Moral claims about American content/R&D vs. Non

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Originally Posted By: AcuraTech


You like GM and Chrysler? How many US jobs have they added in the past 30 years? The number is insanely negative, and getting more negative by the day. If you don't like Honda and Toyota because you think they take away US jobs, you're a fool. Both companies have added hundreds of thousands of US jobs in the past 30 years.
....


Yeah right, jobs at the expense of the US companies. What are Honda and Toyota doing here if in the end they aren't sending gobs of money back to Japan? Dividents and interest that flow to stock and bond holders get spent somewhere just like taxes and wages.
 
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
My Toyota Corolla was 100% built in USA with most parts made in America.



Corolla is 55-60% domestic parts content last time I checked. Assembly is in California.
Your wrong.

A manual transmission Corolla is in the high 70s when I bought mine.

So it's ok for "profits" to go to America but parts and assembly in Mexico with parts made there is a good thing.
smirk2.gif


I'd BET large amounts that it is BETTER than a vehicle is made and assembled IN America no MATTER what the brand over a "American" name plate made in another country.

So, I'll take either one of my vehicles over a Fusion or PT Cruiser as they employ more Americans.

Plus I get a vehicle that does not nickle and dime me to death.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
The best way to support local jobs is to take an old car, foreign or domestic, and have it repaired at a local shop and drive that.


Would fix some of the debt problems people in our 2 countries got themselves into eh?
 
I couldn't care less where the vehicle was assembled, or where all the sub assemblies were built, and what company has the bragging rights to the logo on the grill.

I do like the information and the parts content breakdown, but it makes little to no difference in my buying decision. As long as it's reliable I couldn't care less.

I look and functionality first, then price. If a vehicle fits my needs and appears to be reasonably reliable I'll make the purchase. If that vehicle is branded by one of the "big 3" that's fine. If it's branded by a "foreign" company it makes no difference.

The idea that the "big 3" are American companies is as antiquated as the Model T. They are diversified global competitors and parts/assemblies come from all over the world. That they happen to have headquarters in the United States is meaningless.
 
When ford quit making the original taurus it was revealed 24 hours of labor needed for final assembly at their Atlanta plant.

Assuming other marques can throw a vehicle together comparably quickly, that's only a modest amount of actual labor. (I know there are more hours for R&D, the tool and die makers etc.)

One probably gets a similar number of exclusive man hours of service on a weeklong cruise... on a Liberian flagged vessel not beholden to US labor practices. IDK the wage taxes on foreign flagged ships but I bet they don't make it
34.gif
here either.
 
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: AcuraTech

You like GM and Chrysler? How many US jobs have they added in the past 30 years? The number is insanely negative, and getting more negative by the day. If you don't like Honda and Toyota because you think they take away US jobs, you're a fool. Both companies have added hundreds of thousands of US jobs in the past 30 years.
....
Yeah right, jobs at the expense of the US companies. What are Honda and Toyota doing here if in the end they aren't sending gobs of money back to Japan? Dividents and interest that flow to stock and bond holders get spent somewhere just like taxes and wages.


Since the 1980s the United States has been an attractive place to invest, and to build factories so long as you avoid a union shop. The companies that have relocated from the US to other countries were either been running away from unions, or else they were in low-tech industries where cheap labor was the principle factor (such as textiles).

I fear that the investment climate is becoming less friendly. The way the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies have been handled, it is going to be harder to sell corporate bonds to foreigners. With new environmental regulations and higher corporate taxes on the horizon, it is going to be harder to make a case for expanding in the United States. If I owned a factory in the US, or was thinking about starting a company, or simply had money to invest in a business, I would be looking at other countries.

For centuries, immigrants have come to America because they've seen it as the land of opportunity. Now they and we must look elsewhere. I'm not sure where, there are not that many other choices, but sit back and watch. Soon you will see companies moving their corporate headquarters out of the US, like Halliburton moved to Dubai a year or two ago. And you will see entrepreneurs setting up shop outside the US, outside the EU -- maybe in Singapore or Israel or Colombia, or in some little country that President Obama will label a tax haven. (Why can't the United States of America be a tax haven too?)
 
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
I can't disagree with anything anybody has said so far. But the problem I have with "Buy American" is like was previously stated - how do you define "American"? Is a Chevy with a Chinese built engine more American than a Toyota that was built in the US?


As I stated in another thread, MY personal criterion is where the company ownership lies and where the engineering R&D is done. By that standard, the Chevy is FAR more "American" than the Toyota (although I don't like the fact that the Chevy engine is built in China and would try to pick a model that doesn't use that engine). I could care less where a car is final-assembled. My '66 Dodge was built in Ontario, so assembly plants in Canada and Mexico are nothing new. The best car we ever owned (93 Vision TSi) was built in Bramlea CA. Wife's PT (assembled in Mexico) is proving to be a great car. But in all those cases, all the important brain work (engineering, R&D, etc.) was done in Detroit or Highland Park, and the profits all eventually came home to roost in the US (and a percentage in Germany in the case of the PT which was built during the Daimler years).

I don't begrudge people for choosing to buy a Japanese or Korean brand, but its not something I personally care to do. I *might* buy German, but not likely. Too much cost, too little benefit.


What DOES bother me is that consumers have spent so long looking at nothing but the price sticker that there are whole classes of product that you virtually CANNOT buy American-made (or even western-made) anymore, AND you can't get truly good-quality products of that type anymore. Just look at the huge percentage of production of everything from tennis shoes to toasters to air conditioners that is now pouring in from China, and most people never realized that it was happening. Worst of all, the quality is horrible on a lot of those things, and people are of the opinion that's OK since the price was so low. I don't like our trend to a throw-away society. My wife likes antiques in her kitchen, so I bought her a 1949 Sunbeam mixer a few years ago, and she uses it *ALL* the time. It works like a precision watch- good as the day it was new 60 years ago. How long do you think a modern chinese-made Sunbeam might list? 3 years? 5 tops? Brand new out of the box, the gears sound like they're full of sand. Its deplorable.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
The best way to support local jobs is to take an old car, foreign or domestic, and have it repaired at a local shop and drive that.


