Mobil 1 EP or Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (0W-20)
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
It's a clear choice to go with M1 EP 0W-20.
Show us ANY data that conclusively proves your ludicrous statement. Nothing a UOA will show can prove this.... so show us proof that PAO is definitively, without a doubt, able to deliver the amazing results you promise. I expect we'll be waiting for this proof indefinitely....
OP, use either one. Considering that both of these oils are completely capable of protecting your engine, it's 100% your decision. Pick on price or internal comfort level, either one will serve your engine well.
It's a clear choice to go with M1 EP 0W-20.
Show us ANY data that conclusively proves your ludicrous statement. Nothing a UOA will show can prove this.... so show us proof that PAO is definitively, without a doubt, able to deliver the amazing results you promise. I expect we'll be waiting for this proof indefinitely....
OP, use either one. Considering that both of these oils are completely capable of protecting your engine, it's 100% your decision. Pick on price or internal comfort level, either one will serve your engine well.
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Show us ANY data that conclusively proves your ludicrous statement. Nothing a UOA will show can prove this.... so show us proof that PAO is definitively, without a doubt, able to deliver the amazing results you promise. I expect we'll be waiting for this proof indefinitely....
UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here.
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period. There is a reason why it's used in very few oils -- because it's a lot more expensive than GTL and Group III. Considering that the two oils mentioned here are the same price, you're simply getting more for your buck if you go with M1 EP 0W-20. You will have a cleaner engine and longer OCI. As I said, PPPP and PUPPP don't even claim extended OCI.
This said, not all M1 oils are PAO-based. The only ones that are PAO-based are M1 AFE 0W-16, M1 EP 0W-20, and M1 AP 0W-20. And these three oils are the only three PAO-based oils in US that you can buy in a store. Considering that they are sold for only $5 a quart, you're getting an incredible bargain for an oil that costs a lot more to make than competitors. Basically, it's being subsidized by the other viscosity grades and flavors that use cheaper base oils, as they don't price their oils according to the viscosity grade.
PAO costs roughly 4 times as much as Group I. POE costs about twice as PAO. Group III costs only 50% more than Group I. GTL costs about the same as Group III. So, the base oil that goes into M1 EP 0W-20 costs almost 3 times as much as the base oil that goes into PPPP 0W-20 and PUPPP 0W-20 but you're paying the same price for both. If this is not a bargain, what is it?
http://www.synlube.com/BaseOilPrices.html
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ricant_Base_Stock_Processes_and_Products (Click on the Download button for the PDF file)
Show us ANY data that conclusively proves your ludicrous statement. Nothing a UOA will show can prove this.... so show us proof that PAO is definitively, without a doubt, able to deliver the amazing results you promise. I expect we'll be waiting for this proof indefinitely....
UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here.
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period. There is a reason why it's used in very few oils -- because it's a lot more expensive than GTL and Group III. Considering that the two oils mentioned here are the same price, you're simply getting more for your buck if you go with M1 EP 0W-20. You will have a cleaner engine and longer OCI. As I said, PPPP and PUPPP don't even claim extended OCI.
This said, not all M1 oils are PAO-based. The only ones that are PAO-based are M1 AFE 0W-16, M1 EP 0W-20, and M1 AP 0W-20. And these three oils are the only three PAO-based oils in US that you can buy in a store. Considering that they are sold for only $5 a quart, you're getting an incredible bargain for an oil that costs a lot more to make than competitors. Basically, it's being subsidized by the other viscosity grades and flavors that use cheaper base oils, as they don't price their oils according to the viscosity grade.
PAO costs roughly 4 times as much as Group I. POE costs about twice as PAO. Group III costs only 50% more than Group I. GTL costs about the same as Group III. So, the base oil that goes into M1 EP 0W-20 costs almost 3 times as much as the base oil that goes into PPPP 0W-20 and PUPPP 0W-20 but you're paying the same price for both. If this is not a bargain, what is it?
http://www.synlube.com/BaseOilPrices.html
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ricant_Base_Stock_Processes_and_Products (Click on the Download button for the PDF file)
"UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here."
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by PimTac
"UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here."
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
They do, certainly. Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
"UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here."
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
They do, certainly. Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
Yep, M1 EP 0W-20's base oil is three times as expensive as PPPP/PUPPP 0W-20's base oil to be exact -- yet, you're paying the same price for both finished oils.
See the links I posted above. The PDF file in the second reference is a very good one:
Synthetic lubricant base-stock processes and products (click the Download button for the PDF file)
Margaret M. Wu (a)(b) and T. Rig Forbus (c)
(a) ExxonMobil Research & Engineering Co. Annandale, NJ 08801
(b) ExxonMobil Chemical Co. Synthetic Division, Edison , NJ 08818
(c) The Valvoline Co. of Ashland, Inc., Lexington, KY 40512
Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
Yep, M1 EP 0W-20's base oil is three times as expensive as PPPP/PUPPP 0W-20's base oil to be exact -- yet, you're paying the same price for both finished oils.
