Moly Level In Engine Oil

I don't care what Teost 33c says when I've seen cleaner turbo center sections on RL and HPL than I have with any API oil.
I'm not privy to that information and have not seen turbo center section teardowns after use. Can you share some photos of what you've seen?

Amsoil and Mobil have shown some images after the demanding GM turbo test.

There is talk and there is data. 300,000 engineers are going to provide data if they're good engineers.

I would expect HPL to show excellent results in a turbo despite the TEOST 33c results.

1766081821049.webp


1766081846308.webp


1766081862996.webp
 
Last edited:
I think it’s important to have the test data available. My thinking has changed a bit recently in assuming all boutiques are superior based solely on ingredient quality.
 
I'm not privy to that information and have not seen turbo center section teardowns after use. Can you share some photos of what you've seen?

Amsoil and Mobil have shown some images after the demanding GM turbo test.

There is talk and there is data. 300,000 engineers are going to provide data if they're good engineers.

I would expect HPL to show excellent results in a turbo despite the TEOST 33c results.

View attachment 315519

View attachment 315521

View attachment 315522
As we discussed previously, the reason GM has their own coking test and so does Toyota, is because of how uncorrelated TEOST 33C was with real world performance. I suspect Toyota may have also been motivated by the moly issue, since, as we recall, older TGMO formulas used a lot of moly, and that would have presented in 33C I assume.
 
I would expect HPL No VII, which is what I think Lake tested, would run exceptionally clean in a turbo.
 
Last edited:
I think it’s important to have the test data available. My thinking has changed a bit recently in assuming all boutiques are superior based solely on ingredient quality.
You absolutely can't make that assumption, I agree.

Mini-rant here:

This is a complex subject, lubrication. Any efforts to dumb it down destroys the necessary nuance, be it via results of a singular test like TEOST 33C or IIIH, via ingredient selection, like PAO or AN's or esters, or via basic approvals predicated on pretty mediocre performance requirements (API) or sometimes even high performance requirements (LL-01) that necessarily restrict formulation flexibility (Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0W-40 regaining LL-01).

I've made it abundantly clear over the years that I don't think too highly of the basic API approvals. Given how mediocre some of the oils are that meet the performance requirements, I think that's a reasonable position. It's the same reason GM developed dexos. The Euro marques have always been ahead of the curve here with their own demanding performance tests layered on top of the basic ACEA protocols. Yes, you can buy an oil that's just A3/B4 for example, but if you own a Bimmer, Benz or VAG product, it's not going to be appropriate for any of them. I think this was well-evidenced in a past discussion that was had about the appropriateness of Euro approvals in non-Euro applications, where I made it a point to flesh out the fact that dexos includes several of the Euro OEM engine tests.

The API restricts phosphorous because it also only restricts Noack to 15%. Phosphorous is not restricted on heavier oils (xW-40 and above) because they are less likely to end up in the exhaust system. xW-16 and 0W-20 were both exempt from TEOST 33C under API SP (despite my opinions on TEOST) and xW-16 and below were exempt from Sequence VIE, while xW-20 had a higher limit. xW-16 was also exempt from Sequence VIII. This underscores that the API performance standard isn't a monolith, thinner oils, while having their AW chemistry limited, are also either exempt or provided with higher limits for several of the test sequences.

Historically, most of this hasn't applied to Euro oils, which were driven by the requirements of the OEM's on grades that were generally exempt from the API limits, but as they've embraced thinner oils, this has caused some issues. We've seen how this has played out for both OEM's and blenders, with many of them producing products that are "API SL" to side-step the phosphorous limit, or, like Mobil does, notes "meets API SP engine test requirements" while the product itself isn't API SP due to non-compliance.

All that said, the API does establish a minimum performance framework, and that's generally good for Joe Average, as it establishes a floor, even if that floor also inadvertently restricts formulation flexibility. When we look at products like SynLube, City Star or basically anything on the PQIA watch list, this importance is emphasized.

The API is a bit like the FDA. McDonalds passes the FDA requirements, so does Taco Bell and all manner of food that will shorten your lifespan. It's a minimum level of QA, not a Michelin star.

