misfiring Honda Civic

[g20ooh]

Well , I took too long - missed the library .
Gary lets look at something that we seem to see or weigh differently .

Sunday , when jeff do his road testing , although he didn't get completely maxed he did get various WOT "runs" with a hill etc and he did get to 5000rpm in 5th . So my thought is that in consideration of all the rest the most likely interpretation is that his ignition considering the " electrical load" was working good enough and that injector drible/spray patterns/"problems" or even o ring problems of a certain type were being overcome by rpm , turbulence ,mixing , etc - and thats w/o assuming the other changes that typically accompany VTEC STAGE 2 operation .
A sure comfirmation of this is when the miss is occurring worst ; ie more load but not enough compensation factors what ever they really are in here . I'm saying this in a "weighting" kind of way - most likely - not certain .
There is more to this from over here but thats the main thing .



I don't really want to WAG guess this one but if I did I'd be "leaning" towards more than one thing .

Ignition issue and or combination of issues? - top contender for #2 position - thats partially based on a quick look at the 124tsbs on this car(lots of electrical) at the NHTSA and a deep look at the ignition switch recall (which if you go far enough into Honda's paperwork there includes the "ignition command module") , and those that didn't get a recall . I'm also keeping in mind his age and mileage -which is significant in terms of this ignition system in general - lots of failures of many kinds by 150k .
Well ,I'm going far afield here but bottom line ;
at high (enough - barely ) rpm , with mediumhigh load and mediumhigh throttle position this vehicle did not crossfire or if the ignition was "skipping" it wasn't much . The occassional miss there is much more consistent with at least one weak injector that can't occasionally be overcome - thats been one of the most consistent signs of fuel pressure or fuel injector problems all makes all models .

Its not of high relevance by any means but for instance , on the 1992 Accord I'm maintaining for a familly member the first thing the factory manual wants checked for a miss accompanied by a check engine light are the injectors .

 

[g20ooh]

QUICK AND DIRTY AND TEMP test . Remove clamp replace with tiewraps ,surgical tubing or if you have the room and skill push lightly head on with a rubber or wooden something or other .

 

[g20ooh]

Expansion and contraction along with vibration on a clamped cap alone is enough - eventually . He did go 5 days w/o problem after install although installation of wires certainly could've helped things along , depending .

 

[g20ooh]

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Jeff,
Nothing more than things that run around in my head here - like to know stuff really .
1)Valve adjustment ? If required when done ?
2) VTEC operating parameters ? I know they are usually somewhat vague .
3) Since its so quick and easy .... take a look some pitch black evening while the engine is running and warm and observe if you can see or hear any arcing vv ignition .

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So on Saturday/Sunday night were the "sparks" not visible ie can you only "see" them with the water spray ?
If thats the case you may not be all of the way out of the woods yet .In light of these recent developments plus your picture you may want to check your cap/wire connections .Its a photograph so I'm not sure , but one of your tower boots looks a little off .

You have a couple of choices on the cap .

The "best" one is to repair your hardware and then replace the cap if necessary .
If that doesn't work for you at this time then you could try insulating the cap and again , replace if neccessary .
Be aware that even if you insulate the clamp with a new cap odds are pretty good you will at some later/longer point out in time need to once again replace a cap early .


Well ,I sincerely hope this is it !


If the miss is gone I'd get the O2 sensor/other sensors next .
I'd also look at brianl703's link on that - for a O2 wiring problem that sounds identical to your much earlier (year ago ?) experience with water and your CEL light .

I just reread your post jeff .
Am I picturing this correctly ? - that after you misted things and observed the arcing you then ran your bare hands all along your high tension components while engine was running .... and you didn't feel a shock ?

Did you happen to have some really thick rubber soles on ?

I don't want to sound critical but for safeties sake you really don't want to do that - there are other ways to determine the amount of leakage .
( People under different circumstance than yours have actually died doing that kinda thing although I had a buddy who used to make bar money by shorting out ignition systems ( high tension side ) bare handed and by component removal ) .

That said , I'm surprised in more ways than one .......let us know if this doesn't cure your miss . Did you happen to notice where the arcs were originating and ending ?

 

[Mr Nice]

There is a Honda/Acura ASE Master Tech on BITOG, maybe you can PM him with your problem.

 

[greenjp]

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So on Saturday/Sunday night were the "sparks" not visible ie can you only "see" them with the water spray ?

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I actually did not check this last weekend - last night was the first time.