See the links I posted above. The PDF file in the second reference is a very good one:
Synthetic lubricant base-stock processes and products (click the Download button for the PDF file)
Margaret M. Wu (a)(b) and T. Rig Forbus (c)
(a) ExxonMobil Research & Engineering Co. Annandale, NJ 08801
(b) ExxonMobil Chemical Co. Synthetic Division, Edison , NJ 08818
(c) The Valvoline Co. of Ashland, Inc., Lexington, KY 40512
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
Thanks for yet again another useless post.
OK. I'll start to regurgitate marketing claims to fit into the majority of opinions...
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
Thanks for yet again another useless post.
OK. I'll start to regurgitate marketing claims to fit into the majority of opinions...
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by PimTac
"UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here."
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
They do, certainly. Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
I do understand that. In this particular case the OP has both oils at hand already. If he was asking this question before buying the oil he would be getting the usual brand favoritism answers.
Edit to add: since the OP mentions he short trips a lot, extended oci are likely not a good idea.
Originally Posted by PimTac
"UOAs depend on many things. In that sense, you don't expect Super Tech 5W-20 conventional Group II to perform worse or better than the two oils mentioned here."
Comparing apples to oranges is not a good way to make your point.
Both oils the OP mentions meet the same specs and certifications. That is what matters.
They do, certainly. Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
I do understand that. In this particular case the OP has both oils at hand already. If he was asking this question before buying the oil he would be getting the usual brand favoritism answers.
Edit to add: since the OP mentions he short trips a lot, extended oci are likely not a good idea.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
Yep, M1 EP 0W-20's base oil is three times as expensive as PPPP/PUPPP 0W-20's base oil to be exact -- yet, you're paying the same price for both finished oils.
See the links I posted above. The PDF file in the second reference is a very good one:
Synthetic lubricant base-stock processes and products (click the Download button for the PDF file)
Margaret M. Wu (a)(b) and T. Rig Forbus (c)
(a) ExxonMobil Research & Engineering Co. Annandale, NJ 08801
(b) ExxonMobil Chemical Co. Synthetic Division, Edison , NJ 08818
(c) The Valvoline Co. of Ashland, Inc., Lexington, KY 40512
Thanks for this! I've learned a lot from this forum.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Per Gokhan's point though, the M1 product, at the same price is a better deal because it is a long-drain capable product blended with more expensive (better) bases.
Yep, M1 EP 0W-20's base oil is three times as expensive as PPPP/PUPPP 0W-20's base oil to be exact -- yet, you're paying the same price for both finished oils.
See the links I posted above. The PDF file in the second reference is a very good one:
Synthetic lubricant base-stock processes and products (click the Download button for the PDF file)
Margaret M. Wu (a)(b) and T. Rig Forbus (c)
(a) ExxonMobil Research & Engineering Co. Annandale, NJ 08801
(b) ExxonMobil Chemical Co. Synthetic Division, Edison , NJ 08818
(c) The Valvoline Co. of Ashland, Inc., Lexington, KY 40512
Thanks for this! I've learned a lot from this forum.
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
LOL maybe the only meaningful difference would be price if one was on sale with a rebate like Mobil 1 currently is.
But then Pennzoil some times has rebates as weii !!
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
LOL maybe the only meaningful difference would be price if one was on sale with a rebate like Mobil 1 currently is.
But then Pennzoil some times has rebates as weii !!
Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
I'm starting to realize this more than more. Especially with a Nissan... it's not gonna last long enough for oil brand to matter
I know enough people with 350,000 miles on their vehicles using what ever oil and filters Jiffy lube uses,
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
I'm starting to realize this more than more. Especially with a Nissan... it's not gonna last long enough for oil brand to matter
I know enough people with 350,000 miles on their vehicles using what ever oil and filters Jiffy lube uses,
Both are overkill for BC weather and OCI at the mfg. recommended interval, so get whichever is cheaper.
Last edited:
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
Thanks for yet again another useless post.
OK. I'll start to regurgitate marketing claims to fit into the majority of opinions...
I just ask that if you don't have something constructive to add, don't even bother. Because saying "oil is oil" is not constructive or helpful in any way. It adds exactly zero to the discussion.
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
Thanks for yet again another useless post.
OK. I'll start to regurgitate marketing claims to fit into the majority of opinions...
I just ask that if you don't have something constructive to add, don't even bother. Because saying "oil is oil" is not constructive or helpful in any way. It adds exactly zero to the discussion.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
I'm starting to realize this more than more. Especially with a Nissan... it's not gonna last long enough for oil brand to matter
I know enough people with 350,000 miles on their vehicles using what ever oil and filters Jiffy lube uses,
As I mentioned in another thread recently, making it to 350k and still having a perfect engine, vs just barely making it there, are two different things. If someone runs some cheap oil and cheap filter and they make it to 350k, but the engine is burning oil, horsepower is down, MPG is down and the inside of the engine is gummed up, is not ideal. But running the better oil and the better filter means that engine has a better chance of not only making it to 350k but still running like new when it gets there. And with a turbo and direct injected engine I seriously doubt you could even make it to 350k if you just use any cheap oil and filter, this is where using the better quality stuff will definitely pay off. And some engines will simply stay in perfect shape no matter what you throw at it, I will give you that, but that's probably fewer and far between these days. A lot of engines made in the past 5-10 years put a lot more stress on the oil. So comparing an engine built 20 years ago that went 350k to an engine built today is not a good comparison. That's why I like to err on the side of using much higher quality stuff.
