BND Quantum Blue vs Mobile 1 EP - 2007 Charger 5.7

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Two year long experiment...
on 2007 Charger Daytona 5.7L with nearly identical usage. Oil changed in the late fall, driven intermittently for a month and then sat for three months then driven on and off through spring, summer, and fall.
Code:




Year 2013 2014



Analysis ALS Blackstone



Oil BND QB Mobile 1 EP

7.5w22 5w20

Miles in Use 10,281 9,432

Oil added 1 qt 1 qt

Filter BND Napa Gold



Iron 29 28

Chromium
Lead
Copper 70 57

Tin
Aluminum 4 3
 
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And I can't be fair without posting the reply from the owner of BND Oil.

Ok,

So what is your point?

First it is a 7.5w23 not 22.5 and 849 more miles on QB.

Second, no chromium on QB and 1 on M1 so more ring wear on M1

Third, no lead on QB and 1 on M1 so more bearing wear on M1

Fourth more copper oxide taken out of the cooler than M1 which means the cooler will be MORE EFFICIENT at transferring heat!

Fifth, we got more aluminum due to the cleaning of the engine from before QB got there. You got less due to our additives in QB

Sixth, you got the advantage of using the anti-wear compounds still in the QB all over the engine that helped the M1 post better numbers so no surprise here either and yet they still had more wear! A real controlled test would be two separate engines with the same mileage on them doing the same thing at the same time with QB and M1 and then you would really see a difference! Piggy Backing our technology doesn't prove anything! The second or third change without us would be cogent and not before!

Continual use of the M1 will begin to show what it really does and not on the back of our technologies!

Same reason you can't do a baseline running ACES IV in your engine and then stop using it and dyno the car again. The dyno result would be skewed due to our technologies introduced into the engine previously! Like a clean blender before chocolate milk and peanuts are introduced. Once that has happened, people with chocolate and peanut allergies will still get sick unless it is completely cleaned out. You can't go the other way! QuantumBlue has unique technology that Mobil 1 nor any other oil has. Do traditional PAO FIRST and then QuantumBlue and not the other way around!

Dyno before and then after and not the other way around! Same with the oils!
 
Those numbers are the same, and wouldn't really tell you anything even if they weren't the same.

UOAs measure wear metals in specific ways. So let's take Iron for exaple, UOAs are testing the particles of oil within a certain size range. Particles of iron larger than that don't get counted. So you could test two different oils, Oil-A could have higher iron count than Oil-B. Someone could look at that and say that Oil-A didn't do as good of a job protecting the engine. However, when looking at the total system, it might be because Oil-A prevented less iron wear, but the iron wear that did occur was of a smaller particle size that fell within the range of sizes tested by a UOA. So although Oil-A has a higher iron count in a UOA, it might actually be protecting the engine better than Oil-B.

That's also why they have things like PQI Tests available on used oil.

Also, using different sampling companies could affect the numbers, as there are different ways to measure the same thing. So depending on which method was used, when their machines were calibrated, if the facility is certified, etc. could all have an affect on the numbers given. There have been UOAs done here on the same sample of oil, but sent to different labs, that have come back with different numbers even though the sample was well mixed between the two sampling bottles to help ensure uniformity.

Lastly, using different filters could potentially have a great affect on the UOA, as different filtering processes might allow more particles of certain sizes to circulate the oil and not be trapped in the filter. Thus allowing that element to be picked up as higher numbers in the UOA. This, in part, is why they offer things like used filter analysis.


I just did a quick google search, and I found this article, if you read the first two parts it'll explain better than me the difference between a UOA and a PQI Test. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/854/oil-analysis-tests

I'm sure there are even better explanations available online, but that's the first one I found.


Don't get me wrong. It's a good effort to try and compare two different oils. However, the controls put in place, and the undertaking that needs to be done to ensure everything is the same is surprisingly large. Very good try though.

If you have that much interest in oil, you should post on here more often. The site can always use more smart forum members.
 
Originally Posted By: sicko
Those numbers are the same, and wouldn't really tell you anything even if they weren't the same.

If you have that much interest in oil, you should post on here more often. The site can always use more smart forum members.


Nope, I'm not smart like some of the regulars here are
smile.gif


I do understand the risk of using different labs, and it was the one thing I struggled with. I didn't know ALS, and was actually concerned they were financially associated with BND. Long term plan was to go to Blackstone anyway. I did read posts here where people compared labs and found them to be nearly identical.

BND oil is extremely expensive, tie in their branded filter, it's ridiculous. Is it a better oil? I'm not convinced that it's not M1 with an anti wear additive. Is it a completely equivalent test, no it's not... however very similar operations over a longer period of time should help to minimize operational differences.

