misfiring Honda Civic

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Ok so you suggest putting the second bottle in now and filling it up? The second bottle is actually the bigger one for 20 gallon tanks so it'll be a heavy duty mix for sure
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Something like 2.2x the usual
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What the heck I'll give it a shot. Save the 44K for my Saab or the bike.

jeff
 
TOTALLY COOL ON THE METER
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-I DIDN'T KNOW YOU HAD BOUGHT IT !!!
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OK , in your haynes will be a simple resistence test for your injectors - thats what I would get next .
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Do the metter first , if possible . Also do the math and count whats already in the tank for your techron concentration .
Err/approx/calculate to the big side but try not to go over 3x on the concentration .
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jeeeeffffff ,
MAYBE I missed it ... pleeeaaaseee tell me your throttle body is cleanish ?
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all three semi simultaneous
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or really injector test , TB if NOT done already , then OD
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the TECHRON then opt. quick drive .
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Do not use carburetor cleaner on the TB .IF you don't have any TB SPECIFIC spray cleaner than a less than perfect field expedient method would be to take some fuel additive on a soft lint free cloth and clear as much as you can off the TB bore and the butterfly valve (bothsides) as you can - you can do the rest latter .
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Yup, did the math, adding the big bottle and filling it up will give about a 2.2x ratio.
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Having trouble figuring out what to do with the injectors. I've found a bunch of documents telling me to do it - but none of them explain how. Where do I stick the leads? The injectors are very accessible, but I'm not sure what to do with them
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The TB was given a vigorous cleaning around 95k, and I'm conscientious about changing air filters. Are you suggesting I buy a can of spray cleaner and do that?

If things go smoothly in the morning, I should be able to do the fuel pressure and injector tests (if I can figure 'em out), double dose of Techron, and perhaps clean the TB.

jeff
 
Yes to all that
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Can't believe your manual doesn't cover that ... you sure ?
Maybe some of our other people can cover the exact details on this one but roughly you just do a simple resistence measurement of the injector ( vehicle off ) .
You just disconnect the wiring harness connector at the injector being measured and on the injecter you will see two blade ends or something like that .


Before you do that , if you don't have a mechanics stethoscope , take a long handled screwdriver ,put the tip against the injecter and listen at the handle end for normal injecter click and possible differences between them (absence of click is the killer ) . you really want to do this even if you are going to measure all four which I reccomend you do . More later as needed .
Also when you borrow your tools tomorrow see if they have a noid tester - just a nice to have since you are there .

I'm going to dissappear for a couple of hours or so (sick horse) - so I will check back then .I think you are set until tomorrow AM .
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Ok, I'll look for TB cleaner (not carb cleaner) while I'm there picking up the fuel pressure gauge. I'll save some Techron in case they don't have it. Or could I use FP3000 or Sta-bil? Got plenty of both of those.

noid tester?

I just went out and did the spray bottle spark test. Definitely an improvement from last night! NO spontaneous sparks - the clamp looked good. Must admit to touching the cables and cap
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some very tiny sparks appeared on the cables, not as many as last night. Nothing appeared on the cap.

I also did that audio check on the injectors. I used an extra clutch lever from my bike, it's a solid piece of metal. All four injectors were clicking away, I was surprised how obvious it was!

That engine-off resistance test for the injectors was the one test I found good directions for. At this site: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/ic100474.htm
That aa1car.com site has some great info. Anyway it mentions that engine off resistance test of the terminals. That should be pretty simple. But the rest of the tests are ill-defined, at least for somebody like me. "Backprobe each injector connector"? Stuff like that is typical.
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Time for bed!
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jeff
 
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Well , I took too long - missed the library .
Gary lets look at something that we seem to see or weigh differently .
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Sunday , when jeff do his road testing , although he didn't get completely maxed he did get various WOT "runs" with a hill etc and he did get to 5000rpm in 5th . So my thought is that in consideration of all the rest the most likely interpretation is that his ignition considering the " electrical load" was working good enough and that injector drible/spray patterns/"problems" or even o ring problems of a certain type were being overcome by rpm , turbulence ,mixing , etc - and thats w/o assuming the other changes that typically accompany VTEC STAGE 2 operation .
A sure comfirmation of this is when the miss is occurring worst ; ie more load but not enough compensation factors what ever they really are in here . I'm saying this in a "weighting" kind of way - most likely - not certain .
There is more to this from over here but thats the main thing .



