Originally Posted By: keesue
Kinda like an ex-boxer who hears a streetcar bell and starts punching air.
^This
Kinda like an ex-boxer who hears a streetcar bell and starts punching air.
^This
MMO, the real deal.
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I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
I await a answer.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I must be a minority and old at 33. I do not understand how people believe admitting to not understanding is a weakness. I do not understand how people believe blaming every ill on your predecessor along with not accepting responsibility is not poor leadership. I also do not believe possessing any and all mentioned traits is something to boast about but again I must be an minority.
The must disturbing part of this discussion it takes a technical level of knowledge and understanding of chemistry to understand so not understanding is nothing to be ashamed of.
Lots of ego and self worth I suppose is tied up in this He's so far in that he just can't back off.
*I* didn't understand the whole "soak" into metal part. No problem admitting it either. I bought into it.(The danger of falling for slick advertising, anecdotes, testimonial hype.)
Now I know better. I know more today then I did a week ago. And I'll know more next week than I do now.
Some get annoyed because I don't buy into anecdotes and testimonials any more. Not my problem.
I must be a minority and old at 33. I do not understand how people believe admitting to not understanding is a weakness. I do not understand how people believe blaming every ill on your predecessor along with not accepting responsibility is not poor leadership. I also do not believe possessing any and all mentioned traits is something to boast about but again I must be an minority.
The must disturbing part of this discussion it takes a technical level of knowledge and understanding of chemistry to understand so not understanding is nothing to be ashamed of.
Lots of ego and self worth I suppose is tied up in this He's so far in that he just can't back off.
*I* didn't understand the whole "soak" into metal part. No problem admitting it either. I bought into it.(The danger of falling for slick advertising, anecdotes, testimonial hype.)
Now I know better. I know more today then I did a week ago. And I'll know more next week than I do now.
Some get annoyed because I don't buy into anecdotes and testimonials any more. Not my problem.
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Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
Oh, in case you forgot, this is a MMO thread. Stay on topic.
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
Oh, in case you forgot, this is a MMO thread. Stay on topic.
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Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
Why not start a Zmax thread?
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
Why not start a Zmax thread?
I find it funny that one of your very first posts on BITOG (within the first 10 or so, at least) was this:
(emphasis mine)
"I hate to say something that is so obvious, a couple people on here would not believe anything even if they saw it with their own eyes. I have not used ZMax and may not ever use it but based on what ZMax has dealt with and still come out on top, I believe the product does what it claims for the SIMPLE fact that the FTC couldn't prove it didn't. Why a few people can't see that only proves that they have lost all abilities to figure it out for themselves or to even see what is so obvious."
The fact here is, the physics of this whole argument has been discussed at length, by people with a strong understanding, and more importantly, degrees in and real-world background in the subject matter, yet you refuse to believe it, even though you are seeing it with your own eyes.
I may not be a subject matter expert in mettalurgy, tribology, or chemistry, but I went to college and learned enough about each subject to understand what I'm reading, and it's clear to me that what they are saying is based on sound physics and sound chemistry.
What am I saying? I'm saying that perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror. You're deluding yourself.
As far as the whole FTC case goes - the net result of the case as far as Z-max is concerned was a loss. They were forced to stop making numerous claims regarding their product benefits. In no way did they GAIN anything. The best they can really say about the outcome of the case was that they didn't lose ALL of their marketing claims. At best, they were in damage-control mode.
-------------
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Methinks thou dost protest too much..
(emphasis mine)
"I hate to say something that is so obvious, a couple people on here would not believe anything even if they saw it with their own eyes. I have not used ZMax and may not ever use it but based on what ZMax has dealt with and still come out on top, I believe the product does what it claims for the SIMPLE fact that the FTC couldn't prove it didn't. Why a few people can't see that only proves that they have lost all abilities to figure it out for themselves or to even see what is so obvious."
The fact here is, the physics of this whole argument has been discussed at length, by people with a strong understanding, and more importantly, degrees in and real-world background in the subject matter, yet you refuse to believe it, even though you are seeing it with your own eyes.
I may not be a subject matter expert in mettalurgy, tribology, or chemistry, but I went to college and learned enough about each subject to understand what I'm reading, and it's clear to me that what they are saying is based on sound physics and sound chemistry.
