Mobil 15w50 in 0w20 engine.

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Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: igs
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: igs
These thin oils were initially made for hybrid engines where the gas motor would constantly start and stop never reaching full operating temperature.


No they weren't


Honda Insight

Penrite 10-Tenths Racing 0W20
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/categories/racing/racing-0w-20-100-pao-ester


lol 0W oils didn't even exist at that time.
 
I agree, the Honda Insight is the first car in the US that spec'd 0w20. I owned a 2000 honda insight up until like a month ago and have owned 3 more in the past :p
 
Originally Posted By: igs
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: igs

Honda Insight

Penrite 10-Tenths Racing 0W20
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/categories/racing/racing-0w-20-100-pao-ester

lol 0W oils didn't even exist at that time.



Just saying that some thin oils were developed for racing, not all the development lines were due to Hybrids.

As for 0W oils not being around back then, the Honda Insight first generation came out in 1999. Yet I was being offered 0W synthetic oil in Australia in the mid 90's some 3 to 5 years before that car appeared.
 
Originally Posted By: igs
lol 0W oils didn't even exist at that time.


Yes they did....



Those are J300 from my library...0W has been around for ages.
 
"Another USA driver survey. 30 worst oil-burning cars. Top offenders all use GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. It doesn't look like there is even one thin-oil car in the list."


So you are saying "thick" oils cause and contribute to engines burning oil? When did CR ever become the source for anything factual?
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Speculation based on grossly simplistic theories of oil-film thickness versus reality. USA driver survey. No autobahns or racing involved.

Toyota Prius reliability. Japanese-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: TGMO 0W-20. HTHSV = 2.6 cP

P7yQ_yv0_ljB2I2Rr8B7i8WX6kMCE55KL4suGRgae-5_80P7iFIJ7F1wKMYEhrzOK-t7sEdq1WR5HuveczQNn9CU-SzN6c2DrmxV00ABOKz9TA75PhU33SbeUm7neEfYrYMcmgT4WmfxirRzfu_ggmqyEHk-cNBCIB5AUTileF8ZCIaj_LrwzXwesAuh5ws78TmVM1KkiWfdwJKR64qgK0ockKylQClHDhh9F-ezCkspBbGTi30ymSjXV1h2GpnMZ8yMSjF7K4DvmA7hI_WetQXX31uc-ewNwI4YhWaJTT3lWA0N3_HjDbR8xvusSNW8GtSZWP8LEHCMT44zTTpwlmfE_Scm-o7CyHAaAefzFx-J3wkqa8bjOoLMxXWUM4NGFQYghWa6iR4X7N6exfq1ki-itb-ZAm6vmiF_A9r1_9GSYYUSxIaF9EGchJAKmpxrh4w6BHHwBS9xm853IVfsWFnLjbFY3tGqV2TApdU9_fhfPxA2-TJtVn6OATFDifhxS730ByYQB_lSCknw0bGcknnTe819X5RaD603QTYU2IZg9MueWCzYzP4qB1mcVfuT2s9XKyPYoPoEp2MGF5RVW--6vgU8mnO_512TmmHM_i3FWQt1fTzmAvpYCg=w1185-h1902-no


BMW 3-Series reliability. German-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. HTHSV = 3.8 cP

