if you look at what we have from voas what would technically clean an engine more mmo or ultra im sure this is a debatable question but if you go by facts and numbers what would it be?
mmo or ultra?
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JHZR2
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MMO may solve things, but ultra would have the active detergents and dispersants to solve and hold the junk.
Try using Ultra and put some MMO in it, best of both worlds.
If you start with a excellent oil in an engine that has no problem you don't need anything else.
If you have a problem engine, for one reason or another, use whatever you like.
If you have a problem engine, for one reason or another, use whatever you like.
From my experience, high detergent Valvoline Maxlife cleans the best.
Great question.
It looks like the UOA that contain MMO have noticeable lower TBNs than one would expect from oil that has not been diluted; yet, the wear metals seem only slightly higher. If it was dissolving deposits, then I would expect the wear metals to be significantly higher. In fact, I have not seen a single UOA that has benefited from the addition of MMO.
With that said, I would much rather pour a quart of PU in my truck than a quart of MMO.
It looks like the UOA that contain MMO have noticeable lower TBNs than one would expect from oil that has not been diluted; yet, the wear metals seem only slightly higher. If it was dissolving deposits, then I would expect the wear metals to be significantly higher. In fact, I have not seen a single UOA that has benefited from the addition of MMO.
With that said, I would much rather pour a quart of PU in my truck than a quart of MMO.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From my experience, high detergent Valvoline Maxlife cleans the best.
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition. Adding to the ignore list
From my experience, high detergent Valvoline Maxlife cleans the best.
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition. Adding to the ignore list
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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From my experience, high detergent Valvoline Maxlife cleans the best.
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition. Adding to the ignore list
LMAO!!!!
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From my experience, high detergent Valvoline Maxlife cleans the best.
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition. Adding to the ignore list
LMAO!!!!
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition.
It did ... very good stuff.
I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition.
It did ... very good stuff.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition.
Well, believe it or not, he may be onto something. To clean out my old 300 in the F-150 before a rebuild (it was seriously sludged), I used Delvac 15w40 in the summer and MaxLife 5w30 in the winter. After a lot of short OCIs, you could eat off the oil pan.
Of course, it could have been the MaxLife, the HDEO, or just the fact that I changed oil far too often for a couple years. Personally, my view was that it was the HDEO. Don't tell Merk that I used a resource conserving grade of MaxLife, though.
Oh please do inform us with your wealth of experience please. Those 2 oils aren't even on the same playing field. Merk. I am going to assume years of testing. Millions of miles travelled. I suppose it brought your engine to like new condition.
Well, believe it or not, he may be onto something. To clean out my old 300 in the F-150 before a rebuild (it was seriously sludged), I used Delvac 15w40 in the summer and MaxLife 5w30 in the winter. After a lot of short OCIs, you could eat off the oil pan.
Of course, it could have been the MaxLife, the HDEO, or just the fact that I changed oil far too often for a couple years. Personally, my view was that it was the HDEO. Don't tell Merk that I used a resource conserving grade of MaxLife, though.
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Great question.
It looks like the UOA that contain MMO have noticeable lower TBNs than one would expect from oil that has not been diluted; yet, the wear metals seem only slightly higher. If it was dissolving deposits, then I would expect the wear metals to be significantly higher. In fact, I have not seen a single UOA that has benefited from the addition of MMO.
With that said, I would much rather pour a quart of PU in my truck than a quart of MMO.
That's funny the UOA reports I've seen with the addition of MMO were quite good. True TBN took a hit but anyone who is trying to clean an engine doesn't want to run an extended drain anyway. MMO plus oil cleans better than oil alone, driving and working on engines since the 1970's taught me that. No need to waste money on a good synthetic when trying to clean an engine though, a cheap synthetic or a dino oil will work just fine with some MMO. Some of us throw some MMO in at the end of an oci once in a while to clean up or keep things clean, doing that to a good synthetic oil would be fine then.
Great question.
It looks like the UOA that contain MMO have noticeable lower TBNs than one would expect from oil that has not been diluted; yet, the wear metals seem only slightly higher. If it was dissolving deposits, then I would expect the wear metals to be significantly higher. In fact, I have not seen a single UOA that has benefited from the addition of MMO.
With that said, I would much rather pour a quart of PU in my truck than a quart of MMO.
That's funny the UOA reports I've seen with the addition of MMO were quite good. True TBN took a hit but anyone who is trying to clean an engine doesn't want to run an extended drain anyway. MMO plus oil cleans better than oil alone, driving and working on engines since the 1970's taught me that. No need to waste money on a good synthetic when trying to clean an engine though, a cheap synthetic or a dino oil will work just fine with some MMO. Some of us throw some MMO in at the end of an oci once in a while to clean up or keep things clean, doing that to a good synthetic oil would be fine then.
Originally Posted By: Capa
especially when you consider that every oil company recommends that you not use oil additives.
This is true, in a clean healthy engine there is no need to add anything, OTOH if you are looking to clean something up, MMO or Kreen is very effective. Also look at it from the eyes of the oil companies. Imagine if every driver used 1 qt of their favorite oil additive in place of a qt of oil. That could cost them 10%-20% of a sale or more.........................It would sure add up, and cut into profits. I'm playing Devils advocate that's all.
especially when you consider that every oil company recommends that you not use oil additives.
This is true, in a clean healthy engine there is no need to add anything, OTOH if you are looking to clean something up, MMO or Kreen is very effective. Also look at it from the eyes of the oil companies. Imagine if every driver used 1 qt of their favorite oil additive in place of a qt of oil. That could cost them 10%-20% of a sale or more.........................It would sure add up, and cut into profits. I'm playing Devils advocate that's all.
