misfiring Honda Civic
- Thread starter greenjp
- Start date
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The car is fixed. The weather finally got nice for a few days and I wasn't traveling for work, so I took it in and rode the motorcycle to work for a few days.
I'm surprised, amused, puzzled, and a little embarrassed.
The problem was something obvious that came up several times in this thread. It was not something that I overlooked or ignored, to the contrary it's something I checked and thought to be ok. Here's how it went down:
Dropped the car at the shop at 2:45 yesterday afternoon. Told him what was going on, and hopped on my bicycle for the ride home. 30 minutes later I'm home, shortly after that the phone rings. It's the mechanic:
"I checked out your Civic and it looks like it needs...
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"... new SPARK PLUGS."
I said "That's it? Really?
"I think so"
So he put some new ones in and cleared the computer. I went by the shop on my way home from work, checked it out, took it for a test drive, and #@$%! if it doesn't run just fine.
When I checked the plugs, the gap was good, the tips were in nice shape, etc. No outward signs that anything was wrong with them. I believe they were Autolites. I asked the mechanic what he put in, he said they always use NGK.
Anybody got a theory on how all four spark plugs would degrade in this manner, simultaneously (random misfires on all 4 cylinders), and apparently over a very short period of time (car was fine when my wife left the house, started acting up suddenly)? I'm grasping here. Maybe those nice NGK wires were of so much lower resistance than the generics that "too much" juice was getting through to 'em, and after a few days they were semi-fried?
Sort of a ridiculous conclusion to this little saga, but thanks again everyone (especially g20oh and Gary) who provided their thoughts.
jeff
ps - the mechanic didn't give me too hard a time about my distributor cap
I'm surprised, amused, puzzled, and a little embarrassed.
The problem was something obvious that came up several times in this thread. It was not something that I overlooked or ignored, to the contrary it's something I checked and thought to be ok. Here's how it went down:
Dropped the car at the shop at 2:45 yesterday afternoon. Told him what was going on, and hopped on my bicycle for the ride home. 30 minutes later I'm home, shortly after that the phone rings. It's the mechanic:
"I checked out your Civic and it looks like it needs...
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"... new SPARK PLUGS."
I said "That's it? Really?
"I think so"
So he put some new ones in and cleared the computer. I went by the shop on my way home from work, checked it out, took it for a test drive, and #@$%! if it doesn't run just fine.
When I checked the plugs, the gap was good, the tips were in nice shape, etc. No outward signs that anything was wrong with them. I believe they were Autolites. I asked the mechanic what he put in, he said they always use NGK.
Anybody got a theory on how all four spark plugs would degrade in this manner, simultaneously (random misfires on all 4 cylinders), and apparently over a very short period of time (car was fine when my wife left the house, started acting up suddenly)? I'm grasping here. Maybe those nice NGK wires were of so much lower resistance than the generics that "too much" juice was getting through to 'em, and after a few days they were semi-fried?
Sort of a ridiculous conclusion to this little saga, but thanks again everyone (especially g20oh and Gary) who provided their thoughts.
jeff
ps - the mechanic didn't give me too hard a time about my distributor cap
Don't you just hate when that happens.....tiny clues that throw you off the obvious. Anyone here that says they haven't "been there, done that" is lying!
Good for you (fixed). I/we feel the pain. My "for sure tranny" problem this past winter turned out to be an "intermitant" faulty firing plug wire - it never threw a code.
You still have at least 230 other things to check on G20oh's list , don't you?????
Good for you (fixed). I/we feel the pain. My "for sure tranny" problem this past winter turned out to be an "intermitant" faulty firing plug wire - it never threw a code.
You still have at least 230 other things to check on G20oh's list , don't you?????
I've actually heard of a lot of Honda/Acura owners having trouble with using plugs other than the OEM NGK's. Not to say other brands won't work, but i've heard a few stories saying that they noticed bad performance using other than OEM. Glad to hear you got it fixed! Drive on!