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The "best" one is to repair your hardware and then replace the cap if necessary .
If that doesn't work for you at this time then you could try insulating the cap and again , replace if neccessary .
Be aware that even if you insulate the clamp with a new cap odds are pretty good you will at some later/longer point out in time need to once again replace a cap early .?

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I'm gonna see if I can alleviate the symptoms by insulating the clamp and perhaps putting on a new cap. Getting those rotten bolts out of the distributor housing is well beyond my capabilities.

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I'd also look at brianl703's link on that - for a O2 wiring problem that sounds identical to your much earlier (year ago ?) experience with water and your CEL light .

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Yup, the CEL from the O2 sensor has been a minor nuisance but I should probably get it sorted out.

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Am I picturing this correctly ? - that after you misted things and observed the arcing you then ran your bare hands all along your high tension components while engine was running .... and you didn't feel a shock ?

Did you happen to have some really thick rubber soles on ?

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Yeah that's about right

New Balance trail running shoes

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That said , I'm surprised in more ways than one .......let us know if this doesn't cure your miss . Did you happen to notice where the arcs were originating and ending ?

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It wasn't like the arcs/sparks were jumping from one place to another, like shooting from the clamp to a wire or something. I could see them flickering on surfaces, including on the clamp, wires, and cap. They were small (like 1-3 mm) and not too bright, but they were there. And yes more noticeable if I touched it

Come to think of it I didn't touch the clamp, just the plastic and rubber coated parts.

jeff

 

[g20ooh]

If you want to not repair your Cap hardware

I don't agree with that but I'll support you and as always - you are the boss

( Maybe you could find out what your dealer/independent shop would charge and get it done that way ).
See , in light of its just a bad idea in general( not just electrically and "mechanically" but electomagnetically as well - internal coil - thin caps ,tsb on coil shielding , etc) your ignition system is shall we say somewhat problematic going thru 150-160K so short version why "complicate/possibly contribute to" things ?


Ok , thats the last time I'll rag like an old lady and mention it that way .

Some things to think about - its your call .
Maybe you could look for kind of a premium/HD cap ie high quality high dielectric material and lots of it coupled with a "rugged design" ( Its crude and not perfect , but thickness/ weight/higher MSRP is your friend here ) .
Whatever you look at you don't want the run of the mill lowend/midrange stuff if you can get the other or something at least a little better .
You may be able to find something attractively priced in one of the old American Co. product lines since this cap has enough volume behind it .Its worth paying more to get this .
Arbritary example , one of many ; Jacobs (Electronics) Blue Streak series .
Maybe you can find some choices at a NAPA or a GOOD independent and or speed shop .( Make them look it up )
Here is one of those 80x80 rules ie works almost as bad as 2 out of three .

You want a "heavy" American made cap or similiar .


The other big thing would be to find a way to clamp the cap w/o using metal . An excellent cheap , easy to use/buy method who be to get some big high temp HD tiewraps - which would probably allow a lot of useable flexibility in how you clamp the cap -like maybe two bands instead of one etc .



Finally , however you get there you want to make your clamping a light even force over as large an area of the cap as possible . Personally , I would do this when the motor was full hot .
You only want tight enough .
One other thing . DEPENDING on what you use as your clamp(s) will effect your best choice/installation details for your hose/insulator that no matter what you are going to use as well .
As an example , if you use a nonmagnetic/nonelectrically conducting clamp your insulator/vibration absorber material choices are wider and easier to use . In this case , all you need be concerned with is vibration absorption , clamp load distribution and providing some expansion contraction margin .


If you use a metallic hose clamp such as you currently have then you must provide at least good enough electrical insulation as well . The earlier suggestion on using the right kind of slit hose is a practical cheap solution that does this - with the right kind of hose . (I would small tiewrap the hose together in the cap area . You might get blessed by finding the right kind of hose that you can use as a continious piece behind/beneath your hose clamp all the way around .( Fuel line material/hose is a good practical choice - relatively high dielectric amongst many other things that are good to have here .
Again whatever you choose include all surfaces not just the cap .
Don't worry what it looks like , just make sure it works !
(Keep in mind somewhere down the road you will want to remove it as well) .


Personally I wouldn't use a metallic clamp no matter what but again , thats up to you . When you are young its fun to learn by doing or as some organisations say , OJT .



BTW, your vacuum gauge readings although a little limited also indicate your motor is likely to be healthy in a general sense - which is always nice to know .

( Just ignore some things you might be wondering here for a while )

Always remember in life there choices that have to be made and inevitably involve trade offs .
In the case of automobiles and problems they range from good enough to the next gas station to good enough for the rest of your likely service life .
All of us always face this other reality ;that car sitting in front of you is both the biggest POS AND the "BEST you got" all at the same time .