What am I saying? I'm saying that perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror. You're deluding yourself.
As far as the whole FTC case goes - the net result of the case as far as Z-max is concerned was a loss. They were forced to stop making numerous claims regarding their product benefits. In no way did they GAIN anything. The best they can really say about the outcome of the case was that they didn't lose ALL of their marketing claims. At best, they were in damage-control mode.
-------------
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Methinks thou dost protest too much..
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
Oh, in case you forgot, this is a MMO thread. Stay on topic.
So basically, that is your way of avoiding the question. I wonder why that is? Is it that you know you can't prove what you post? I suspect that is the case here.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
As far as the whole FTC case goes - the net result of the case as far as Z-max is concerned was a loss. They were forced to stop making numerous claims regarding their product benefits. In no way did they GAIN anything. The best they can really say about the outcome of the case was that they didn't lose ALL of their marketing claims. At best, they were in damage-control mode.
Yet they still claim "soaks into metal" which people here claim it doesn't do, yet they won't do anything to actually prove it.
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
Oh, in case you forgot, this is a MMO thread. Stay on topic.
So basically, that is your way of avoiding the question. I wonder why that is? Is it that you know you can't prove what you post? I suspect that is the case here.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
As far as the whole FTC case goes - the net result of the case as far as Z-max is concerned was a loss. They were forced to stop making numerous claims regarding their product benefits. In no way did they GAIN anything. The best they can really say about the outcome of the case was that they didn't lose ALL of their marketing claims. At best, they were in damage-control mode.
Yet they still claim "soaks into metal" which people here claim it doesn't do, yet they won't do anything to actually prove it.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I must be a minority and old at 33. I do not understand how people believe admitting to not understanding is a weakness. I do not understand how people believe blaming every ill on your predecessor along with not accepting responsibility is not poor leadership. I also do not believe possessing any and all mentioned traits is something to boast about but again I must be an minority.
The must disturbing part of this discussion it takes a technical level of knowledge and understanding of chemistry to understand so not understanding is nothing to be ashamed of.
Good points.
There is no shame in asking a question. I encourage my students to ask questions. This is how we learn.
And learning is a lifelong endeavor. We do R&D all the time to learn more about the subjects in which we are interested.
However, there is no profit in continually assaulting a person professionally. I really take issue when someone dismisses or disses another professional on this board.
During the semester this is what I do (educate) in addition to my independent consulting.
I chose to remain independent in my consulting as well as in my association with BITOG, I.E., I do do not get any renumeration from BITOG.
I will gladly give as much factual information as I can and have time for, short of IP or information which might be covered under an NDA.
I am also a judge for the STEM science fairs, so I promote education at every turn.
I don't recall any time I have ever been rude to anyone truly seeking to gather information on a specific topic.
I have been "direct" in correcting posts when I have seen false or incorrect technical info being disseminated and will continue to do
Of course, there will always be people who get their noses bent out of shape when corrected or when sarcasm is introduced.
Growth and maturity may help there.
I must be a minority and old at 33. I do not understand how people believe admitting to not understanding is a weakness. I do not understand how people believe blaming every ill on your predecessor along with not accepting responsibility is not poor leadership. I also do not believe possessing any and all mentioned traits is something to boast about but again I must be an minority.
The must disturbing part of this discussion it takes a technical level of knowledge and understanding of chemistry to understand so not understanding is nothing to be ashamed of.
Good points.
There is no shame in asking a question. I encourage my students to ask questions. This is how we learn.
And learning is a lifelong endeavor. We do R&D all the time to learn more about the subjects in which we are interested.
However, there is no profit in continually assaulting a person professionally. I really take issue when someone dismisses or disses another professional on this board.
During the semester this is what I do (educate) in addition to my independent consulting.
I chose to remain independent in my consulting as well as in my association with BITOG, I.E., I do do not get any renumeration from BITOG.
I will gladly give as much factual information as I can and have time for, short of IP or information which might be covered under an NDA.
I am also a judge for the STEM science fairs, so I promote education at every turn.
I don't recall any time I have ever been rude to anyone truly seeking to gather information on a specific topic.
I have been "direct" in correcting posts when I have seen false or incorrect technical info being disseminated and will continue to do
Of course, there will always be people who get their noses bent out of shape when corrected or when sarcasm is introduced.
Growth and maturity may help there.