I agree, these minor differences tell me the oils are nearly identical and have little impact on the engine.

If one were to believe some of the claims made on "expensive" or "designer" oils, I'll have an engine that will outlast Mt. Rushmore. I only know a few people that have kept their cars for more than 5 years or 100k miles. Why spend the money if you're not going to run it for 200k miles? My Daytona, is my summer fun car, and as shown, only gets 10k per year. That engine in it's earlier years is known for dropping valves. Oil has nothing to do with the retainers coming loose, which is speculated to be caused by incorrect design interference fit and heat differential due to cylinder shut down. Never heard of one of these engines wearing out... only catastrophic failure.
 
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So for more money, BND will give you the same results as M1.
It would be nice to see the ending viscosities and measured insoluables as well and you should have these.
TBN and TAN would also be of interest.
 
Same order as above

Code:
Silicon (Si) 19 7

Sodium (Na) 12 9

Potassium (K)


Magnesium (Mg) 51 660

Calcium (Ca) 2082 1242

Barium (Ba)
Phosphorus (P) 758 656

Zinc (Zn) 918 772

Molybdenum (Mo) 79 77

Boron (B) 45 49



Water (%)
Coolant No 0

Insolubles NR .3



Viscosity 11.1 9.87



TBN NR NR

TAN NR NR
 
Yes, post the rest of the UOA. I am not sure this is much of a meaningful test as there are too many uncontrolled variables here.

I would like to see a UOA of a bunch of vehicles running BND Auto's ACES IV fuel additive. He claims 600% less bore and cylinder wear... ?

EDIT: just missed
smile.gif
 
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Oil looks thick for a 20 grade.

UOA data isnt as accurate as one wants to believe.

Try Mobil1 5w30HM.

TBN would he interesting.

I don't see any reason to use BND regardless of the marketing, advertising, brainwashing...
 
The two samples are remarkably similar, which is my point.

I haven't looked to see if I had to order TAN/TBN, much less what they are
smile.gif


600% reduced wear... 600% compared to what? LOL One of BND claims is, not one single engine failure running his products. Causation is not correlation. He also claims to supply aero industry and military... but can't talk about either due to privacy and non disclosure agreements.

He used to advertise that he was API certified... guess what, API publishes a list of who is API certified, and he was not on it. At some point, he changed to "suggesting" he met the requirements of API and was six sigma "qualified".

I accepted his mantra... right up until the time I caught him taking credit for something someone else published (unrelated to oil or even the API certification). At that point, I knew I couldn't trust any of his claims.

I still have some A4 left and put it in the tank of the Daytona when I put it up for the winter. It ran as [censored] this spring as it did last spring, and the year before. So, not sure what it's supposed to do, but it's claimed to be the ultimate storage additive in addition to the wild claims of reduced wear.
 
Brian at BND has some excellent products. Aces IV is the best fuel additive I have ever used for reducing the knock that emasculates Hemis at the strip. Absolutely by far the best.

But like many boutique manufacturers he has some freaky oil claims. Always hard to substantiate but I know owners who have used it for years at 10k mile OCI's and their cars are just fine.

He does indeed have contracts with the military, and he has pioneered some really cool technology. He's a smart guy, just has a huge chip on his shoulder...
 
He might be a little math-challenged as well, since you can't reduce a 100% whole by 600%.
 
I think you are mathematically challenged, 600% is 7 times, 100% is double.

I am not sure whether or not to trust Brian, personally, just because I have no experience with his products first hand, but that doesn't mean that they are not good.
 
The owner of BND is a joke and I wouldn't use their oil after reading his nonsense, even if they gave it to me for free. haaaaa unreal.
 
Originally Posted By: zpinch
I think you are mathematically challenged, 600% is 7 times, 100% is double.

I am not sure whether or not to trust Brian, personally, just because I have no experience with his products first hand, but that doesn't mean that they are not good.



I may be math challenged, but you still can't have a 600% reduction of a whole.
A 100% reduction would equal zero wear, so I guess a 600% reduction means that this oil actually rebuilds metal parts to their original dimentions?
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: zpinch
I think you are mathematically challenged, 600% is 7 times, 100% is double.

I am not sure whether or not to trust Brian, personally, just because I have no experience with his products first hand, but that doesn't mean that they are not good.



I may be math challenged, but you still can't have a 600% reduction of a whole.
A 100% reduction would equal zero wear, so I guess a 600% reduction means that this oil actually rebuilds metal parts to their original dimentions?


IMHO, you are correct. If you've got 7ppm of Fe, a 100% reduction would be 0ppm Fe. So a 600% reduction would be what, -42? LOL!
 
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