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Well, more like he got (cough-cough) lassoed and side tracked on an action packed adventure ..that had nothing to do with the problem nor was able to disclose it. (now on to step 164 ..but what about step 4
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First I'll answer all g20ooh's questions as best I can:
Not quite. It definitely smooths out once you get to 3,500, but at WOT it stumbled a bit, and when doing this is when the CEL started blinking again and is now back on solid. Couldn't get it to 3,500 in 5th safely - too fast for the roads I was onIt definitely seemed to run smooth for the first minute of operation. It also runs ok with very light throttle positions at any rpm.
Here's the sequence of events. New cap, rotor, spark plugs, and wires installed last fall. Everything ran fine. A couple weeks ago one of the plug wires started popping loose off the plug, resulting in poor running. They were el cheapo generics and I discovered that they were falling apart. I replaced them on Tuesday with the new NGK wires. Everything was good. On Thursday, the FP3000 showed up and I put in a double dose along with filling up the tank since the car hasn't had any sort of gas additive for a few months. On Friday I drove the car about 60 miles, then gave it an oil change. Drove the car some more on Friday and Saturday. My wife took the car out for a 180 mile drive on Sunday, and called me about 50 miles in complaining of the symptoms.
All this seemed to check out. I don't have a voltmeter (need to get one of those) but visually the cap, rotor, wires, and plugs looked ok. I torqued the plugs too.
I replaced the cap and rotor last fall - in the process 2 of the bolts holding the cap to the distributor housing sheared off inside the distributor. One of those apparently common things that nobody mentions when you're planning the job! The cap is now held on by a stainless steel worm drive hose clamp - it's rock solid and has been fine for months.
It was replaced a couple of years ago, at 105k.
O2 sensors look to run $150 or so, so I agree. Not sure when the fuel filter was replaced. Probably at the 90k service. I'll put on a new one as it's probably a good time for it regardless.
The dude on the radio show I called this morning suggested the same thing - but I don't think the EX has an EGR valve! The Haynes manual indicates that only models with the D16Y5 engines have it - the EX is the D16Y8, and I couldn't find an EGR listed for the EX on any parts websites. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd love to be filled in.
I'll be the happiest guy around if a fuel filter fixes it!
I believe the cap, rotor, wires, and plugs are all ok - none of those of course preclude something like coils or the distributor itself.
jeff
Heres the detailed response (post#22) to my first post (post#19) .
Two things . Plugs "looked ok" and no mention of something other than NGK .
Short version of what I'm sure of here considering all your (jeffs) information as this thread developed ;
Plugs whatever brand they were , were not the original issue , nor were they thru most of the thread - at least up until the start of the gap in reportage or possibly a bit before - maybe around the "time of techron" .
Running them with misfiring caused by whatever definitely could have /probably messed up the plugs - worth replacing as the other "problem" or problem combination "moved on" .
(On a similar note , if the cars been driven with a misfire for an additional 20 days or so your cat. converter has been "loaded" ....)
More than likely it was "something(s)" other than secondary ignition and that/those "something(s)" is/are now different and/or are "different enough" with new plugs .
( "Correction" and "compensation" of stuff other than plugs ).
Which brings us full circle ; "probably" fuel/fuel delivery related was the "straw that broke the camels back" which then "cleared enough" (techron induced) but left the plugs behind .
There are still unexplained Vacuum Gauge readings as well as symptom progression/road tests that don't fit .
Can't think of a single type of plug malfunction where the plugs work fine cold or hot with higher load and RPM - just doesn't happen - as described.
In fact , can't think of a simultanious failure of 4 plugs the same way , the same time AND considered separately or together could give your pattern of correct fire and misfire again , as described .
One thing for sure , if I was one of our numerous Fuel Control investors , regardless of what really happened here I'd sure be glad of the direction this threads going .
And , thankfully , for the NGK guys they're off the hook too !
Phew ! Well , good thing nobodies favorite got gored !
Just those d*** Autolites that worked flawlessly for approx. 6 months and thousands of miles , survived a"wire/ installation failure" and kept working until 110 miles after the DOUBLE DOSE FP3000 was added .