k1NEwrMVzISYHW3W5cOwmWVYf__dHXuH7JQc83W8idKSkr4RLjuihzHw_a4VKiLzHzeyaKwTuXS9QJqB2gZdK2Tdr_cH_GX9dnoACH28VA-39JnGdk0Nb5inVVU5ckY3yxwx73jZddyub-1edsOQunHacSQru5lovxhPbd5JtDIHgmA2jkkJTYG4wu0Qzq_Q4OnAVqAanmuJQiwlp0XLGTiXjohvttI4CjLbeU4ZOqpMEpe8wJW4Cd-cw8D8lEHVDUjLAvhw3WZ4_dc0N-rHjWAvM64oXbpNahYvbiz8XjNuwgvI0v2E0CuD5h6KTntB2DMs3u7k2OIjKcK8jh_NWyS04PWZY3UiKja7O1_smkRLxarpA8ceT3NX0yFNSD8z0MD292ETHjndUx_Rv1sbAsDFbrJyMmAQ_rYyxL8MFUqy0l3ATlcCkqz2vuudYjt6UGpytop2Hxgd0BIv2qF4hCGK1keVgSgzuiDq76xLzBP1GEchMQ987F3IJ03wU4XaUjjaZ5SzkXXNxfgHkOUa0OqEG9GvotryjwcJkpUgN7CbRW5djIpu35NZ5irMAqK7TQCGc2OfBF4ZJvC1WeizOo3MXH4V1p44XA19qLLd0w1QLwkFmKbGj-17lw=w1179-h1779-no


Another USA driver survey. 30 worst oil-burning cars. Top offenders all use GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. It doesn't look like there is even one thin-oil car in the list.

BuH01AaTfMHUB1d_jWccCCuZuEyMetInIV0dsqA1ILsjkIQkv7cSc8dtjw_c64JXXphNSOaeefVfgcgyw6Scpib3s22mUqjQIytUre7Ol8z5EHJlJ3F2QLTsm357zO2GqeDQkeBqwwTqafb6vMNZWMk4sHIwqLqzlJic2jmnqwACnPOsm2F9xOgw7p0m87fLKodi-vsrCGHEh4T-hf1s3T1d60v7A5TLCDwl2-msSsEwsXEUl72UGNdOCFixq6_IaZP0Dl8AX1_dNEyV6MT0U8N5w-aGadGRrmW3EMfJ24k075pEQa1PE9QW8_DlXyzg2LU_34oLeve3LVvOQOC_z8h5y2y4N_iUKgkh-mAxRdIg-feTp_HGLmz92_EGRDYiQ7y3YNKmxqEXb1SBX1x9D2aTbiGfGAFw5gl1jPW_aPWqMBdmJFHQUVGoiwlcdCSMpdCyA3ME9Mfgla3Xra5uBKgzMXZ0NDvyQARq9VWPA-7zjTXglNSMiWaNTCjk12oGwtCpT1WU6MqdJhJ7C4QP7XtduKwmn8YzTKb8akmuK-mYb2x31AxvaTViF1xBf2Df8yVKWL78bkx5rhytCHwv0WuCwyZc-5GqUJL9UgM15NOPyRw8iN3SKFXAUg=w1332-h1715-no



There is some serious specious reasoning going on right here.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: igs
lol 0W oils didn't even exist at that time.


Yes they did....


Those are J300 from my library...0W has been around for ages.


So which manufacturer was recommending that for their non-hybrid engine?
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Speculation based on grossly simplistic theories of oil-film thickness versus reality. USA driver survey. No autobahns or racing involved.

Toyota Prius reliability. Japanese-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: TGMO 0W-20. HTHSV = 2.6 cP

P7yQ_yv0_ljB2I2Rr8B7i8WX6kMCE55KL4suGRgae-5_80P7iFIJ7F1wKMYEhrzOK-t7sEdq1WR5HuveczQNn9CU-SzN6c2DrmxV00ABOKz9TA75PhU33SbeUm7neEfYrYMcmgT4WmfxirRzfu_ggmqyEHk-cNBCIB5AUTileF8ZCIaj_LrwzXwesAuh5ws78TmVM1KkiWfdwJKR64qgK0ockKylQClHDhh9F-ezCkspBbGTi30ymSjXV1h2GpnMZ8yMSjF7K4DvmA7hI_WetQXX31uc-ewNwI4YhWaJTT3lWA0N3_HjDbR8xvusSNW8GtSZWP8LEHCMT44zTTpwlmfE_Scm-o7CyHAaAefzFx-J3wkqa8bjOoLMxXWUM4NGFQYghWa6iR4X7N6exfq1ki-itb-ZAm6vmiF_A9r1_9GSYYUSxIaF9EGchJAKmpxrh4w6BHHwBS9xm853IVfsWFnLjbFY3tGqV2TApdU9_fhfPxA2-TJtVn6OATFDifhxS730ByYQB_lSCknw0bGcknnTe819X5RaD603QTYU2IZg9MueWCzYzP4qB1mcVfuT2s9XKyPYoPoEp2MGF5RVW--6vgU8mnO_512TmmHM_i3FWQt1fTzmAvpYCg=w1185-h1902-no