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Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: keesue
Originally Posted By: keesue
Kinda like an ex-boxer who hears a streetcar bell and starts punching air.
^This
Well, then again, you can't tell a boxer that. He might punch you instead.
Precisely
Originally Posted By: keesue
Originally Posted By: keesue
Kinda like an ex-boxer who hears a streetcar bell and starts punching air.
^This
Well, then again, you can't tell a boxer that. He might punch you instead.
Precisely
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
^^^^^This^^^^^^^
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
^^^^^This^^^^^^^
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
^^^^^This^^^^^^^
So that is a no answer from you too. I see the deal better with every reply here. None of you can actually prove a single thing. Nothing. All you can do is post your so called facts here and not change a thing.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: rdalek
I have a question for the anti-Zmax people. I'd like a yes or no answer. Are you stating your opinion on Zmax or are you stating a fact that you can prove? Again, yes or no. I'd like to see dave1251, MoleKule and Trajan answer that question but anyone else who is anti-Zmax can answer as well.
I await a answer.
You've had the answer. It's been explained over and over. Since you have no desire to learn to understand the physics and chemistry behind the answers, the fault is yours that it goes over your head. back to the ignore list.
^^^^^This^^^^^^^
So that is a no answer from you too. I see the deal better with every reply here. None of you can actually prove a single thing. Nothing. All you can do is post your so called facts here and not change a thing.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Methinks thou dost protest too much..
Employee maybe? There is no logical reason that someone who doesn't use it would defend it so hotly. Unless your job depends on it.
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Methinks thou dost protest too much..
Employee maybe? There is no logical reason that someone who doesn't use it would defend it so hotly. Unless your job depends on it.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Stick around BITOG a while. Things may become a bit more clear.
For any additive product you would care to mention, people line up to criticize it - almost always people who have never used it and are clueless as to what it does (or is supposed to do). A favorite attack is "show us the proof that it works". Attackers know this is almost always impossible to do because companies never release technical research data on their products. That is not to suggest the product has not been tested - only that the results are proprietary. Besides, it's much easier to market a product based on anecdotes and endorsements and the like.
Zmax is a bit unique. Because of the legal flap with the FTC, there is a wealth of information available about Zmax's claims and how they were verified to the satisfaction of the FTC, and presumably the FAA much earlier. Yet, the very same people line up to criticize and attack the product also attack the test results, and the people who did the testing and the government agencies who approved the results, ad infinitum. Endless attacks. There are perfectly valid lab tests supporting Zmax's claims - they're posted in this thread or an earlier Zmax thread (that was locked because of the endless carping by the detractors). Yet, the detractors have not produced one single shred of technical evidence showing Zmax does not work as claimed - nothing, nada. Zmax is truly unique, and that is so whether it works or not.
Notice also the personal nature of the attacks against Zmax, even from someone who claims to have something to do with science:
Originally Posted By: molakule, regarding Clubber_Lang, the person who started this thread about MMO
A number of us have attempted to educate you... but I see it hasn't helped."
The Brown Univesity professor who did a small part of the Zmax testing is now a 'hack who would say anything". And on and on. For all the intense and emotional dislike of Zmax, there has not been a single report or test or shred of evidence to disprove even a single Zmax claim.
Notice also the fascination by Molekule over a single Zmax claim: "Zmax soaks into metal". This is a rather meaningless claim for consumers, whether true or not. Zmax makes many other claims (with the FTC's approval) which have some consumer impact - improves mileage, reduces wear, etc. But Molakule is determined to zero in on "soaks into metal". When Molakule dies, they will carve on his tombstone "He attempted to show Zmax did not soak into metal".
This same pattern has occurred on BITOG over and over again. Attackers divide the world into pro-additive and anti-additive people. The 'attackers' are always the same group. I would suggest a different division: there are curious people who are interested in additives and who foolishly think this was the purpose of the forum. And another group who will resort to any tactic to discredit any additive or any person or organization who disagrees with them. Join which ever side you want. The attackers are much more organized - point man, supporting chorus, etc.
Defend Zmax? That is unnecessary. Zmax defended itself quite well on its own - to the satisfaction of the FTC and FAA and the US District Court in North Carolina. Both Dura-Lube and Slick-50 were in this same predicament and both were unable to defend themselves.
