Moly in Engine Oils

buster · Dec 13, 2002

Not trying to stir up anything but Amsoil sent me an email and said that there labs detected no Molybdenum in Mobil 1 SuperSync. They said it could be bc there are many different forms of it and that the FTIR scanning machine might not detect it, which is most likely the case or that the M1 SS wasn't the final formulation. Amsoil also said they prefer not too use it over what they use and that Molybdenum is a controversial antiwear agent. That is the latest. Sounds more like Amsoil doesnt prefer to use it rather then that they are technologically behind the competition. Doesn't really mean anything, bc all these synthetics are great. Its just interesting to see the different formulations and how they approach it differntly.

[ December 13, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

Patman · Dec 13, 2002

Amsoil's lab probably got an early batch of SuperSyn, which we know didn't have moly.

We've seen enough SuperSyn results now that prove without a shadow of doubt that the latest version contains moly.

MolaKule · Dec 13, 2002

Here is my personal opinion:

Al stated some time ago he would not put any solid-type lubrcant additives in his formulations.

He also said that he would never use dinos, but he did.

Now, Al is between a rock and a hard place. Now that most high-performance oils are using moly, his earlier statement(s) prevents him from using any moly for if he did, this would show him and his company to be a "two-time" hypocrite.

buster · Dec 13, 2002

Good question. I think it has something to do with there long life formulation. They might feel that whay they use is just as good. Who knows? Whatever additives they are using apparently are not too compatible with Moly. This is the only thing they have been able to tell me. They havn't been able to explain themselves that well regarding Moly. Bottom line, all of these oils are first rate and are great oils but Amsoil could be falling behind. But i'll tell you after reading the BMW great oil debate link i posted, Amsoil claims there 0w-30 is 5yrs ahead of the competition and that it is by far there best oil. That is a BOLD statement. The lead engineer said he couldn't go into detail on all of the antiwear elements but said it was the best he ever saw. Not that it would make a huge difference, I might just switch to an oil with Moly like M1. Why not when M1 is cheaper. I find it interesting though in how each company formulates there oils differently.

[ December 14, 2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

pedaltothemetal · Dec 14, 2002

I really do think moly isn't needed in engines based on the chemical analysis shown with the majority of virgin engine oils. I have observed that most all the smaller synthetic oil companies blend their own oil with a synthetic base they do not manufacture themselves. Why they have moly...to pass the timkin test and sell more product...good sales pitch perhaps or extra insurance for the unknown? What I do know is the major oil companies use antiwear additives ZDP, or Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate. These additives chemically react with iron to prevent welding of moving metal surfaces. What happens is essentially a chemical polishing of the metal surface.
The surface gets plated with either Iron Phosphate or Iron Sulfate, both of which are softer than the base Iron. This chemical reaction occurs in the 300 to 400 F range, and the Zinc is a temperature controlling carrier (controls the temperature at which the reaction occurs. When the two metal surfaces come in contact, a small amount of the surface plating is 'scraped' off of the surface. This is replenished by more ZDP contact with the metal. This action prevents the metals welding through heat generated by high friction contact. The seems to be enough to prevent metal to metal contact. The ZDP in the lubricant may last up to 20,000 miles and more depending on the amount used. I see the extended drain synthetic oils have a lot of this to go the distance.

Bror Jace · Dec 14, 2002

Patman: “Amsoil's lab probably got an early batch of SuperSyn, which we know didn't have moly. We've seen enough SuperSyn results now that prove without a shadow of doubt that the latest version contains moly.”

Isn’t it odd, Patman, that some SL examples of Tri-Synthetic had around 80ppms of moly while some SuperSyn smaples did not? I think this was a blending problem associated with just one of the plants producing Mobil 1.

As for what Amsoil is doing/will do with their formulas, I have no idea. I’ve never thought their oils were as good as they claim. They seem to claim they are in a league of their own and I find this attitude off-putting. This attitude, amplified and distorted by some of their “overly exuberant” dealers is the reason I’ve avoided it to date.