Boutiques that choose to operate outside the API framework have a whole host of different approaches they can take, depending on their intentions. Boutique, in my mind, does not imply high quality just like name brand doesn't imply mediocre. Mobil 1 isn't McDonalds. There are boutiques out there making up grades like their oils are bespoke artisan creations not beholden to any conventional standards, those are not products I'd be interested in or assume are actually high performance. It's like a guy jamming together speakers in his garage, there's no guarantee that these things are actually going to be good.

Some boutique blenders, like AMSOIL and HPL, work with the additive companies (Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton...etc) to purchase additive packages that they then blend with high quality base oils and VII's (from those same additive companies), then run their own testing to further improve the performance while top-treating. So here, you are starting with components that were approved and then further refining the product, improving its performance. This can also allow for the creation of unique blends, like the A3/B4, LL-01, A40, 229.5...etc full-SAPS additive package that HPL blended into a 0W-20 for me.

On the other hand, we've seen some boutiques recommend their products for conflicting specifications/approvals, which is a red flag. Synlube is "boutique", and hot garbage. I wouldn't trust a thing Lucas sells due to their perpetual "oil stabilizer" grift. Anyone remember the saga of BND "Quantum Blue"?
 
I think sometimes we think more is better with oil when in reality it's the better balance is that is better. Of course you can skimp out and cut costs and also use cheaper components.

Red Line has kind of been one of those oils that looks great but seems to do just OK. Does well in some engines, not so well in others. One of the guys from Bimmerworld said some moved away from RL as they saw no improvement and got as good or better results with the BMW oil.

I've also seen COF tests done with RL and dynos where RL produced less HP than oils with much less moly. So you don't know until you really test the heck out of it.
To me Redline does not really seem to be that attractive judging from the VOA. Seems to be still relying on outdated detergent/dispersent chemistry. Way too much Calcium that it should have. At least for the flavors I have looked into
 
You absolutely can't make that assumption, I agree.

Mini-rant here:

This is a complex subject, lubrication. Any efforts to dumb it down destroys the necessary nuance, be it via results of a singular test like TEOST 33C or IIIH, via ingredient selection, like PAO or AN's or esters, or via basic approvals predicated on pretty mediocre performance requirements (API) or sometimes even high performance requirements (LL-01) that necessarily restrict formulation flexibility (Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0W-40 regaining LL-01).

I've made it abundantly clear over the years that I don't think too highly of the basic API approvals. Given how mediocre some of the oils are that meet the performance requirements, I think that's a reasonable position. It's the same reason GM developed dexos. The Euro marques have always been ahead of the curve here with their own demanding performance tests layered on top of the basic ACEA protocols. Yes, you can buy an oil that's just A3/B4 for example, but if you own a Bimmer, Benz or VAG product, it's not going to be appropriate for any of them. I think this was well-evidenced in a past discussion that was had about the appropriateness of Euro approvals in non-Euro applications, where I made it a point to flesh out the fact that dexos includes several of the Euro OEM engine tests.

The API restricts phosphorous because it also only restricts Noack to 15%. Phosphorous is not restricted on heavier oils (xW-40 and above) because they are less likely to end up in the exhaust system. xW-16 and 0W-20 were both exempt from TEOST 33C under API SP (despite my opinions on TEOST) and xW-16 and below were exempt from Sequence VIE, while xW-20 had a higher limit. xW-16 was also exempt from Sequence VIII. This underscores that the API performance standard isn't a monolith, thinner oils, while having their AW chemistry limited, are also either exempt or provided with higher limits for several of the test sequences.

Historically, most of this hasn't applied to Euro oils, which were driven by the requirements of the OEM's on grades that were generally exempt from the API limits, but as they've embraced thinner oils, this has caused some issues. We've seen how this has played out for both OEM's and blenders, with many of them producing products that are "API SL" to side-step the phosphorous limit, or, like Mobil does, notes "meets API SP engine test requirements" while the product itself isn't API SP due to non-compliance.

All that said, the API does establish a minimum performance framework, and that's generally good for Joe Average, as it establishes a floor, even if that floor also inadvertently restricts formulation flexibility. When we look at products like SynLube, City Star or basically anything on the PQIA watch list, this importance is emphasized.