The most important variable in that equation is you ; the owner operator ie how you drive and service the vehicle . Regardless of everthing else that is the one thing you control and that is gonna make the biggest difference in the final outcome .

 

[greenjp]

I'm back from doing some additional work, unfortunately the problem persists

First, I checked the resistance on the plug wires - all quite nice I believe. In order, from longest wire to shortest wire, the resistances were 5,900, 5,500, 4,400, and 3,800. Well below the 25,000 maximum in the Haynes book. So those aren't the problem.

I picked up a new OEM cap and rotor from Honda. Turns out if you go to estore.honda.com, you get way lower prices than if you just walk up to the counter at the dealer. Pretty much the same price I paid for the generic brand at AAP last fall. And they've got the parts diagrams, it's quite nice.

Also picked up some tubing to cover the clamp. 3/4" x 1/2" vinyl tubing. Not exactly sure how it'll hold up to the temperature, but for the purposes of this experiment I believe it's suitable.

I slit the tubing, stuck the clamp in, and put it back on. I put it on just tight enough to keep the cap from moving with a good tug. It's not too tight and I was careful to make sure it wasn't bending anything funny or otherwise squeezing too hard. So I think it's ok.

I took it out, and after the usual minute of smooth operation while warming back up, it went back to the misfiring.

No apparent change in behavior.

I agree that something using multiple wraps/clamps that aren't metal would be best, but I haven't come across something that was indicated for high temperature. When you say HD tiewraps, are you talking about some special kind of wire tie sort of thing? I was worried that regular zip tie/wire ties wouldn't be able to handle the heat. That distributor housing gets really hot.

What I'd really like to find would be some sort of locking clamp that I could apply to the tabs where the bolts normally go. When this originally happened back in the fall I used vice grips just to get to work and back, before getting the hose clamp. Something like that would be ideal, but I haven't seen the right product.

FWIW, when I left work today the CEL was out. It seems that if I drive carefully to avoid the misfiring as much as possible it'll go away. Drove about 30 miles with a few stops while I was running errands and it never came back on. When I did my test run after the work I did get the blinking CEL, but after I backed off it stayed off.

So that's where it stands. I'm close to throwing in the towel and turning it over to the professionals. They'll probably give me a hard time

when they see the distributor cap but I can take it

Any final thoughts or desperation checks before I call it quits? However it ends, I owe a few people a couple

jeff

 

[g20ooh]

Just some odds and ends - again your call .But in looking your last couple posts and pictures over .....

I'm going to say this carefully but short

While its very likely that your cap is cracked in some way , technically your discharge pattern is consistent with other explantions some of which still include your cap ( more like leakage/metal clamp - not necc. cracked )and some that involve things like your tower boots etc .
So I looked at your pictures again ,and that leads me to ask the following ; do the cap boots( on the wires) on this set(#3) fit on the cap towers as the OEMs(#1 set - two back ) ?
Are you satisfied that you felt/heard/sensed somehow this set snapped in correctly ? I can't tell from here but there are now two that look somewhat iffy .

On set #2 you mentioned earlier that one of the wires was "falling apart" after about 6 months any description available - what end ,how , why ?

Anyway , I said short so this is really just a thought - any choice is good but I'd probably try isolating the clamp before I replaced the cap( maybe for convenience sake have a new cap standing by ) and I'd try to get those boots on there at least a little lower ( better/ straighter ???? I can't really tell for sure ) and with a certainity of a locked in correctly bottomed out wire . Might ( maybe unlikely but "worth" a try? ) save you the cost of a cap ..... or not .

Also jeff , when you were "hand testing" your ignition system were you in contact with the car somewhere somehow - ignoring things like feet or thighs etc touching plastic bumper covers ie metal - painted or not ?

 

[g20ooh]

Hey I KNOW its frustrating but for your first time out and with very little to work with my opinion only you are doing fine ! - better than most

Now we just crossed so real quick throw the VG on and see if anything is even a little bit different . If you can run upto what ever RPM IT TAKES TO get a smooth engine - if possible at rest - with gauge on .In all of this try to be accurate in your observations - esp the flucuations .( Good job today BTW )

If you are willing , fuel pressure gauge/VOM for some other SIMPLE stuff next .
jeff , are your injectors "clicking" and "clicking fairly evenly" ?

There is no shame here if you want to throw in the towel - but you are gutsey - I like that( love those vice grips THATS innovation at work - grabbing wires etc ) - so if you will than I will .You have even today moved the ball forward - because you are eliminating/reducing things !!!

