MMO + Use Thicker Oil ?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SirTanon
I will mirror what Demarpaint has said. I added a little over 1/2 qt of MMO to my last oil change in my Sable (3.0 Duratec), along with 4.5 qt of 5w30 Valv. ML conv. Didn't have to top up, and I'm a little over 4k miles on it. I'll be changing the oil this weekend.

This is on about 95% highway driving @ 65-75MPH in Phoenix summer weather.

I will say this however, to the OP. MMO doesn't thicken your oil - it thins it, slightly. My car specs 5w20 oil, and so I used 5w30 as my oil fill. I remember reading somewhere that MMO is basically a 10 weight oil, so with my fill, I'm looking at a final weight of roughly 5.5w-28.


Glad you agree. IIRC the tech guy at Turtle wax said MMO was about a 5 grade oil. Either way I had no problems with it flashing off. If you check the UOA section you can see the impact it had on viscosity in real world use after however many miles it was in use. Using a viscosity calculator gives an approximate viscosity. The UOA shows how it held up and the viscosity at the end of the OCI, assuming the engine had no issues with fuel dilution.


Here's a UOA with 5W30 and MMO. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3457991/1/3800_S3,_cleaning_experiment_M

 

[Tom NJ]

At 2.3 cSt @ 100C, MMO will thin your oil substantially. 17% of MMO (1 quart in six) will drop a 10.5 cSt 10W-30 down to 7.93 cSt, a lower 20 wt. To maintain a 10W-30 oil you would have to use 5 qts of 15W-40 with 1 qt of MMO.

Also, MMO will dilute your additives, so starting with 15W-40 HD diesel oil (which typically has higher detergents, dispersants, and ZDDP to start with) would make more sense.

I just bought a used Chevy Colorado with 120,000 miles and I suspect the engine is a bit dirty. Today I blended a cleaning OCI mix consisting of 3 qts of 15W-40 HDDO, 2 qts 0W-30 synthetic SN/GF-5, 16 oz of MMO, and 16 oz of a polyol ester. The resulting blend is a 5W-30 with ~2200 ppm Calcium, ~830 ppm Phosphorus, and 17% polar solvents. I'll run this through the winter or about 3,000 miles.

Tom NJ

 

[MolaKule]

Does this Colorado have the 4.3L V6 V6tec?

If so, it is a good engine. I have 196,000 miles on the engine in my 1999 S-10 and use it for trips to call on customers.

When I got mine, I cleaned it with Rislone Engine Treatment since it has TMP esters.

My cousin, who in contstruction, has over 300,000 miles on his with nary a problem. Plugs, belts hoses, etc is the primary maintenance.

BTW, if you get a lot of ignition noise, check the sides of the ignition coil for a whitish/grayish coating. Replace it if you see that condition.

 

[ChrisD46]

Wow - that's quite a viscosity drop with MMO ! ... I will have to rethink my formula !
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
At 2.3 cSt @ 100C, MMO will thin your oil substantially. 17% of MMO (1 quart in six) will drop a 10.5 cSt 10W-30 down to 7.93 cSt, a lower 20 wt. To maintain a 10W-30 oil you would have to use 5 qts of 15W-40 with 1 qt of MMO.

Also, MMO will dilute your additives, so starting with 15W-40 HD diesel oil (which typically has higher detergents, dispersants, and ZDDP to start with) would make more sense.

I just bought a used Chevy Colorado with 120,000 miles and I suspect the engine is a bit dirty. Today I blended a cleaning OCI mix consisting of 3 qts of 15W-40 HDDO, 2 qts 0W-30 synthetic SN/GF-5, 16 oz of MMO, and 16 oz of a polyol ester. The resulting blend is a 5W-30 with ~2200 ppm Calcium, ~830 ppm Phosphorus, and 17% polar solvents. I'll run this through the winter or about 3,000 miles.

Tom NJ

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Does this Colorado have the 4.3L V6 V6tec?


No it has a 3.5L I5 engine. It's running pretty smooth but I don't know what has been run through it for the past 120,000 miles, so I'm running some MMO & POE through both the oil and gas. The POE is a C7 TMP with a viscosity @ 100C of 3.4 cSt, a pour point of -75F, and a flash point of 465F, so it's fairly polar and will not volatilize off.

Tom

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
Wow - that's quite a viscosity drop with MMO ! ... I will have to rethink my formula !


You may want to use just 3 or 4 qts of 15W-40 since some of the MMO will volatilize off and the viscosity will slowly rise.

Tom NJ

 

[Mystic]

A lot of guys here have used MMO to clean their engines. I think I heard one negative story where MMO had destroyed an engine and apparently in that story directions had not been followed. And way too much MMO was put into the engine. I have heard a lot of positive stories where MMO was successful in cleaning dirty engines.

I think it is a good idea to use MMO in the winter because it does thin the oil somewhat. Only about 20% to 25% of the oil should be replaced with MMO. The remaining 75% to 80% should be motor oil. And a person should check the oil level on a regular basis.

There were a few guys here who always wanted to put down MMO and say that it destroyed engines. But they never could point to where all the destroyed engines were. And while they were putting down MMO (and Kreen, another product) they were promoting their own engine cleaning product.

There have been many posts about MMO here. Anybody can do some research and find those posts.

 

[Apollo14]

The volatile hydrocarbon components that Molakule said would evaporate and therefore cause MMO to stop cleaning during the OCI do not constitute the vast majority of the products volume.

So I don't think he intended anyone to interpret that the oil level would go down during an OCI with MMO.

Rather, he was saying you would thin your oil (and it's additives). Cleaning aside, I suppose it is possible that this thinner oil is what causes people to feel their engines are more free and it may even enable some of the detergents in the oil to clean more effectively just as once upon a time adding ATF appeared to help.