The API is a bit like the FDA. McDonalds passes the FDA requirements, so does Taco Bell and all manner of food that will shorten your lifespan. It's a minimum level of QA, not a Michelin star.

Boutiques that choose to operate outside the API framework have a whole host of different approaches they can take, depending on their intentions. Boutique, in my mind, does not imply high quality just like name brand doesn't imply mediocre. Mobil 1 isn't McDonalds. There are boutiques out there making up grades like their oils are bespoke artisan creations not beholden to any conventional standards, those are not products I'd be interested in or assume are actually high performance. It's like a guy jamming together speakers in his garage, there's no guarantee that these things are actually going to be good.

Some boutique blenders, like AMSOIL and HPL, work with the additive companies (Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton...etc) to purchase additive packages that they then blend with high quality base oils and VII's (from those same additive companies), then run their own testing to further improve the performance while top-treating. So here, you are starting with components that were approved and then further refining the product, improving its performance. This can also allow for the creation of unique blends, like the A3/B4, LL-01, A40, 229.5...etc full-SAPS additive package that HPL blended into a 0W-20 for me.

On the other hand, we've seen some boutiques recommend their products for conflicting specifications/approvals, which is a red flag. Synlube is "boutique", and hot garbage. I wouldn't trust a thing Lucas sells due to their perpetual "oil stabilizer" grift. Anyone remember the saga of BND "Quantum Blue"?
I really read your messages like articles from top journals. They are always super informative, down to earth, and just makes sense. I don`t know about quite a few points you have mentioned there, but totally agreed that, API approval is very similar to to FDA approvals. Both a greasy sausage and an organic grass fed low fat meat will be "FDA Approved" but that does not mean they will be as good for your veins as eachother. But that does mean neither of those will kill you in the short run (at least for most people). I am quite happy API exists so that there is a floor to quality, which matters for most of us, even to the members of this forum, since we all purchase a used vehicle at some point.

My only wish at this point is this: I wish the oil analysis also included tungsten/titanium in their results. That would be very informative for people like me who want to learn more about these things, but not working in this industry. For example, I did not know aobut amsoil`s race oil not having moly in it, and all this time high molly (along with zddp) striked me as the biggest differentiator of racing oil
 
I really read your messages like articles from top journals. They are always super informative, down to earth, and just makes sense. I don`t know about quite a few points you have mentioned there, but totally agreed that, API approval is very similar to to FDA approvals. Both a greasy sausage and an organic grass fed low fat meat will be "FDA Approved" but that does not mean they will be as good for your veins as eachother. But that does mean neither of those will kill you in the short run (at least for most people). I am quite happy API exists so that there is a floor to quality, which matters for most of us, even to the members of this forum, since we all purchase a used vehicle at some point.

My only wish at this point is this: I wish the oil analysis also included tungsten/titanium in their results. That would be very informative for people like me who want to learn more about these things, but not working in this industry. For example, I did not know aobut amsoil`s race oil not having moly in it, and all this time high molly (along with zddp) striked me as the biggest differentiator of racing oil
Thanks, appreciate that!

Yes, would be nice to se a broader slate of elements tested for in used oil analysis. OAI/Polaris tests for Antimony and a few other metals that Blackstone doesn't, but they don't test for Tungsten.
 
To me Redline does not really seem to be that attractive judging from the VOA. Seems to be still relying on outdated detergent/dispersent chemistry. Way too much Calcium that it should have. At least for the flavors I have looked into
It depends on the SA. As far as overall quality, I honestly don't know. On paper they're as good as it gets in some areas. Sometimes old/tried and true is better. They've been around for a long time, like Amsoil. They're highly regarded in some racing circles. I just have nothing to go off of other than used oil analysis and fact they use PAO/ester.

The few testimonials I've read that used RL long term reported excellent results. Very shear stable oil in real service from what I've seen over the years. Built more like a racing oil.

I don't think many on the ROC like RL in service as it gets acidic quick (TAN>TBN).
 