And if I want use a moderately priced, easy to find, PAO-based synthetic formula, I’ll use Mobil 1. I wouldn’t bother with their questionable Tri-Synthetic formula after having used it for years ...

... and hopefully their bad batches of moly-less SuperSyn are off the shelves by now.

— Bror Jace

PS - pedal, then why did Pennzoil, Castrol and Mobil all add moly to many/most of their oils? Less than 1% of the people who buy oil know what a Timken test is.

MolaKule · Dec 14, 2002

Pedal,

You might have missed an earlier explanation but here is why I think oil formulators are using Moly:

ZDDP and MoTDC react similarly.

When I mention temperatures (in this context), I am referring to surface (metal-to-metal) temperatures, not the bulk oil temperatures.

ZDDP and MoTDC go into the oil solution and form organosulfur (carbon-sulfur) compounds.

At about 450 F, the zinc polyphosphates form a fluid glass; it is this glass that lubricates the surfaces.

At 500-800 F, the moly polycarbamates form a glass-like layer that lubricates the surfaces when the ZDDP can no longer do so.

The dithiocarbamates of moly are often referred to as Anti-Wear additives, but also present Extreme Pressure properties as well. The higher the loads (and after the hydrodynamic layer breaks down), the mixed or boundary lubrication conditions exist. The zinc causing damage to the cat is true, and there are two ways to cure it. One is to reduce the amount of zinc in the oil. The other way, which the oil companies did, is to reduce the volatility of the oil so the zinc stays in the oil and does not pass through the engine to the cat. In addition to moly being a great FM, AW/EP, and anti-oxidant additives, there are two side benefits to moly additives; they reduce Cat poinsoning and reduce NOx emmisions.

Combustion temps are higher with the lean mixtures now running under ECU control.

buster · Dec 14, 2002

I don't have the chemistry knowledge to go into the detail that is found on these posts but I will say the trend is that Moly is beneficial. Why else would all the top brands be using it? I think it has more to do with it's abilities rather then marketing.

OneQuartLow · Dec 14, 2002

Its abilities, and necessity borne of forced reductions elsewhere? I would guess everyone who's using it is working on lower cost solutions too but for the interim it seems to be sticking. (heh)

David

mormit · Dec 14, 2002

The use of organometallics is becoming universal due to the benefits and necessity.

Benefits: Plates at higher temps than ZDDP giving a wider temperature range of protection.

Necessity: As regulations drive the levels of ZDDP lower, something must make up the difference.

Maybe AL can skip moly and add antimony compounds. Could say "We're leading the way and didn't give in to the moly bruhaha".

pedaltothemetal · Dec 14, 2002

I have been reading more and more and find that moly is in most racing blends. It must be a secondary EP protection in case the normal AW temperatures are breeched. Redline is mainly a racing oil, and Royal Purple Racing oils have a lot of it. I bet you the proprietary Mobil 1 racing oils used in major races have it too.
BTW I better stop reasearching or I'm going to be an Oil Fanatic!

Patman · Dec 14, 2002

At the same time, does Amsoil want to let other oil companies lead the way with the latest technology while they lag behind? Why would they avoid using an additive that has been proven to reduce engine wear?

Patman · Dec 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:

Isn’t it odd, Patman, that some SL examples of Tri-Synthetic had around 80ppms of moly while some SuperSyn smaples did not? I think this was a blending problem associated with just one of the plants producing Mobil 1.

When my sister's oil change is due it will be very interesting to see if any larger than normal amounts of moly show up (more than 20ppm that is) since I put the rare SL formula TriSynthetic in there. It still puzzles me that Mobil 1 would reformulate their TriSynthetic, only to have it on the shelves for about one month, and then go to SuperSyn. I emailed Mobil 1 and they tell me that SuperSyn is indeed different than SL TriSynthetic. We'll see for sure when my sister's two oil analysis results are finished (I am following the TriSynth oil interval with a SuperSyn interval)

I really hope that since Canada was about 6 months behind the US in recieving it's first shipments of SuperSyn, that this means there is no chance of getting a "moly-less" batch. When I put SuperSyn in my mom's car in a week or two, it will stay in there for probably a year, and I'll be pretty ticked off at the end of that if the analysis shows it to be a moly free batch.

edit-although on second thought, if I do get a moly free batch of SuperSyn, it would be a good test to compare it to a followup interval with the moly laden SuperSyn, just to see exactly how the addition of moly improved the engine wear numbers.