Zmax is expensive - $20/pint... too rich for me. If you would care to buy some and send it to me, I'll try it. Trajan bought and used Zmax - claimed he spent a lot of money on the product. Ask him to share his results or experiences with the product.
One last comment. I also find it funny that, of your 109 posts on here, all but a handful are about Z-max. 109 posts, and all but 15 are defending Z-max? For someone who claims not to use it, you sure spend a lot of time and effort defending it.
Stick around BITOG a while. Things may become a bit more clear.
For any additive product you would care to mention, people line up to criticize it - almost always people who have never used it and are clueless as to what it does (or is supposed to do). A favorite attack is "show us the proof that it works". Attackers know this is almost always impossible to do because companies never release technical research data on their products. That is not to suggest the product has not been tested - only that the results are proprietary. Besides, it's much easier to market a product based on anecdotes and endorsements and the like.
Zmax is a bit unique. Because of the legal flap with the FTC, there is a wealth of information available about Zmax's claims and how they were verified to the satisfaction of the FTC, and presumably the FAA much earlier. Yet, the very same people line up to criticize and attack the product also attack the test results, and the people who did the testing and the government agencies who approved the results, ad infinitum. Endless attacks. There are perfectly valid lab tests supporting Zmax's claims - they're posted in this thread or an earlier Zmax thread (that was locked because of the endless carping by the detractors). Yet, the detractors have not produced one single shred of technical evidence showing Zmax does not work as claimed - nothing, nada. Zmax is truly unique, and that is so whether it works or not.
Notice also the personal nature of the attacks against Zmax, even from someone who claims to have something to do with science:
Originally Posted By: molakule, regarding Clubber_Lang, the person who started this thread about MMO
A number of us have attempted to educate you... but I see it hasn't helped."
The Brown Univesity professor who did a small part of the Zmax testing is now a 'hack who would say anything". And on and on. For all the intense and emotional dislike of Zmax, there has not been a single report or test or shred of evidence to disprove even a single Zmax claim.
Notice also the fascination by Molekule over a single Zmax claim: "Zmax soaks into metal". This is a rather meaningless claim for consumers, whether true or not. Zmax makes many other claims (with the FTC's approval) which have some consumer impact - improves mileage, reduces wear, etc. But Molakule is determined to zero in on "soaks into metal". When Molakule dies, they will carve on his tombstone "He attempted to show Zmax did not soak into metal".
This same pattern has occurred on BITOG over and over again. Attackers divide the world into pro-additive and anti-additive people. The 'attackers' are always the same group. I would suggest a different division: there are curious people who are interested in additives and who foolishly think this was the purpose of the forum. And another group who will resort to any tactic to discredit any additive or any person or organization who disagrees with them. Join which ever side you want. The attackers are much more organized - point man, supporting chorus, etc.
Defend Zmax? That is unnecessary. Zmax defended itself quite well on its own - to the satisfaction of the FTC and FAA and the US District Court in North Carolina. Both Dura-Lube and Slick-50 were in this same predicament and both were unable to defend themselves.
Zmax is expensive - $20/pint... too rich for me. If you would care to buy some and send it to me, I'll try it. Trajan bought and used Zmax - claimed he spent a lot of money on the product. Ask him to share his results or experiences with the product.
Ummm, to you who can't read. Or rather only reads what he wants and skips over the unpalatable parts.
You've asked twice about my experience with it. And have been told, twice, about said experience. Which is one more than it should of been.
Said experience will not be related a third time. We can't expect such a poor attention span to retain what it has yet to.
You need to give your record player a kick, The needle's stuck.
You've asked twice about my experience with it. And have been told, twice, about said experience. Which is one more than it should of been.
Said experience will not be related a third time. We can't expect such a poor attention span to retain what it has yet to.
You need to give your record player a kick, The needle's stuck.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Optical Input >> Integrate Signal >> Translate Signal >> Understand Signal >> Store Signal.
Some people are simply missing one or more stages of processing
Some people are simply missing one or more stages of processing
Last edited:
Maybe he needs to rub some Z-max on his eyes.. and let it soak in.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Maybe he needs to rub some Z-max on his eyes.. and let it soak in.
Or swallow a tablespoon and let it...
Maybe he needs to rub some Z-max on his eyes.. and let it soak in.
Or swallow a tablespoon and let it...
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