BMW 3-Series reliability. German-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. HTHSV = 3.8 cP

k1NEwrMVzISYHW3W5cOwmWVYf__dHXuH7JQc83W8idKSkr4RLjuihzHw_a4VKiLzHzeyaKwTuXS9QJqB2gZdK2Tdr_cH_GX9dnoACH28VA-39JnGdk0Nb5inVVU5ckY3yxwx73jZddyub-1edsOQunHacSQru5lovxhPbd5JtDIHgmA2jkkJTYG4wu0Qzq_Q4OnAVqAanmuJQiwlp0XLGTiXjohvttI4CjLbeU4ZOqpMEpe8wJW4Cd-cw8D8lEHVDUjLAvhw3WZ4_dc0N-rHjWAvM64oXbpNahYvbiz8XjNuwgvI0v2E0CuD5h6KTntB2DMs3u7k2OIjKcK8jh_NWyS04PWZY3UiKja7O1_smkRLxarpA8ceT3NX0yFNSD8z0MD292ETHjndUx_Rv1sbAsDFbrJyMmAQ_rYyxL8MFUqy0l3ATlcCkqz2vuudYjt6UGpytop2Hxgd0BIv2qF4hCGK1keVgSgzuiDq76xLzBP1GEchMQ987F3IJ03wU4XaUjjaZ5SzkXXNxfgHkOUa0OqEG9GvotryjwcJkpUgN7CbRW5djIpu35NZ5irMAqK7TQCGc2OfBF4ZJvC1WeizOo3MXH4V1p44XA19qLLd0w1QLwkFmKbGj-17lw=w1179-h1779-no


Another USA driver survey. 30 worst oil-burning cars. Top offenders all use GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. It doesn't look like there is even one thin-oil car in the list.

BuH01AaTfMHUB1d_jWccCCuZuEyMetInIV0dsqA1ILsjkIQkv7cSc8dtjw_c64JXXphNSOaeefVfgcgyw6Scpib3s22mUqjQIytUre7Ol8z5EHJlJ3F2QLTsm357zO2GqeDQkeBqwwTqafb6vMNZWMk4sHIwqLqzlJic2jmnqwACnPOsm2F9xOgw7p0m87fLKodi-vsrCGHEh4T-hf1s3T1d60v7A5TLCDwl2-msSsEwsXEUl72UGNdOCFixq6_IaZP0Dl8AX1_dNEyV6MT0U8N5w-aGadGRrmW3EMfJ24k075pEQa1PE9QW8_DlXyzg2LU_34oLeve3LVvOQOC_z8h5y2y4N_iUKgkh-mAxRdIg-feTp_HGLmz92_EGRDYiQ7y3YNKmxqEXb1SBX1x9D2aTbiGfGAFw5gl1jPW_aPWqMBdmJFHQUVGoiwlcdCSMpdCyA3ME9Mfgla3Xra5uBKgzMXZ0NDvyQARq9VWPA-7zjTXglNSMiWaNTCjk12oGwtCpT1WU6MqdJhJ7C4QP7XtduKwmn8YzTKb8akmuK-mYb2x31AxvaTViF1xBf2Df8yVKWL78bkx5rhytCHwv0WuCwyZc-5GqUJL9UgM15NOPyRw8iN3SKFXAUg=w1332-h1715-no


There is some serious specious reasoning going on right here.