BTW , jeff , what happened to the OBD2 O2 codes - and the O2 sensor itself ?
Did your "tech" say anything about that or did the plug change solve that as well ?
Also , did you save the old plugs and if so how do they look now ?
How did it run between the last time you posted and the plug change ?
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Well, more like he got (cough-cough) lassoed and side tracked on an action packed adventure ..that had nothing to do with the problem nor was able to disclose it. (now on to step 164 ..but what about step 4)
My personal favorite detour here was the "TOYOKO LIGHTS AT NIGHT" spray the water mist at the running ignition system without dry observation first , with no effect on the ignition system or running engine second , and lack of leakage confirmed by the 'hand test" third .
Did you know Gary , thats the old way to sell a unsuspecting housewife an unneeded set of spark plug wires - you know "dramatically" highlighting normal leakage - which of course was completely unnecc . if his first roadtest was considered and used properly or is that ... unknown ?
Running highload , highrpm , with large throttle settings but with no misfire , all but completely eliminates secondary ignition , a step that was completed right at the beginning .
Also observed right from the beginning , although covered again later ,running correctly cold under all the conditions described in this thread is significant for the same reason and gives the same indication although less strongly or completely of secondary ignition health .
Put together ... and then with the rest of jeffs information , replacements , observations , etc - including vacuum gauge readings ...... and of course the useful detours eliminating exhaust manifold leaks , a dirty but working IACV, etc as it happened .....
Really cool thing about vacuum gauges , they can only tell truth although they can be misobserved , or misreported , or misinterpretted .
Well , ok , there is one more . Just like good road testing , they can be ignored as well .
One thing for sure here , tests, roadtests , observations , and vacuum gauge readings as reported thru 8-11April07 are not consistent with an initial spark plug problem or a sparkplug wire failure .
BTW , as am sure you are aware , a fresh set of plugs can cover a multitude of other problems including primary ignition , grounds , and fuel air problems as well .
Wouldn't you agree Gary , that checking the old plugs for everything from part# , condition , measured gap , and esp. any deposits present would be extremely useful here ?
I'd still like to know if Honda specifies a min. resistence for wires as well .
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Well, the water test is valid if you have leakage. I discovered this with my first new vehicle. Everything I owned before it (a 1975 SBC C20) was a 60's ****ebox. I did the mombo with the starting rituals in the winter ..and had it normally be less than responsive when cold. When I encountered this during my first winter in the new engine, I didn't think anything of it. The warm performance was "normal" from my perspective. Then one day I hosed the engine off after dark. The lightening storm was rather apparent. The engine didn't misfire or stall. I replaced the wires and the cold problem never returned.
Now as much as you're back pedaling here, I doubt that you can say that ANY arching in the presence of moisture is OEM approved ..or even shade tree (or otherwise self proclaimed expert) mechanic allowed. I'll surely accept any link from an authoritative source that says otherwise.
Again, you took him way out of bounds for a fundamental problem. Now the plugs may not be the problem...but they are the cause of the symptom. So far umpteen hours of vacuum gauge distractions haven't disclosed anything and the time in numb dumb parts replacing would have yielded more productive results.
It truly appeared that you wanted it to be some obscure "niche" problem and blew right by every fundamental/elementary cause. I would have been frustrated by this ..but would have, eventually, gone over the same ground looking for my glitch in the diagnostic process. Usually it comes down to the technician's assumptions of integrity for a given component. It's happened to me dozens of times. "But the plugs are brand new!" .."but the wires are brand new!" ."but the coil has spark!"..but ..but ..but.. yet the 1st place you should look is the most likely source of the problem and you end up relying on things being as they should ..when they are not. My experienced wrench had a more high tech wrench help him with his son's newer chevy. The old coot saw a yellow spark out of the coil ..the younger tech (who has advanced training and is co-owner of his shop) blew right by it figuring that a coil would have catastrophic failure. After about $800 in parts and tons of time in pondering this ..the coil was the cause. It was all due to "assumptions".