So this is why it bothers me so much when you say "oil is oil", because that's simply not true anymore. Come back here in 15 years and show me a turbo charged/direct injected engine going 350k using whatever bargain basement oil and filter combo it could find, then you can say "oil is oil".
Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by CT8
Oil is oil I doubt there is going to be any meaningful difference between the two oils .
I'm starting to realize this more than more. Especially with a Nissan... it's not gonna last long enough for oil brand to matter
I know enough people with 350,000 miles on their vehicles using what ever oil and filters Jiffy lube uses,
As I mentioned in another thread recently, making it to 350k and still having a perfect engine, vs just barely making it there, are two different things. If someone runs some cheap oil and cheap filter and they make it to 350k, but the engine is burning oil, horsepower is down, MPG is down and the inside of the engine is gummed up, is not ideal. But running the better oil and the better filter means that engine has a better chance of not only making it to 350k but still running like new when it gets there. And with a turbo and direct injected engine I seriously doubt you could even make it to 350k if you just use any cheap oil and filter, this is where using the better quality stuff will definitely pay off. And some engines will simply stay in perfect shape no matter what you throw at it, I will give you that, but that's probably fewer and far between these days. A lot of engines made in the past 5-10 years put a lot more stress on the oil. So comparing an engine built 20 years ago that went 350k to an engine built today is not a good comparison. That's why I like to err on the side of using much higher quality stuff.
So this is why it bothers me so much when you say "oil is oil", because that's simply not true anymore. Come back here in 15 years and show me a turbo charged/direct injected engine going 350k using whatever bargain basement oil and filter combo it could find, then you can say "oil is oil".
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by Gokhan
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period.
The performance of GTL is so close to that of PAO that you really can't say it's the clear choice. In fact I have heard that you can use less VII when building an oil with GTL compared to PAO.
I think M1 is the clear choice for YOU because you clearly have an unfounded hatred for Pennzoil.
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period.
The performance of GTL is so close to that of PAO that you really can't say it's the clear choice. In fact I have heard that you can use less VII when building an oil with GTL compared to PAO.
I think M1 is the clear choice for YOU because you clearly have an unfounded hatred for Pennzoil.
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With Exxon being such a huge producer and peddler of pao,why do they only use it in their 0W20 oils and use group three base stocks in everything else (this is according to what I've read here on bitog)?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Gokhan
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period.
The performance of GTL is so close to that of PAO that you really can't say it's the clear choice. In fact I have heard that you can use less VII when building an oil with GTL compared to PAO.
I think M1 is the clear choice for YOU because you clearly have an unfounded hatred for Pennzoil.
It's the cold temperature performance where there is the most difference, as GTL still has slack wax, whilst PAO doesn't. That changes the PPD dosing requirements. There's also a difference in oxidation resistance and some other properties, but they are less notable. If GTL was as robust as PAO, Mobil would be using it, like they are in many of their other products, instead of PAO. They aren't, which I think one can assume, is due to it not being suitable for whatever their performance goals are for EP and AP in this grade.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
This said, PAO is a better base oil than GTL. Period.
The performance of GTL is so close to that of PAO that you really can't say it's the clear choice. In fact I have heard that you can use less VII when building an oil with GTL compared to PAO.
I think M1 is the clear choice for YOU because you clearly have an unfounded hatred for Pennzoil.
It's the cold temperature performance where there is the most difference, as GTL still has slack wax, whilst PAO doesn't. That changes the PPD dosing requirements. There's also a difference in oxidation resistance and some other properties, but they are less notable. If GTL was as robust as PAO, Mobil would be using it, like they are in many of their other products, instead of PAO. They aren't, which I think one can assume, is due to it not being suitable for whatever their performance goals are for EP and AP in this grade.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
It's the cold temperature performance where there is the most difference, as GTL still has slack wax, whilst PAO doesn't.
Even then, that might not even matter unless we get into the very extreme cold climates. Even on a few -22C mornings this winter my Civic's engine didn't have any problems firing up easily with 5w20 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. So I don't even really have a need for 0w20 at all, let alone a PAO 0w20 if I'm doing just fine with a GTL 5w20.
It's the cold temperature performance where there is the most difference, as GTL still has slack wax, whilst PAO doesn't.
Even then, that might not even matter unless we get into the very extreme cold climates. Even on a few -22C mornings this winter my Civic's engine didn't have any problems firing up easily with 5w20 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. So I don't even really have a need for 0w20 at all, let alone a PAO 0w20 if I'm doing just fine with a GTL 5w20.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The potential issue is that if the PPD's degrade and allow the oil to lose its W rating. That being said, the odds of encountering such a temperature are rather remote. You'd likely have to be in the northern part of the province for that to ever even begin to be an issue.
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