I don't really want to WAG guess this one but if I did I'd be "leaning" towards more than one thing .

Ignition issue and or combination of issues? - top contender for #2 position - thats partially based on a quick look at the 124tsbs on this car(lots of electrical) at the NHTSA and a deep look at the ignition switch recall (which if you go far enough into Honda's paperwork there includes the "ignition command module") , and those that didn't get a recall . I'm also keeping in mind his age and mileage -which is significant in terms of this ignition system in general - lots of failures of many kinds by 150k .
Well ,I'm going far afield here but bottom line ;
at high (enough - barely ) rpm , with mediumhigh load and mediumhigh throttle position this vehicle did not crossfire or if the ignition was "skipping" it wasn't much . The occassional miss there is much more consistent with at least one weak injector that can't occasionally be overcome - thats been one of the most consistent signs of fuel pressure or fuel injector problems all makes all models .

Its not of high relevance by any means but for instance , on the 1992 Accord I'm maintaining for a familly member the first thing the factory manual wants checked for a miss accompanied by a check engine light are the injectors .
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Well, I surely defer to your apparent proprietary intimacy with the nuances between the heralded Honda and common generic diagnostics.

This was simply "central cause" (multiple misfires - not misfire for #X). It could surely be any and all of the sub-ignition components that you mention. Since the wires were disturbed shortly before the event occurrence ..and they too would/could produce this symptom ..it seemed the sensible first thing to eliminate (as I qualified it) the fundamental basics.

From my perspective ...you're on step 628 ..and kinda brushed off 1-4
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..but, by all means, carry on ..
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jeff ,
you have a natural knack to explore which is great - don't let anyone or anything take that away from you .
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That said ,would you please stop playing quite so vigorously/carelessly with your ignition - bare handed ?
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(you're married FCOL - so do it for her)
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You may have that special body resistance (trace minerals and good clean living - whatever that really means helps ..... although the right kind of beer doesn't hurt either) -or so it would seem from a distance .
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And with that said (times two) thats all useful observation from the rest of your evening's work .
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I'm going to be up and down all night so I probably won't be functioning early AM and you will .


So here are a few things that I hope will help you tomorrow AM .( I'll end up in useable form at noon at the latest ) .

1) However you do it , stay totally open minded ( previous conversation/list ) - we are a long way from definitive conclusions although you have done much to narrow things down today and previously .
Do not assume anything - including a fuel system malfunction . Just test , observe , and eliminate - don't have a point of view but don't give up your intuition either -use it sparingly or not at all but always have it ready .


2) As an example , I still think you have an ignition system performance issue but its not at all clear what that is ( although its much clearer what it is not ) and I less confidently expect that to be a #2 kinda deal possibly with a twist .
I also think in general terms this should be pursued later , and that its not necc. your main or most important problem ( This could be completely or partially wrong )
You have eliminated some and reduced odds on much and also developed information that will be very useful later in this ignition area .
Do one thing in this area if you have time and it is easy ; find out if there is a minimum resistence required here in OEM terms or "practical" terms for your spark plug wires as opposed to a maximum .( we can get into all that tomorrow if needed )



4) Now that you have a VOM/MM there are many , many things you can do and you can multiply the value of that when you combine using a VG ,VOM/MM , and whatever you have been doing to get OBD2 codes .
Also with regards to the many other posters/owners observations and others who have insight as well . Although we are in mild disagreement in an academic kind of way I would point out Gary Allan in this regard as well as a lot of early unacknowledged posters in your thread here - the onesies and twosies - its very much worth reading your thread from front to back for those kinds of things .

3)Try to systematize your work (plan your work - work your plan ) - including writing things down .
Just a thought , but now that you have a vacuum gauge , a VOM/MM , a borrowed fuel pressure gauge , and maybe some other stuff plus at least part of the day off for this I suggest (only) that you consider starting over and using your manuals troubleshooting guide if it has one .
I sense you want to learn ,and if we have failed here as a group it is that you aren't being encouraged to learn an orderly method or way of thinking which does sometimes vary from vehicle to vehicle . Then there are the principles - which are basically of a universal sort .
So having said all the above and armed with a little more experience ( B.S. term for mistakes made
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) I would do exactly the same thing !