[ December 15, 2002, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

widman · Dec 14, 2002

Thanks for the good post Molakule..... I think I now have the answer to my question of why Chevron does not put moly in their Supreme and Delo products (lower temps), but puts >300ppm in the products for the big natural gas engines and they run with so much less wear for 2 to 3 times the oil life of other brands. The temperatures in these engines is up there in the latter category.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Dec 14, 2002

Let me point out that in the use of the timken machine, it does not take 300degs of temp for moly to start plating. I can put any of schaeffers moly fluid in the machine and just the slightest bit of friction will start the plating action of moly and immediatly quite down the bearing. I'm not sure just what the higher temps refer to in the above posts but in the soluble moly used by schaeffers, this little bit of heat activates the moly very quickly. Let me rephrase my comment and say that the barrier additive properties of the schaeffers will plate up very quickly and plates up long before it gets to any measurable temp. If it's moly or zddp, I couldn't say but eitherway, it doesn't ever get to 300degs before reacting to this condition.

satterfi · Dec 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Let me point out that in the use of the timken machine, it does not take 300degs of temp for moly to start plating. I can put any of schaeffers moly fluid in the machine and just the slightest bit of friction will start the plating action of moly and immediatly quite down the bearing. I'm not sure just what the higher temps refer to in the above posts but in the soluble moly used by schaeffers, this little bit of heat activates the moly very quickly. Let me rephrase my comment and say that the barrier additive properties of the schaeffers will plate up very quickly and plates up long before it gets to any measurable temp. If it's moly or zddp, I couldn't say but eitherway, it doesn't ever get to 300degs before reacting to this condition.

There might be some localized heating on a microscopic level that reaches 300 degrees long before you can measure a temp rise.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Dec 14, 2002

You may have a point, but I'm not sure I buy that, either way, it doesn't allow the oil to get no where near that temp before plating up.

Dick in Falls Church · Dec 14, 2002

>>>>I bet you the proprietary Mobil 1 racing oils used in major races have it too.

Would you be suggesting that racers don't use "off-the shelf" Mobil 1???

pedaltothemetal · Dec 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by **** in Falls Church:
>>>>I bet you the proprietary Mobil 1 racing oils used in major races have it too.

Would you be suggesting that racers don't use "off-the shelf" Mobil 1???

I'm sure of it. Where would you get Mobil 2w oil used in qualifying? I do see the correlation between moly and racing. I think at very high like 10000rpm, this moly can save an engine.
For the street cars, most oil companies don't see any need for it. All this data is before your eyes, and you just put 2 and 2 together.

Bror Jace · Dec 15, 2002

pedal2metal, you mean to tell me that Ron Dennis of Team Maclaren doesn't stand in line at the European equivalent to Walmart or Target first thing on Sunday mornings before each race?

Dadgummit, I'm positively shocked!!

I love it when I run into people who actually believe that the Mobil 1 oil (or Castrol, etc ...) that's in the Formula 1 or other extreme performance cars is the same formula Joe Shmoe can buy off the shelves at discount stores worldwide.

I know that Penske claims they run off-the-shelf Mobil 1 15W50 in their IRL cars. I suppose I can believe that since the engines are boost limited, have something like a 15 qt sump capacity and race only 500 miles. Still, he'd be better off running something formulated specifically for short term, high-RPM use. But then Mobil pays him a pretty penny so they can make that claim. I'm sure he uses the money to make his guys faster in other ways.

Read the back of a bottle of mobil 1 15W50 and it says "suitable for amateur racing."

So then, Penske is nuthin' but an amateur?

OK, works for me.

--- Bror Jace

Moly in Engine Oils

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