Last edited:
I honestly don't know. On paper they're as good as it gets in some areas. Sometimes old/tried and true is better. They've been around for a long time, like Amsoil. They're highly regarded in some racing circles. I just have nothing to go off of other than used oil analysis and fact they use PAO/ester.

The few testimonials I've read that used RL long term reported excellent results.
I don`t know anything about their racing oils really. I highly regard their gear/dif/atf products. On the racing circles, I think people often have "if it ain`t broke, don`t fix it" thinking. I have no doubt their base oil and VII are good quality.
 
But the extra Moly supposed to provide better wear protection
Yeah, not really. Unfortunately oil is a multivariate optimisation problem. If you add molly to a no additive base oil, the chances are you are right. But ones it is a well balanced oil, i don't think that is how it works.
 
But the extra Moly supposed to provide better wear protection
Yeah, not really. Unfortunately oil is a multivariate optimisation problem. If you add molly to a no additive base oil, the chances are you are right. But ones it is a well balanced oil, i don't think that is how it works.
Here is my understanding further. I would really appreciate if someone who knows these better than I do can chime in ( @OVERKILL )

Molly is a polar additive, it creates a lameller boundary protection structure on the surface, which can really help with antiwear. My track car is known to have oil starvation at certain extreme conditions, and this is why I opt for a high molly oil (motul 300v) hoping it might make a difference.

But there are other polar molecules in the oil (ZDDP, detergent/dispersant ads, certain base oils)

So when you increase one, you tip the scale, and hurt the efficacy of the other ones. Yes molly is an antiwear additive, so is ZDDP. But they provide different kind of protection, and how certain are you that higher molly sourced antiwear properties worth the decreased efficacy from zddp?

Another point is, it can react to moisture and sulfur, creating an acidic product hurting the TBN.

Finally, you want to make sure molly stays in suspension. Adding too much can make it fall. I dont think this is relevant for LM product though, it should have enough dispersant add as well in it.

Overall what i am trying to say is, molly is one of the best inventions in the oil additives. But it is about the balance.
 
Here is my understanding further. I would really appreciate if someone who knows these better than I do can chime in ( @OVERKILL )

Molly is a polar additive, it creates a lameller boundary protection structure on the surface, which can really help with antiwear. My track car is known to have oil starvation at certain extreme conditions, and this is why I opt for a high molly oil (motul 300v) hoping it might make a difference.

But there are other polar molecules in the oil (ZDDP, detergent/dispersant ads, certain base oils)

So when you increase one, you tip the scale, and hurt the efficacy of the other ones. Yes molly is an antiwear additive, so is ZDDP. But they provide different kind of protection, and how certain are you that higher molly sourced antiwear properties worth the decreased efficacy from zddp?

Another point is, it can react to moisture and sulfur, creating an acidic product hurting the TBN.

Finally, you want to make sure molly stays in suspension. Adding too much can make it fall. I dont think this is relevant for LM product though, it should have enough dispersant add as well in it.

Overall what i am trying to say is, molly is one of the best inventions in the oil additives. But it is about the balance.
Moly has a synergistic relationship with ZDDP. Moly, by itself, is an FM with AW properties that don't approach those of ZDDP. However, when you add moly to ZDDP, you improve the overall AW performance. This is why you see such high levels of moly in oils like HPL, Driven...etc.

The amount of moly, and type(s) (as there are numerous) as well as the addition of other FM's, like tungsten, titanium, antimony...etc. will vary depending on how the rest of the formula responds to those additions through testing.

Based on my conversation with Dave at @High Performance Lubricants, they use different types of moly in concert, as dimer and trimer moly as a blend provides better performance than either by themselves. The ratio varies, as these combinations are tested to determine optimal performance levels. Other FM's are also potentially added to the mix, if they prove to improve performance further.

The PCMO we were discussing recently in another thread had considerably more moly in it than the Supercar oil, which had higher levels of ZDDP and a different base oil blend and these oils are based on different additive chemistries (API vs ACEA), so this shows how the FM treat rate may vary considerably in response to different base oils and additive package chemistries.

Here's another post that contains some FM performance data:
 
Back
Top Bottom