The problem with facts and numbers here is that for every engine in every car for every set of driving circumstances, there will be differences.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The problem with facts and numbers here is that for every engine in every car for every set of driving circumstances, there will be differences.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
How did we get from MMO to additives? Of course certain additives are beneficial---that goes without saying. And, yes, every circumstance has its differences. The oil companies know what is the best balance of chemistries in their oils and they all recommend against the usage of oil additives. Most of that stuff is simply snake oil---use at your own risk.
The problem with facts and numbers here is that for every engine in every car for every set of driving circumstances, there will be differences.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
How did we get from MMO to additives? Of course certain additives are beneficial---that goes without saying. And, yes, every circumstance has its differences. The oil companies know what is the best balance of chemistries in their oils and they all recommend against the usage of oil additives. Most of that stuff is simply snake oil---use at your own risk.
Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The problem with facts and numbers here is that for every engine in every car for every set of driving circumstances, there will be differences.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
How did we get from MMO to additives? Of course certain additives are beneficial---that goes without saying. And, yes, every circumstance has its differences. The oil companies know what is the best balance of chemistries in their oils and they all recommend against the usage of oil additives. Most of that stuff is simply snake oil---use at your own risk.
MMO is an additive, the problem is it is not made by an oil company. So it's direct competition for oil compaines for up to 20% of the engine's sump capacity.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The problem with facts and numbers here is that for every engine in every car for every set of driving circumstances, there will be differences.
As to oil companies not recommending additives, Lubro Moly makes oil and additives, so does STP and others.
Additives are beneficial - they come in factory oils.
How did we get from MMO to additives? Of course certain additives are beneficial---that goes without saying. And, yes, every circumstance has its differences. The oil companies know what is the best balance of chemistries in their oils and they all recommend against the usage of oil additives. Most of that stuff is simply snake oil---use at your own risk.
MMO is an additive, the problem is it is not made by an oil company. So it's direct competition for oil compaines for up to 20% of the engine's sump capacity.
Demarpaint, Mr MMO himself, MMO certainly isn't a competitor for oil in my engine. What additive or additives did the oil formulaters leave out that it warrants the usage of MMO??? I'm going to quote Caterham on one of the possible effects of MMO::
"With MMO's KV100 of 2.64cSt the main effect as far as I can see of adding MMO to engine oil is too reduce the viscosity.
Added to a 10cSt 30wt oil at the maximum dosage of 25% would give you a very light 20wt 7.0cSt oil.
Added to a heavy 30wt oil like GC will still reduce the viscosity to that of a 20wt 8.0cSt oil.
Added to a 40wt like M1 0W-40 would still result in a 20wt 8.6cSt oil.
What I would really like to know is what the KV40 spec' is for MMO. This would provide the viscosity index which I suspect it is quite low, in the 100 area. If I'm right, not only are you reducing the operating viscosity of the oil when you add MMO but also the oil's VI. If that's the case, one would be better off adding an ultra high VI (216) oil like the Toyota 0W-20. In so doing, you'll be reducing the operating viscosity but also increasing the oil's VI, thereby reducing the start-up viscosity disproportionately.
Using the GC example, 25% Toyota 0W-20 would still leave you with a reasonable heavy 11.1cSt, 3.3cP HTHSV 0w30 oil but with the VI improved from 166 to about 178."
---Caterham
"With MMO's KV100 of 2.64cSt the main effect as far as I can see of adding MMO to engine oil is too reduce the viscosity.
Added to a 10cSt 30wt oil at the maximum dosage of 25% would give you a very light 20wt 7.0cSt oil.
Added to a heavy 30wt oil like GC will still reduce the viscosity to that of a 20wt 8.0cSt oil.
Added to a 40wt like M1 0W-40 would still result in a 20wt 8.6cSt oil.
What I would really like to know is what the KV40 spec' is for MMO. This would provide the viscosity index which I suspect it is quite low, in the 100 area. If I'm right, not only are you reducing the operating viscosity of the oil when you add MMO but also the oil's VI. If that's the case, one would be better off adding an ultra high VI (216) oil like the Toyota 0W-20. In so doing, you'll be reducing the operating viscosity but also increasing the oil's VI, thereby reducing the start-up viscosity disproportionately.
Using the GC example, 25% Toyota 0W-20 would still leave you with a reasonable heavy 11.1cSt, 3.3cP HTHSV 0w30 oil but with the VI improved from 166 to about 178."
---Caterham
A 25% mix is pretty radical, hardly the standard mixing rate. A ratio of 10-15% is much more common and ideal, it will boost cleaning and improve cold start ups.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
A 25% mix is pretty radical, hardly the standard mixing rate. A ratio of 10-15% is much more common and ideal, it will boost cleaning and improve cold start ups.
Or you could just start with thinner oil to begin with. Instead of not only thinning the oil but dilluting the add pack as well.
I don't understand the hype for this stuff. It's loved in this forum yet a product like seafoam that works roughly the same way gets snubbed.
I must admit though that if I could find it I would use it.
A 25% mix is pretty radical, hardly the standard mixing rate. A ratio of 10-15% is much more common and ideal, it will boost cleaning and improve cold start ups.
Or you could just start with thinner oil to begin with. Instead of not only thinning the oil but dilluting the add pack as well.
I don't understand the hype for this stuff. It's loved in this forum yet a product like seafoam that works roughly the same way gets snubbed.
I must admit though that if I could find it I would use it.
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