This thin oil effect also I guess encourages re-use of MMO because without MMO in your oil, the engine might feel heavier even if it is spotless.

It therefore makes sense that MMO recommend an upper limit on how much to add and also it seems there are recommendations not to exceed the manufacturer oci. It appears that MMO might be using any "reserve" that is built into manufacturer specs for viscosity and oil change duration.

 

[ChrisD46]

Thanks ! I'm now thinking 1 gal. of Rotella Triple T 15W40 , 1 qrt. of 10W30 (or 10W40) and 1 qrt. of MMO for up to 3,000 miles.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
Wow - that's quite a viscosity drop with MMO ! ... I will have to rethink my formula !


You may want to use just 3 or 4 qts of 15W-40 since some of the MMO will volatilize off and the viscosity will slowly rise.

Tom NJ

 

[MolaKule]

Keep in mind that in Tom's cleaning protocol, he is not using pure MMO, but has added a TMP ester.

Quote:
And while they were putting down MMO (and Kreen, another product) they were promoting their own engine cleaning product.


But isn't that what you are doing, promoting your own pet product?

I have used MMO, in both the oil and fuel. Never saw any effect on the oil such as cleaning, but did see thinning of the oil mixture when using a 10W30; pulled it down to a marginal 30 weight.

I do think the phos, the light hydrocarbons and chlorobenzenes in MMO may help clean a fuel system.

But then, so will Chemtool, FP PLUS and a host of other fuel system cleaners. Each has a different philosophy on what and how much light hydrocarbons to put in the mix.

BTW, even when I used Rislone Engine cleaner I changed the oil as soon as I returned home, which was a bout 525 miles.

So I continue caution and not to overtreat, and I would even go to the point of recommending MMO and Kreen, etc in the engine but ONLY as a flush.

 

[demarpaint]

Why is it when I look at UOA's with the proper dosing of MMO and no fuel dilution the oil is still in grade, and the reports are very good? If it has such a thinning effect why aren't we seeing it in the UOA reports?

 

[Mystic]

It is not as if MMO was some recent snake oil product being promoted by scam artists. I consider demarpaint one of the finest posters at this website. He has been using MMO for about forty years.

MMO has been around many decades. If it was a useless product that should be known by this time. I saw my father use MMO in one or two engines decades ago. And I have used MMO also myself.

It and Kreen are not rinses. If I was going to use a rinse I would use Lubegard engine flush or Amsoil engine flush.

And MMO can be used as a fuel system cleaner as well.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If it has such a thinning effect why aren't we seeing it in the UOA reports?


I think it is because the volatiles have burned off from the MMO, and as is usually the case, the oil thickens as the oil oxidates.

I think it would be more instructive to mix the oil you're going to use + the MMO (or Kreen or whatever), show the VOA of that mix, and then get UOA results for comparison.

And of course, how much the mix thins depends on how much MMO you
add, as Tom noted earlier.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
MMO has been around many decades. If it was a useless product that should be known by this time. I saw my father use MMO in one or two engines decades ago. And I have used MMO also myself.


No one is debating that MMO has been around for a long time.

But our dad's and grandads were using SC-SE oils which were less than optimal, compared to today's oils.

 

[Apollo14]

Molakule, how are your university students progressing? Are you impressed with the millennial generation?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
If it has such a thinning effect why aren't we seeing it in the UOA reports?


I think it is because the volatiles have burned off from the MMO, and as is usually the case, the oil thickens as the oil oxidates.

I think it would be more instructive to mix the oil you're going to use + the MMO (or Kreen or whatever), show the VOA of that mix, and then get UOA results for comparison.

And of course, how much the mix thins depends on how much MMO you
add, as Tom noted earlier.



Point well taken, as I said I always preferred to use it during the winter, some guys bump a grade, and the UOA results speak for themselves. I think Tom's mix might be a bit overkill for the winter, but I have no idea what the ester he added does.

Wouldn't fuel dilution have the same thinning effect? Lets say early in the OCI you do a lot of short hopping loading the oil with fuel, then towards the end of the OCI do nice long trips, lets say 1,500 miles worth. The fuel would flash off. Wouldn't the oil remain thinner, or would it thicken up again? Reason I ask is I recall reading here that once oil went out of grade due to fuel thinning it, it would remain that way? Thanks.

 

[ChrisD46]

Demarpaint , Tom & others - good topics ! ...What I decided for one short 2500 ~ 3000 mile OCI for the Fall in my 6 qrt sump is : 1 gal. of Rotella Triple T 15W40 , 1 qrt. of Supertech High Mileage 10W40 and 1 qrt. of MMO (17% ratio - safely below 25% ratio recommended max) . After that it is back to the '95 owner's manual recommendation of 10W30 conventional (high mileage in my case) above 10 degrees F. (which is good basically year round in GA.) All said and done, my goal is to keep this mixture somewhere in the 10W30 range with MMO added .

 

[Tom NJ]

Chris, your mixture calculates to a viscosity @ 100C of 10.4, typical for a 30 wt oil. Keep in mind, however, that this viscosity will slowly rise as portions of the MMO volatilize off.

Tom NJ

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Chris, your mixture calculates to a viscosity @ 100C of 10.4, typical for a 30 wt oil. Keep in mind, however, that this viscosity will slowly rise as portions of the MMO volatilize off.

Tom NJ


Tom what exactly does the ester you added to your mix do? Additional cleaning and clings to metal better? Thanks!

 

[Tom NJ]

I added the ester for gentle cleaning over the OCI. It is a light, very polar polyol ester, but with a flash point of 465F it will not volatize away like some of the MMO. It also kicks in some lubricity and seal conditioning, but those were not my purpose.

Tom