 

[Mr Nice]

Are there any independant Honda shops in your area that you can pass by and talk to the mechanics ?

 

[greenjp]

LT4 - the shop I normally take the car to is an indy Honda/Acura place. They would probably diagnose the problem in no time, but where's the fun in that

If it comes to that I'll just take it in, give them the short version of the info in this thread

and see what they come up with.

Here's the story with the old wires. The #2 cylinder wire started popping out off the plug, sometimes all the way off so the cylinder wouldn't get a spark. I got sick of checking it after every drive, so I decided to replace them. When removing them, all four of them broke apart. Some or all of the portion that goes down to the plug broke off and stayed in there. I had to get 'em all out with needle nose pliers. They were a generic brand from AAP. Went with the NGK's for not a whole lot more and the apparent quality difference is dramatic.

I am pretty sure the wires are on the cap properly. I actually put them on with the cap off the car for just this reason. They're on deep and snug.

Don't recall touching anything else during last night's inspection, aside from leaning up against the bumper.

Just put the VG on. No difference in behavior. Once it warmed up it read exactly like yesterday, same values and the same little vibrating fluctuations. I tapped the throttle and it did the same thing as before. Also raised the rpms up slower, the level would vary smoothly as I raised or lowered it, would jump to 25 or so whenever going off the gas.

I just got off the phone with Pep Boys, they've got a loaner fuel pressure gauge - or at least the person I was talking to thinks that's what she had

I'm trying not to buy too many tools for this job

The Haynes manual explains how to do it - hook it in to the engine side of the fuel filter in place of the banjo bolt - I guess I won't know until I have it if what they've got will be suitable. I'm not working tomorrow so I'll head over there in the morning and try this early. Any tips?

Muchas gracias

jeff

 

[g20ooh]

jeff ,if you have a 2ND bottle of TECHRON AND IF THIS POSSIBLE dump it in at 2/3 times the recommended strenght level . Its just a fast WAG ( WORST KIND ) but I believe you MIGHT be experiencing the beginning of clearing an injector or two - or something like that .( then if possible do your WOT thing (remember load ie hill or highway its not just rpm)
I'm still digesting your last post .

 

[g20ooh]

D*** we're crossing alot here . Great idea on your last

I think you are closer than you realize to some stuff that matters .
Do you now have a VOM ?

 

[greenjp]

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jeff ,if you have a 2ND bottle of TECHRON AND IF THIS POSSIBLE dump it in at 2/3 times the recommended strenght level . Its just a fast WAG ( WORST KIND ) but I believe you MIGHT be experiencing the beginning of clearing an injector or two - or something like that .( then if possible do your WOT thing (remember load ie hill or highway its not just rpm)
I'm still digesting your last post .

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I do have a second bottle of Techron (BOGO at AAP), but I'm only halfway through the tank with the first bottle. Also, I should have a can of BG 44K coming in the mail from the radio show dude. I'll run the current tank down to 1/4 full - if the 44K is here then I'll run it, if not I'll run the second bottle of Techron at an elevated dose ratio.

jeff

 

[greenjp]

Forgot about the VOM. I don't know what that is!

jeff

 

[g20ooh]

BTW , everything you have been posting has and still is very useful from this end - we are crossing so that may not be obvious . You have no wasted info here , jeff .

 

[g20ooh]

Just volt , ohm meter . So how did you check your wires - somebody elses meter ?

 

[greenjp]

Yes I do have one of those. Used to hearing it called a multimeter. It's the second tool purchased for this job

jeff

 

[g20ooh]

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Quote:

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jeff ,if you have a 2ND bottle of TECHRON AND IF THIS POSSIBLE dump it in at 2/3 times the recommended strenght level . Its just a fast WAG ( WORST KIND ) but I believe you MIGHT be experiencing the beginning of clearing an injector or two - or something like that .( then if possible do your WOT thing (remember load ie hill or highway its not just rpm)
I'm still digesting your last post .

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I do have a second bottle of Techron (BOGO at AAP), but I'm only halfway through the tank with the first bottle. Also, I should have a can of BG 44K coming in the mail from the radio show dude. I'll run the current tank down to 1/4 full - if the 44K is here then I'll run it, if not I'll run the second bottle of Techron at an elevated dose ratio.

jeff

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You know thats fine .

Personally , I'd load it up as per previous and get some thru the system , again as per previous .
You will not hurt anything with an overdose of TECHRON as described .
In fact , it I'd get as much fuel in there with that concentration level(2-3x) of TECHRON up to a full tank .
Your call - think you might get a good result fast .