As soon as I suggested/insisted that this pointed to a common ignition point, you did everything you could to point out that other components could cause this. I agreed ..yet you still made a beeline to every other alleged source. You didn't even explore your own alternative possibilities and appeared to, with distinction, discount anything anyone else had in offerings.
Now obviously you have some advanced experience with the Honda flavor of the breed, but not everything is rocket science and even Einstein can't reinvent the wheel.
Sorry. It's the rule of the internet. If you hang it out there, you must be prepared to have it lopped off.
Me? I can take the occasional spanking if I get too grandiose and full of myself (it's happened often enough- and one learns not to get spanked as often)
Now as much as you're back pedaling here, I doubt that you can say that ANY arching in the presence of moisture is OEM approved ..or even shade tree (or otherwise self proclaimed expert) mechanic allowed. I'll surely accept any link from an authoritative source that says otherwise.
Again, you took him way out of bounds for a fundamental problem. Now the plugs may not be the problem...but they are the cause of the symptom. So far umpteen hours of vacuum gauge distractions haven't disclosed anything and the time in numb dumb parts replacing would have yielded more productive results.
It truly appeared that you wanted it to be some obscure "niche" problem and blew right by every fundamental/elementary cause. I would have been frustrated by this ..but would have, eventually, gone over the same ground looking for my glitch in the diagnostic process. Usually it comes down to the technician's assumptions of integrity for a given component. It's happened to me dozens of times. "But the plugs are brand new!" .."but the wires are brand new!" ."but the coil has spark!"..but ..but ..but.. yet the 1st place you should look is the most likely source of the problem and you end up relying on things being as they should ..when they are not. My experienced wrench had a more high tech wrench help him with his son's newer chevy. The old coot saw a yellow spark out of the coil ..the younger tech (who has advanced training and is co-owner of his shop) blew right by it figuring that a coil would have catastrophic failure. After about $800 in parts and tons of time in pondering this ..the coil was the cause. It was all due to "assumptions".
As soon as I suggested/insisted that this pointed to a common ignition point, you did everything you could to point out that other components could cause this. I agreed ..yet you still made a beeline to every other alleged source. You didn't even explore your own alternative possibilities and appeared to, with distinction, discount anything anyone else had in offerings.
Now obviously you have some advanced experience with the Honda flavor of the breed, but not everything is rocket science and even Einstein can't reinvent the wheel.
Sorry. It's the rule of the internet. If you hang it out there, you must be prepared to have it lopped off.
Me? I can take the occasional spanking if I get too grandiose and full of myself (it's happened often enough- and one learns not to get spanked as often)
How can fresh plugs cover up a primary ignition problem or fuel/air problems?
From my 2 cycle engine experience, I can say that visual appearance of plugs (perfect) may not show internal plug problems.
What I learned from this thread is not to idolize the vacuum gauge as a cure all.
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Temporarily, they can. This occurred in my mother's Corsica. If you caught my "lightning storm" reference earlier, I assumed, due to the transparent nature of my last encounter with wires (except when cold) that a random misfire condition was not wires. I thought fuel filter ..the thing didn't even have a distributor. I replaced the plugs (that looked just fine) ..and the condition went away ..for about a day. This is a secondary ignition condition ..granted ..but the feedback goes up the line in one form or another in cause and effect.
The minor resistance of the older, but totally clean and normal looking, plugs exacerbated the wire leakage. New plugs ..less finding an easier path over the deteriorated/degraded wires. This was the second time in 20 years and few 100k of driving where wires were an issue.
So, this can be true. His plugs may be causing the symptom ..but why the plugs are getting lame in such short order may be something totally different. If this condition returns ...THEN he may need to explore every nook and cranny to find what's the root cause.
Sure ..and if I was a wrench employed to fix this, I surely would. If I had just changed the plugs not too long ago (with me doing the diagnosis), I would probably make one of those "assumptions" and not consider them until I was forced to out of frustration with not finding another cause.
Gee , Gary , I just saw this reply .
WT ......
My apologies -I hope I didn't offend you when mentioning just the biggest of your errors in this thread .
I also didn't realise the possibility ...... are you by chance heavily invested in FP ?