Then I must be the most patriotic guy on the planet!

wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
As I stated in another thread, MY personal criterion is where the company ownership lies and where the engineering R&D is done...

Apparently you haven't been reading the Detroit newspapers for the past couple of years where there have been sporadic stories of engineering design and development teams from General Motors being laid off and the work sent offshore (mainly India). I'm guessing that within the past decade GM has half the engineers that they used to have here in America.

Toyota recently opened an engineering center near Ann Arbor.
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Your wrong.

A manual transmission Corolla is in the high 70s when I bought mine.



The ones I looked at in 2006 had tags claiming 60%; cars.com says the 2009s are 50%. I stand by my post. However if need be I'll stop by and check some new ones as there's a Toyota dealer nearby.
 
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red


I fear that the investment climate is becoming less friendly. The way the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies have been handled, it is going to be harder to sell corporate bonds to foreigners. With new environmental regulations and higher corporate taxes on the horizon, it is going to be harder to make a case for expanding in the United States.



Very understated; if the way the Chrysler and pending GM bankruptcy treatment of secured creditors is allowed to stand on appeal, one would be a complete fool to buy any type of asset backed corporate debt instrument in the future.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
I can't disagree with anything anybody has said so far. But the problem I have with "Buy American" is like was previously stated - how do you define "American"? Is a Chevy with a Chinese built engine more American than a Toyota that was built in the US?

Also - I find it hard to be loyal to a car company that has not been loyal to me. I open the hood of my Chevy SUV, the first thing I see is posted on BOTH headlight assemblies - "Made in Mexico". Not that I have anything against Mexico - but how many people in the U.S could have used the job of assembling those headlights?

PLUS - how many of the "American" car companies have been or are in bed with other non "American" companies? GM with Toyota - Ford with Nissan, Chrysler with Mitsubishi - the list goes on and on.
Pardon the crudeness - but to me it's like being faithful to a hooker!



So buying products that your company makes in the US is like being unfaithful to your wife with a prostitute? No wonder this country is failing with view points like that.


Please! You are twisting what I said and totally missed the point.

Let me try to say it again. Why should I be faithful to an auto maker that is not faithful to me (us the American people)? How many jobs have gone overseas due to various parts being built elsewhere?
As I mentioned ALL the "American" car companies have gone "overseas". Pontiac can't build a decent small car? So they slap a badge on a Toyota and call it a Pontiac? So in this case GM is selling "foreign" cars, yet we should be faithful to them and only "buy American"? If you can't see that, then you have some severe problems!

Do you think GM or any other car maker REALLY cares about the American workers or buyers? If you do I have beach front property in Phoenix (complete with a bridge) for sale real cheap!
 
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Your wrong.

A manual transmission Corolla is in the high 70s when I bought mine.



The ones I looked at in 2006 had tags claiming 60%; cars.com says the 2009s are 50%. I stand by my post. However if need be I'll stop by and check some new ones as there's a Toyota dealer nearby.


I have yet to see an import in the high 70's for domestic parts content. My job isn't really threatened by the auto industry, but I still buy Domestic cars with a high parts content. 2004 Impala 90% parts and assembled in Canada, 2008 Colorado 77% and assembled in the USA. Wife's Malibu is 85% and assembled in USA. Son's 2002 Cavalier 85% and assembled in USA.
 
Do you guys actually believe in the posted domestic content? My colleagues and I cannot understand how they can accurately calculate domestic content. How far back do they go for their calculations? Is it where the part is painted?... machined?... stamped?... the steel mill? The whole process of calculating domestic content is too messy and nebulous to mean anything. A single part could have passed through numerous countries outside of the US before it lands in a vehicle. I know our parts do.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Do you guys actually believe in the posted domestic content?


I believe it's the best information available to the public. Sometimes you just have to go with the information you have rather than the information you wish you had.

It's good enough for me and has some effect on my car buying.
 
The Japanese use the worst steel on their car bodies,rust out worse the domestic cars.I see them going down the road,any Japanese car with the worst rust spots.Any thing Foriegn,you pay more for repairs including the parts.Do this,price a part for a domestic and a foriegn car.The price of the part for the domestic will be cheaper.With Kias,the insurance is very high on them.Japanese cars have electrical problems which are very expensive.My father went to a seminar on car electrical systems by Auto Value parts stores and the instructor said this.One sensor goes bad on a Honda goes bad,the ECM is toast.Plus Honda loves using vacuum hoses,one intake manifold uses 50 vacuum hose fittings.One wrecking yard in my area makes sure they are still hooked up on the intake manifold or the customer will not buy it.Another yard in my area,Economy Auto parts in Muskegon,Mi does get calls for the Corolla engines and Jimmy the owner wishes he had lot of those selling them for $1,500.00 each.They are hard to get.The automatic transmissions do fall out of them too,my father spoke to another dealer and this other used car dealer said this.The 3.0 v6s in the Toyotas mini truck cannot keep waterpumps and head gaskets in them and this was said on Extreme 4x4.They had one on the show with a bad 3.0,still have it and converted the drivetrian to a Chevy drivetrain.
 
One intake mainfold uses 50 vacuum hose fittings, from when, 1980?

Instead of living life second and third hand, and two decades ago. Get out and take a look at these cars you keep telling us about after hearing from your dad.
 
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