5) So ,what I'm thinking in my own mind ( without manual) is that if nothing else I would really ,really like to see you eliminate all non ignition possibilities including a few electrical ones as well that may or may not be affecting your ignition system . ( ignition switch/grounds #1 )
More than anything however , I would like to see the fuel system in every possible aspect eliminated or at least made very less likely .
Also the ignition coil and if possible the igniter module - if its still located under the cap . ( These usually can be checked by simple VOM/MM tests ) .
BTW , make sure you disconnect the Battery when needed - I 've just about given up on you and personal electrical safety
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so this is to avoid damage to your vehicle if nothing else .
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Its a good rule of work to make sure in a positive kind of way( informationally) as opposed to assuming or guessing that the battery should be hooked up or not during a test .

Final thought when you make a change as opposed to a test do them one at a time and run the engine enough to know that things have either changed or not . In this way you will have better information for the future .
Same logic in regards to TB cleaning etc .

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But the rest of the tests are ill-defined, at least for somebody like me. "Backprobe each injector connector"?




Astro glide is recommended for this procedure.
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Astro glide is recommended for this procedure.
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This morning's discoveries:

The lady I talked to at Pep Boys last night was mistaken. They don't have a fuel pressure gauge loaner. They also don't have a timing light, which I thought might have been useful.

I checked the resistance on the injectors. All four came in at 11 ohms. The Haynes manual says there's no specification for the Civic, but gives 10-13 ohms for the Integra.

Next I checked the resistance on the ignition coil. The primary resistance was 0.7 ohms, the secondary was 15.4 k-ohms. The specs on these are 0.6 - 0.8 and 12.8 - 19.2 respectively, so I'm right in the middle there.

I loaded up the tank with the second bottle of Techron and filled it up. Put about 13 miles on it so far running errands.

I got a can of throttle body cleaner too. It said "safe for protective coatings" and didn't say anything about being a carb cleaner anywhere on it, so I think it's ok. I popped off the intake and used it per the directions. I managed to trip the CEL towards the end
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but otherwise it went smoothly.

I took the car out for another drive. It's still misfiring in the same general pattern as before, but I think it might be getting a little better. At times it runs smooth under load starting around 3,000 rpms. Also, I sat and let it idle for several minutes at the end of the drive and the idle was smooth - none of the stumbles and hiccups that were present earlier in the week. I also did some WOT runs, within reason as to not draw too much attention.
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It pulled really nicely up to redline in first and second gears. Got it up to 5,500 rpms or so in 3rd, also looked good. It seems (I think) like it can take a little more throttle at times in the problematic 2,000-3,000 rpm range. One more thing I've noticed, is that around 1,500 rpms is when you get the worst behavior. Get on the throttle too hard there and it bucks quite a bit.

Also I checked yesterday, this car was not affected by the ignition switch recall.

So that's where I am. I've conducted every test and check, to the best of my ability, suggested in the thread with a couple exceptions:
- haven't been able to do any fuel pressure checks
- haven't done anything to the IAC valve.

Did I miss anything?
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Still haven't isolated or solved the problem, but I sure have learned a lot!

jeff
 
jeff , - thats outstanding - I have a personal suspect list I want to question and you just got two of them out of the way - I think - isn't there one other number to get on the coil ?
1)Is there ( should be ) something in the manual about some simple MM tests you could do on the ignition switch AND hopefully the wiring out to the primary side of ignition ?
2)Anybody else got a fuel pressure gauge ? Any thing in the manual for testing the fuel pressure regulator ?
Yes I KNOW we need a fuel pressure gauge but there is a lomg shot kinda thing I'm wondering about here - if you can just look .
brianl703 gave a quick visual to check when he referred to pulling off the 99.99% common vacuum hose on the regulator and looking for fuel ie should be a dry system on the vacuum side .
3)( Good to know on the recall . but the @#$%^ switch goes bad anyway .)
4)I think you need a Digital/"micro"MM to test the "ecm" or the "ignition command module" but I'd look and see if there is something you can do with a "regular" one , unless yours does both - in which case you can do anything they list .

