner oil can more easily and quickly be pumped-up to the critical parts of the engine, takes less energy to move it around, helps the engine to produce more power, less emissions, better economy. And the engine will last longer too!
Here's a short article i got with some insight into oils...
This means that your engine has to work 40% harder just to move the oil around inside your engine. An engine with thick oil produces significantly less power, uses more fuel, produces more emissions and runs hotter, all contributing to shorter engine life. A thinner oil can more easily and quickly be pumped-up to the critical parts of the engine, takes less energy to move it around, helps the engine to produce more power, less emissions, better economy. And the engine will last longer too!
Here's a short article i got with some insight into oils...
Update 10-01-05: While that was true at the time I wrote the article, it is not now. All of Wal-Mart's 'S/T/ oil is now supplied by 'Superior Lubricants' out of Louisiana. 'Superior' is an industrial refiner, and while they are a good place, they are not supplying the same quality base stocks as when QS/Pennzoil was. Consequently, the 'Super'Tech' full synthetic oil is now a 'Group III' base stock. While very good, it is not quite as sophisticated as a good Group IV or Group V PAO base stock.
Synthetic Oils
Only oils that are made using the 'PAO' method are truly considered to be synthetic. Castrol Synthetic Syntec is NOT synthetic oil. It is simply a 'Group II base stock' that has been further refined using propane de-waxing and severe hydro-treating to give a better base stock. But it is still refined from paraffinic crude, as all conventional 'dino' motor oil is. Although the US FTC allows Castrol to call it synthetic, it cannot be labeled as synthetic in Europe. It has a different name over there. Mobil 1, Sheaffers, and Royal Purple are all good synthetics.
Synthetic lubricates MUCH better than any conventional oil, which of course reduces internal friction. An engine that is properly broken in and in good operating condition, and with fresh fluids in it will suffer practically NO wear and tear for many thousands of miles. Synthetic also does not have any of the damaging trace elements in it (phosphorous, sulfur, etc...) that helps to create sludge and corrosive acids when combined with the by-products of combustion.
The phosphorous, when combined with the remnants of the unburned hydro-carbons (gas), and then oxidized creates an acid that is chemically identical to battery acid. This most often leads to premature bearing failure and excessive cam wear. Since there is more actual oil in a full synthetic formula, there is more lubrication available to you. Plus, the relatively pure base stocks do not introduce any unwanted elements into your engine. 'P.A.O.' Synthesized oil is made of uniformly medium-sized molecules that all react in exactly a known fashion.
The very small, highly volatile molecules that are present in 'dino' are what escape past the rings causing high oil consumption. This is known as volotizing.
A Word About Synthetics
Only oils that are created using Poly-Alpha-Olephin based technology are considered to be synthetic. At least by anyone who knows better. The Castrol Syntec synthetic oil is actually just a much more thoroughly refined 'dino', coming from the same crude that all conventional 'dinos' come from. Even though their base stocks closely approach the performance of PAO synthetics, they still contain trace elements, and are still susceptible to the effects of temperature extremes that full synthetics are almost immune to. By the way, Castrol does not make their own oil. They never have. They don't even own a single refinery. Never have.
They simply but their base stocks from one of the commercial suppliers (Coastal-Unilube is one), buy a custom-blended additive package from an additive supplier, and have a bottler package and label it all for them. That doesn't mean that it isn't any good. It is very good. But in repeated testing, the Castrol products exhibit a wide variance in performance, the results of getting their products from many different suppliers. Syntec may be good, even excellent oil...but it sure ain't synthetic!
Kit Sullivan is a15+ year automotive lubrication engineer and a classic and muscle car enthusiast and collector hetic!
Synthetic Oils
Only oils that are made using the 'PAO' method are truly considered to be synthetic. Castrol Synthetic Syntec is NOT synthetic oil. It is simply a 'Group II base stock' that has been further refined using propane de-waxing and severe hydro-treating to give a better base stock. But it is still refined from paraffinic crude, as all conventional 'dino' motor oil is. Although the US FTC allows Castrol to call it synthetic, it cannot be labeled as synthetic in Europe. It has a different name over there. Mobil 1, Sheaffers, and Royal Purple are all good synthetics.
Synthetic lubricates MUCH better than any conventional oil, which of course reduces internal friction. An engine that is properly broken in and in good operating condition, and with fresh fluids in it will suffer practically NO wear and tear for many thousands of miles. Synthetic also does not have any of the damaging trace elements in it (phosphorous, sulfur, etc...) that helps to create sludge and corrosive acids when combined with the by-products of combustion.
The phosphorous, when combined with the remnants of the unburned hydro-carbons (gas), and then oxidized creates an acid that is chemically identical to battery acid. This most often leads to premature bearing failure and excessive cam wear. Since there is more actual oil in a full synthetic formula, there is more lubrication available to you. Plus, the relatively pure base stocks do not introduce any unwanted elements into your engine. 'P.A.O.' Synthesized oil is made of uniformly medium-sized molecules that all react in exactly a known fashion.
The very small, highly volatile molecules that are present in 'dino' are what escape past the rings causing high oil consumption. This is known as volotizing.
A Word About Synthetics
Only oils that are created using Poly-Alpha-Olephin based technology are considered to be synthetic. At least by anyone who knows better. The Castrol Syntec synthetic oil is actually just a much more thoroughly refined 'dino', coming from the same crude that all conventional 'dinos' come from. Even though their base stocks closely approach the performance of PAO synthetics, they still contain trace elements, and are still susceptible to the effects of temperature extremes that full synthetics are almost immune to. By the way, Castrol does not make their own oil. They never have. They don't even own a single refinery. Never have.
They simply but their base stocks from one of the commercial suppliers (Coastal-Unilube is one), buy a custom-blended additive package from an additive supplier, and have a bottler package and label it all for them. That doesn't mean that it isn't any good. It is very good. But in repeated testing, the Castrol products exhibit a wide variance in performance, the results of getting their products from many different suppliers. Syntec may be good, even excellent oil...but it sure ain't synthetic!
Kit Sullivan is a15+ year automotive lubrication engineer and a classic and muscle car enthusiast and collector hetic!
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Originally posted by Achilles:
...the base III however would not last as long and be so clean as a PAO.
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"Kindly list your verifiable source(s)."
No argument from me but a side note on AO inhibited base stock oxidation life.
ALL base stocks respond to different types and amounts of AO so they must be optimised for longest life.
That said optimised PAO and GPIII will run about the same time ASTM D-943 of about 10,000 hours to a TAN 2.
bruce
Originally posted by Achilles:
...the base III however would not last as long and be so clean as a PAO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Kindly list your verifiable source(s)."
No argument from me but a side note on AO inhibited base stock oxidation life.
ALL base stocks respond to different types and amounts of AO so they must be optimised for longest life.
That said optimised PAO and GPIII will run about the same time ASTM D-943 of about 10,000 hours to a TAN 2.
bruce
I think that the closer an engine is toward operating at its peak capacity, the more difference an oil makes. In other words, a 350 cu. in. engine making 450 hp might see a 10 hp difference with a syn oil, a 350 cuber making 250 hp wouldn't.
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