Using your kind of , um.... 'logic'? , I realise now its really special stuff .
(It must be , boy, talk about backing and filling and reframing reality ........)
(You related by any chance , to anyone on this forum who drives a prius ?)
Just think of the 'unfortunate' 'coincidence' here , 110 miles ,maybe 3 - 4 gallons of fuel thru the motor and all 4 plugs crapped out .
Why its almost .... unbelievable ....
Oh well , as they say timing - I mean coincidence is .... everything - in this case ...... ??? .
I mean ,we should just ignore that ..... just like you did for eight pages .... and esp. now , right ?
One thing for certain ,I'm sure glad FPs in the clear here - I was becoming a bit uncomfortable .
The only time I've seen this kind of display .... or 'performance enhancement' or 'coincidence' was when somebody added incorrectly any number of things such as JPx , biodiesel , dino diesel, kerosene etc - maybe with a dash of somethin' else ......or.......just got some 'POL contaminated' fuel with much the same .
Pretty relevant here ..... exact same kind of outcome ...... its just so easy to get a bad batch ..... of fuel ......of course ..... - at least now I'm sure you know what I mean .
Thanks for straightening out the end here - I'm sure our younger , less experienced members are now better informed, - the sharper group at least - who can see beyond the trees and ...... shrubs .
Nice job.
WT ......
My apologies -I hope I didn't offend you when mentioning just the biggest of your errors in this thread .
I also didn't realise the possibility ...... are you by chance heavily invested in FP ?
Using your kind of , um.... 'logic'? , I realise now its really special stuff .
(It must be , boy, talk about backing and filling and reframing reality ........)
(You related by any chance , to anyone on this forum who drives a prius ?)
Just think of the 'unfortunate' 'coincidence' here , 110 miles ,maybe 3 - 4 gallons of fuel thru the motor and all 4 plugs crapped out .
Why its almost .... unbelievable ....
Oh well , as they say timing - I mean coincidence is .... everything - in this case ...... ??? .
I mean ,we should just ignore that ..... just like you did for eight pages .... and esp. now , right ?
One thing for certain ,I'm sure glad FPs in the clear here - I was becoming a bit uncomfortable .
The only time I've seen this kind of display .... or 'performance enhancement' or 'coincidence' was when somebody added incorrectly any number of things such as JPx , biodiesel , dino diesel, kerosene etc - maybe with a dash of somethin' else ......or.......just got some 'POL contaminated' fuel with much the same .
Pretty relevant here ..... exact same kind of outcome ...... its just so easy to get a bad batch ..... of fuel ......of course ..... - at least now I'm sure you know what I mean .
Thanks for straightening out the end here - I'm sure our younger , less experienced members are now better informed, - the sharper group at least - who can see beyond the trees and ...... shrubs .
Nice job.
Alright everybody let's keep things sophisticated
Here's an update on the car. So the new spark plugs went in, the car drove fine. Slowly but certainly, minor symptoms began to return. Just the occasional "hiccup" on acceleration, some rough idling, particularly with the AC on. I guess I noticed the first of it maybe 1,200 miles after the plugs were replaced.
For S's and giggles I replaced the plugs again a few weeks ago. Again, back to perfect running. 800 miles later, minor symptoms are coming back.
Nothing nearly as bad as what was going on a few months ago. The car is perfectly drivable without any "special techniques" and the average person might just think it's the nature of the beast on a car with 151k miles. I of course would prefer it to be running perfectly.
The plugs I removed looked fine. I've still got them and could even post some photos if anyone would like to see them. So I don't know what is wrong with them. Just that brand new plugs seem to work ok, but somewhat rapidly experience some sort of degradation.
So I remain fairly clueless.
jeff
Here's an update on the car. So the new spark plugs went in, the car drove fine. Slowly but certainly, minor symptoms began to return. Just the occasional "hiccup" on acceleration, some rough idling, particularly with the AC on. I guess I noticed the first of it maybe 1,200 miles after the plugs were replaced.