5)Any chance of doing the injecter resistence test ?
Also ,the noid tester was to make sure your injecter's power signal is "right so since you don't have a noid tester see if the manual shows you how to use your MM for this . this would be measuring across/from the FI wire connecter after it is remved from injecter - so obviously nice to do simult. with injecter resistence check .
6) I don't know this system and this maybe duplication( ignition commnd module ) but is there something in the manual about an "igniter" module and if so they should have some simple MM test(s) for it .
7) Still think the hi -dose TECHRON(FP?) thing is going to matter - but that takes time .
8)If you do the IAC , there typically is an "AUX.IAC or AIAC as well - might be easy to do same time if equiped and depending on etc .
9) MISC.
I know you would have told us but its gotta be asked .Is this engine making any extra noise or does an excessive valvetrain noise appear perhaps more from one end ? Is the valvetrain noise significantly less when the VTEC SWITCHES UP ?( I don't think/know for sure but at rest VTEC will not engage ie has to be some load etc .?
Can you call or look at your paperwork to confirm valve adjustment earlier ?
Also , what is the exact wording for valve adjustment scheduling after initial ?
10)Battery terminals good? Any obviously messed up looking or heavily corroded looking engine compartment grounds ?

At this point if I could only know one more thing it would be fuel pressure .
Why ?
Because we would then know that many things such as fuel sock , fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator (little couple of steps added super simple/fast) fuel return line were all good and if they injecter resistence test was added to that , then we are pretty much done with the fuel system except for injecter spray pattern which the TECHRON/FP is going to take care of . Just a thought .
 
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Anybody know some system or system value that changes significantly around 1500 ? (long shot but have to ask .)

jeff, just had a thought - throw the VG on again - something has changed - do the usual basic and see what happens at 1500 . If that doesn't duplicate at rest get a long enough vacuum hose , drive to recreate the "bucking" and look at the gauge .On these tests , magnitude/nature of any "vibrating needle" is real important . Accurate , detailed observation if possible .

You know what , I'd do this next .

The trouble shooting "logic" here is that sometimes with a vacuum gauge if you can get a reading at your "worst point" you can get a less ambigious result - esp with other readings etc etc .
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You know what , its GOOD FRIDAY , past noon ,I've just read everything again ..... and we now know enough about the ignition , and fuel system ......
Skip that last laundry list(for now) , its time to really pay attention to the vacuum gauge .
Remember your first reading and what the MV gauge chart said? Now I'm thinking thru all the stuff you have done to date .....(plus all your roadtests and road observations) .... bottom line ; you have reduced enough probabilities on ignition and fuel and a lot of other stuff as well .....
SO I'm going to go out on a real , real , thin limb and take a WAG .
Valve adjustment and or ( much , much less likely in play ) your timing belt jumped real small - like a tooth or two .

Its just an opinion , but we should consider all that you've done and tested , including roadtests and the vacuum guage readings .
16 valves out of adjustment the right way will mimmic burnt/damaged valve(s) . In certain situations esp if one or more other things are off just a little . So maybe it went something like this( just a possible example ) ;
The FP went to work , and in the process of doing its job correctly , removed some material that was "masking" your on the edge valve adjustment problem . Now , put just a little bit of stuff in the injecters ( 7-8 yrs old ,144k - maybe throw in an opt. "dirty enough" TB and or a sensor or two etc? , etc ? )and it fits - including the vacuum gauge readings strictly interpeted .(Problem is a whole bunch of other fits as well , but "BEST" FIT WHEN THE VG is considered ...)
BTW that little bit in the injecters is usually a temp . thing and doesn't reflect poorly on the FP . It "sounds like its gradually clearing and in my opinion is going to cont. to get better ( you have the perfect drive cycle for all of this ) .I imagine it would clear with the FP alone , but the synergistic effect with a hi-dose TECHRON slug will do it faster . However and regardless if thats correct , a current gauge reading would indicate in this scenario would indicate whether or not the valve "issue" is the main "problem" .

Now , many many other things could be off at least a lttle and contributing to the situation one way or another . They may very well be worth pursuing , but if at this point, it was mine , when all is said and done ,I'd have to nail that valve adjustment possibility before I went any further on anything else . Either that , or get different and or more VG reads .
FWIW , I would not be able to say this if you hadn't done all the things you did .
See above post , and lets look at the VG readings as they are NOW .