On the contrary it's as clear and to the point as it could be actually.

(1) There is no indication that 0W-20 performs less than stellar in an engine it's recommended for.
(2) There is no indication that CAFE is destroying the poor USA drivers' engines, to say the least.
(3) Well-designed Japanese engines will always run just fine with 0W-20 but inferiorly designed German engines will frequently break down and burn oil despite recommending and using SAE 40, 50, and 60 oil.

It's really the engine design, not the oil, that matters.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

On the contrary it's as clear and to the point as it could be actually.

(1) There is no indication that 0W-20 performs less than stellar in an engine it's recommended for.


1. Other than manufacturers running away from 0w-20 and 5w-20 recommendations to thicker oils for very mysterious reasons.

2. The information you posted is not even nearly enough to bear that statement. You posted 2 vehicles. 2 vehicles. That's it.

Quote:
(2) There is no indication that CAFE is destroying the poor USA drivers' engines, to say the least.


You haven't posted any information that bears that statement. I'm not even saying that's it's true or false. You posted 2 cars. Unless there's only two cars for sale in the US, you are lacking data.

Quote:

(3) Well-designed Japanese engines will always run just fine with 0W-20 but inferiorly designed German engines will frequently break down and burn oil despite recommending and using SAE 40, 50, and 60 oil.

It's really the engine design, not the oil, that matters.


You haven't posted the data to support that. There's only two cars posted up.

Your oil burners list contains Japanese cars that use 0w-20.
 
I post a couple of vague sentences on engine longevity when using three viscosity grades heavier than recommended for no good reason, and then insults start rushing in.

Why would you elevate your oil temperature substantially by running three viscosity grades heavier? The worst thing that is happening on the seals, including valve-stem oil seals, is the oil temperature. Higher the temperature faster they will harden and fail.

My main analysis was regarding loss of horsepower and fuel economy, not even longevity issues. It's plain silly to sacrifice horsepower and fuel economy using an oil much thicker than recommended for no good reason (no towing, no high loads, etc.). It's probably also borderline paranoid and/or masochistic.

The only pro you can come up with is thicker oil film and perhaps a wider margin of protection against engine wear.

I can come up with so many cons:

Higher oil temperature
Excessive oil pressure
Reduced oil flow
Increased engine temperature
Too thick during warm-up
Loss of horsepower
Loss of MPG
Higher stress on the oil filter and substantially increased frequency of oil-filter bypass events
Thinner oil film in certain areas of rings
Increased time at startup for the lubrication system to pressurize
If the oil flow is too little, oil may not even reach certain areas
Due to the reduced oil flow, slower refreshment rate of antiwear additives
Due to the reduced oil flow, lifetime of contaminants before they get filtered out in the oil filter is longer
VVT, VVL, and similar hydraulic valve systems may not work probably if the oil is too thick
...

Just use the recommended viscosity and you will be fine. You can use slightly thinner or thicker if you like but there is usually no need for such things perhaps unless you have worn valve-stem oil seals and you need thicker oil to reduce oil metered through the valve guides. Or perhaps you want to tow or race uphill etc.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
You haven't posted the data to support that. There's only two cars posted up.

I posted 30 cars in the last list.

I can't post the entire CR Web site for obvious copyright reasons and wouldn't have time to do so anyway. However, all Lexus and Toyota cars are top-rated in reliability. Other Japanese cars also rate very well. Worst-rated cars are European cars. Subscribe to CR ($20 a year) and look at them if you are interested.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

BMW 3-Series reliability. German-designed engine.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It's really the engine design, not the oil, that matters.


In other words, German engines suck.
 
Originally Posted By: igs
In other words, German engines suck.

I wouldn't use that word. They are fun to drive, as they are powerful. However, they have never reached the reliability level of Japanese engines.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Speculation based on grossly simplistic theories of oil-film thickness versus reality. USA driver survey. No autobahns or racing involved.