For S's and giggles I replaced the plugs again a few weeks ago. Again, back to perfect running. 800 miles later, minor symptoms are coming back.
Nothing nearly as bad as what was going on a few months ago. The car is perfectly drivable without any "special techniques" and the average person might just think it's the nature of the beast on a car with 151k miles. I of course would prefer it to be running perfectly.
The plugs I removed looked fine. I've still got them and could even post some photos if anyone would like to see them. So I don't know what is wrong with them. Just that brand new plugs seem to work ok, but somewhat rapidly experience some sort of degradation.
So I remain fairly clueless.
jeff
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Quote:
Gee , Gary , I just saw this reply .
WT ......
My apologies -I hope I didn't offend you when mentioning just the biggest of your errors in this thread .
I also didn't realise the possibility ...... are you by chance heavily invested in FP ?
Using your kind of , um.... 'logic'? , I realise now its really special stuff .
(It must be , boy, talk about backing and filling and reframing reality ........)
(You related by any chance , to anyone on this forum who drives a prius ?)
Just think of the 'unfortunate' 'coincidence' here , 110 miles ,maybe 3 - 4 gallons of fuel thru the motor and all 4 plugs crapped out .
Why its almost .... unbelievable ....
Oh well , as they say timing - I mean coincidence is .... everything - in this case ...... ??? .
I mean ,we should just ignore that ..... just like you did for eight pages .... and esp. now , right ?
One thing for certain ,I'm sure glad FPs in the clear here - I was becoming a bit uncomfortable .
The only time I've seen this kind of display .... or 'performance enhancement' or 'coincidence' was when somebody added incorrectly any number of things such as JPx , biodiesel , dino diesel, kerosene etc - maybe with a dash of somethin' else ......or.......just got some 'POL contaminated' fuel with much the same .
Pretty relevant here ..... exact same kind of outcome ...... its just so easy to get a bad batch ..... of fuel ......of course ..... - at least now I'm sure you know what I mean .
Thanks for straightening out the end here - I'm sure our younger , less experienced members are now better informed, - the sharper group at least - who can see beyond the trees and ...... shrubs .
Nice job.
I beg your pardon?
I don't have anything to do with FP. I've never used the stuff ..don't have stock in the company. I would have liked to have tried it ..but I just can't see myself adding 4oz to 3 vehicles on three different days in the asynchronous way we use fuel around this house.
Prius
I don't quite understand what episode you're having now ...I tried to redirect you several times during the thread and you insisted on playing with a vacuum gauge. Nice tool ..but like I said going to step 392 and blowing by 1-6
..but ..whatever .. I never had any ill will toward you. You merely paid the price that I have paid, many times, when hanging it out there. There's always the risk of having it lopped off.
You appear to be well versed in a few things. You've obviously gotten some decent training somewhere ..and have put it to decent use. I don't see how one misstep is that big of a deal in a person's "big picture". The last perfect human had his challenges too.
It's an internet message board.
Enhance your calm ..and be well
Well said, Gary!
Jeff, how about eliminating that arcing effect during spray misting? I think we would all feel better having an explanation/cure for this before you get out the vaccum gauge again.
Jeff, how about eliminating that arcing effect during spray misting? I think we would all feel better having an explanation/cure for this before you get out the vaccum gauge again.
That's been done. When I replaced the old distributor cap and improved the securing method it seemed to go away.
jeff
8 pages for a spark plug... Save your time Gary. You know what they say; if you can't dazzle them with brilliance; baffle them with B.S. This has been a perfect example of that taking place. Gary, lesson #1 is do not argue with a shade-tree. Your time is more important and they never admit their mistakes. A spark plug!
WoW, ain't reading all these posts sorry...
My theory..bad contact, not spark plugs.
The wires needed to be reconnected at the plugs and cap with dielectric grease.
Had a similar problem.. engine missed last thing I did was change wires.. Did as stated above.
My theory..bad contact, not spark plugs.
The wires needed to be reconnected at the plugs and cap with dielectric grease.
Had a similar problem.. engine missed last thing I did was change wires.. Did as stated above.
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