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D*** it - FINALLY "got" all your post so much of previous is redundant or useless .( Not stuff about vacuum gauge and things changed etc )
Is your idle now stable AND smooth ?
 
OK, I didn't see anyone address the p0132 code. O2 sensor circuit high voltage in the original post. This code normally means the the engine is way too rich and the ecm is not able to lean the mixture enough. But it could also be caused by a bad O2 sensor stuck sending a high voltage even though the mixture might not be rich. The result is a very lean mixture that can cause a missfire. Yes I've seen this more than once. This explanation actually fits the description of the problem in the first post.
Ted
 
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Ok, I just got done with the vacuum gauge. That was kinda fun! I plugged it in where the brake booster line goes in. Seemed to work ok.

I started the engine up and watched the gauge. It settled pretty quickly at 20-21 - rapidly fluctuating between the two, almost like it was vibrating. (This is a constant repetitive problem occurring exactly the same time the same way evey 720 degrees of engine rotatation . 999/1000 this is MECHANICAL in nature with a modern ignition) . More importantly , this CANNOT BE random and multiple misfire - and could only be ignition if it was the same plug same time same way The needle appeared darker at 21 - like it was spending more time there.(CAM TIMING - PROBABLY) But it was very fast. When the engine would shudder as it does occasionally,(injecter - weak spray pattern) the gauge would show a 1/4 to 1/2 inch drop.

Notice TWO "effects" moving the needle TWO WAYS .

Next I blipped the throttle per the Haynes manual. The gauge would immediately drop to zero, then bounce back up to around 25. It would then go back down to 20-21 smoothly as the rpms dropped back to idle speed. ( good - later as needed .This off ever so slightly - skip for now )

For s's and giggles I turned on the AC. This resulted in the gauge dropping down to 18-19, but with the same behavior. Same 1/2" drop accompanying the shudders. (Excellent ! Again , "off" just a little bit - later as needed.)

The Haynes manual gives a bunch of suggestions for various behaviors. One goes like this "A slight fluctuation, say one inch up and down, may mean ignition problems. Check all the usual tune-up items and, if necessary, run the engine on an ignition analyzer."

The Mityvac booklet doesn't have any descriptions that match closely. The closest is for a burned or leaking valve - "At idle, burned or (mal adjusted/incorrectly timed) leaking valves will cause the pointer on the gauge to drop to a low reading and return to normal at a regular interval. The needle will drop from 1" to 7" at regular intervals whenever the defective valve attempts to close".

Thoughts?
Most likely explanation from here ;
With ALL previous in mind , the steady 1 inch drop is indicating some sort of valve timing/adjustment issue. Could be as small as 1 valve off a little more than the rest - to they are all off unevenly(small) plus timing belt (maybe at replacement ) is advanced by a tooth - maybe - two .
IF (less likely -roadtests etc) ignition it is PRIMARY side ie between primary coil windings and ignition switch - including ground paths . The second movement is what you feel most directly - it is measuring your drivers seat miss . Occasional bad injecter "behaivor" ie spray pattern which is improving .

Now that the vehicle runs differently and better (injecter clearing /throttle body clean) a current VG will allow you to see whats changed in both of the needle movements - and go from there .
Based on your observations of the vehicle - notice you felt at time of measurement one effect at idle , yet there were two needle movements occurring - so ignore interactions to keep it simple including variables not mentioned .
These interactions will sometimes work together and sometimes work against each other which is a large part of why per your last road test it got really rough at 1500rpm under certain conditions .
Current OBD2 if easy would be also be worth a look just to see if ...
If you get to a scanner there is a function way down the menu to wipeout "learned behavior" ( my term they call it something else) . This would be a great time to "wipe it out" .







You maybe wondering somethings .... short answer is yes , there are specific engine anomolies or combinations that you will not feel from the drivers seat .... typically if something else changes enough .... you will .
Final thing , if current test showed same I would definitely adjust valves first , retest , then check cam timing and retest . Its not as likely , but its got a possibility this is mostly about valve timing and adjustment with just a smidge of injecter/ignition .

BTW , all above could explain some/many/most things about O2 sensor , CEL "schedule" .

Also , jeff don't settle for just smooth idle and acceleration unless accompanied by a good and proper VG READING .
VACUUM GAUGES NEVER LIE - which is one reason I use them .
They can be IGNORED OR MISINTERPRETED .
 
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