Toyota Prius reliability. Japanese-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: TGMO 0W-20. HTHSV = 2.6 cP

P7yQ_yv0_ljB2I2Rr8B7i8WX6kMCE55KL4suGRgae-5_80P7iFIJ7F1wKMYEhrzOK-t7sEdq1WR5HuveczQNn9CU-SzN6c2DrmxV00ABOKz9TA75PhU33SbeUm7neEfYrYMcmgT4WmfxirRzfu_ggmqyEHk-cNBCIB5AUTileF8ZCIaj_LrwzXwesAuh5ws78TmVM1KkiWfdwJKR64qgK0ockKylQClHDhh9F-ezCkspBbGTi30ymSjXV1h2GpnMZ8yMSjF7K4DvmA7hI_WetQXX31uc-ewNwI4YhWaJTT3lWA0N3_HjDbR8xvusSNW8GtSZWP8LEHCMT44zTTpwlmfE_Scm-o7CyHAaAefzFx-J3wkqa8bjOoLMxXWUM4NGFQYghWa6iR4X7N6exfq1ki-itb-ZAm6vmiF_A9r1_9GSYYUSxIaF9EGchJAKmpxrh4w6BHHwBS9xm853IVfsWFnLjbFY3tGqV2TApdU9_fhfPxA2-TJtVn6OATFDifhxS730ByYQB_lSCknw0bGcknnTe819X5RaD603QTYU2IZg9MueWCzYzP4qB1mcVfuT2s9XKyPYoPoEp2MGF5RVW--6vgU8mnO_512TmmHM_i3FWQt1fTzmAvpYCg=w1185-h1902-no


BMW 3-Series reliability. German-designed engine. Oil recommended and used: GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. HTHSV = 3.8 cP

k1NEwrMVzISYHW3W5cOwmWVYf__dHXuH7JQc83W8idKSkr4RLjuihzHw_a4VKiLzHzeyaKwTuXS9QJqB2gZdK2Tdr_cH_GX9dnoACH28VA-39JnGdk0Nb5inVVU5ckY3yxwx73jZddyub-1edsOQunHacSQru5lovxhPbd5JtDIHgmA2jkkJTYG4wu0Qzq_Q4OnAVqAanmuJQiwlp0XLGTiXjohvttI4CjLbeU4ZOqpMEpe8wJW4Cd-cw8D8lEHVDUjLAvhw3WZ4_dc0N-rHjWAvM64oXbpNahYvbiz8XjNuwgvI0v2E0CuD5h6KTntB2DMs3u7k2OIjKcK8jh_NWyS04PWZY3UiKja7O1_smkRLxarpA8ceT3NX0yFNSD8z0MD292ETHjndUx_Rv1sbAsDFbrJyMmAQ_rYyxL8MFUqy0l3ATlcCkqz2vuudYjt6UGpytop2Hxgd0BIv2qF4hCGK1keVgSgzuiDq76xLzBP1GEchMQ987F3IJ03wU4XaUjjaZ5SzkXXNxfgHkOUa0OqEG9GvotryjwcJkpUgN7CbRW5djIpu35NZ5irMAqK7TQCGc2OfBF4ZJvC1WeizOo3MXH4V1p44XA19qLLd0w1QLwkFmKbGj-17lw=w1179-h1779-no


Another USA driver survey. 30 worst oil-burning cars. Top offenders all use GC 0W-40 or M1 0W-40. It doesn't look like there is even one thin-oil car in the list.

BuH01AaTfMHUB1d_jWccCCuZuEyMetInIV0dsqA1ILsjkIQkv7cSc8dtjw_c64JXXphNSOaeefVfgcgyw6Scpib3s22mUqjQIytUre7Ol8z5EHJlJ3F2QLTsm357zO2GqeDQkeBqwwTqafb6vMNZWMk4sHIwqLqzlJic2jmnqwACnPOsm2F9xOgw7p0m87fLKodi-vsrCGHEh4T-hf1s3T1d60v7A5TLCDwl2-msSsEwsXEUl72UGNdOCFixq6_IaZP0Dl8AX1_dNEyV6MT0U8N5w-aGadGRrmW3EMfJ24k075pEQa1PE9QW8_DlXyzg2LU_34oLeve3LVvOQOC_z8h5y2y4N_iUKgkh-mAxRdIg-feTp_HGLmz92_EGRDYiQ7y3YNKmxqEXb1SBX1x9D2aTbiGfGAFw5gl1jPW_aPWqMBdmJFHQUVGoiwlcdCSMpdCyA3ME9Mfgla3Xra5uBKgzMXZ0NDvyQARq9VWPA-7zjTXglNSMiWaNTCjk12oGwtCpT1WU6MqdJhJ7C4QP7XtduKwmn8YzTKb8akmuK-mYb2x31AxvaTViF1xBf2Df8yVKWL78bkx5rhytCHwv0WuCwyZc-5GqUJL9UgM15NOPyRw8iN3SKFXAUg=w1332-h1715-no



There is some serious specious reasoning going on right here.


Yup, not even sure where to begin on whatever attempt at "logic" is being peddled there
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan


Why would you elevate your oil temperature substantially by running three viscosity grades heavier? The worst thing that is happening on the seals, including valve-stem oil seals, is the oil temperature. Higher the temperature faster they will harden and fail.


Data please. How much hotter are we talking about here that justifies the use of the word "substantially" or is this just baseless posit?
 
Originally Posted By: igs
So which manufacturer was recommending that for their non-hybrid engine?


I was responding to your comment that 0W oils didn't exist at that time...they did...

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...mobil-1-history

Quote:
1996

Mobil 1™ Advanced Formula launched, with improved anti-wear performance and lower phosphorus levels to increase the life of catalytic converters.

Mobil 1™ Extreme Formula 0W-30 released, providing ultimate temperature protection ranging from 400˚F to colder than -50˚F.

Porsche turns to Mobil 1™ 0W-40 synthetic motor oil as a factory and recommended service fill for its 1996 models.


Manufacturers were specifying 0W oils before Honda BUILT a hybrid...

So what's your point again ???

(before you change it again ???)
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Excessive oil pressure
Reduced oil flow

How do we define "excessive" oil pressure? Where are we getting reduced flow?


And where in any engine does this impact lubrication...empirical evidence only, not motherhood statements about "obviously" and "feeling".
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Excessive oil pressure
Reduced oil flow

How do we define "excessive" oil pressure? Where are we getting reduced flow?

And where in any engine does this impact lubrication...empirical evidence only, not motherhood statements about "obviously" and "feeling".

Some effects of increase in viscosity:
  • Excessive heat generation resulting in oil oxidation, sludge and varnish build-up
  • Gaseous cavitation due to inadequate oil flow to pumps and bearings
  • Lubrication starvation due to inadequate oil flow
  • Oil whip in journal bearings
  • Excess energy consumption to overcome fluid friction
  • Poor air detrainment or demulsibility
  • Poor cold-start pumpability
Source: Viscosity: a lubricant's most important characteristic -- Parker Kittiwake
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: igs
So which manufacturer was recommending that for their non-hybrid engine?


I was responding to your comment that 0W oils didn't exist at that time...they did...

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...mobil-1-history

Quote:
1996

Mobil 1™ Advanced Formula launched, with improved anti-wear performance and lower phosphorus levels to increase the life of catalytic converters.

Mobil 1™ Extreme Formula 0W-30 released, providing ultimate temperature protection ranging from 400˚F to colder than -50˚F.

Porsche turns to Mobil 1™ 0W-40 synthetic motor oil as a factory and recommended service fill for its 1996 models.


Manufacturers were specifying 0W oils before Honda BUILT a hybrid...

So what's your point again ???

(before you change it again ???)


40 weight is thinner oil????
 
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