"mini rant" regarding furnace issues/HVAC companies....

[2002 Maxima SE]

Yeah, My opinion is multi-stage, super efficient, high cost premium units are simply high markup items, salesmanship for max profits and paychecks. It's the only reason they exist. From what I read even in this forum are years later when one of those units do need a repair, sometimes the parts are no longer available OR the talent/education of the techs to repair them with the complicated programing and circuit boards just doesnt exist. In fact even as @GON has posted a $35,000 system with clueless installers for both basic and advanced.

Simple and basic is good for me and no one can convince me otherwise based on my post #57 and even more so in low cost electric areas (10 cents kWh) which like here, you may have the same in TN.

The house we bought in TN had new single stage units installed in 2018. Unfortunately, former owner was super cheap and went with Amana for the upstairs heat pump and Bryant for the downstairs AC and furnace. Fortunately, both units have performed well in the 3 years we've been here. Amana even has an LED diagnostic on the outside condenser which made it super simple to diagnose the capacitor failure this past summer.

 

[alarmguy]

I cringe at the "15yrs and you need to replace your HVAC system" statement. Maybe with the garbage they make today. My hot water baseboard boiler is easily 35+ years old. The single taco pump is newer. It probably had a bell and gossett at one time. We bought the home in 2011.

We've all got stories on the cost of paying for trade work these days. My older brother just had some plumbing work done. He normally does everything himself, but he farmed this one out. He had an old school copper main waste line corrode though in his basement. It was about a 10ft section that contained a few tees, Y's and an elbow. It was a $2K bill to swap it to plastic.

I fear for the future. There's a lot I can't do myself, nor can I afford to pay to have it done w/out making some poor financial choices. It's been 20yrs since I re-did a kitchen from floor to ceiling, but in my past two homes, $12-15K did it all (parts and labor) with me doing the tear out and electrical. It's easily 4-5x that cost now.

I know its tougher in the north, 20 years ago I got out of Metro New York
Here in the south, no concerns. bought a new home, big one, lived in it for 16 years no repairs. Kids gone and off on their own.
Sold that home and now ...
Smaller 3 BR 2 bath near the coast, brand new and will repeat. I hope I live at least another 16 years and will think about at that time if I trade into another new home so no repairs. It's easy to do here, new homes on every road.

 

[alarmguy]

You may fi

The house we bought in TN had new single stage units installed in 2018. Unfortunately, former owner was super cheap and went with Amana for the upstairs heat pump and Bryant for the downstairs AC and furnace. Fortunately, both units have performed well in the 3 years we've been here. Amana even has an LED diagnostic on the outside condenser which made it super simple to diagnose the capacitor failure this past summer.

You may find out those super cheap units last forever.

 

[Nukeman7]

The house we bought in TN had new single stage units installed in 2018. Unfortunately, former owner was super cheap and went with Amana for the upstairs heat pump and Bryant for the downstairs AC and furnace. Fortunately, both units have performed well in the 3 years we've been here. Amana even has an LED diagnostic on the outside condenser which made it super simple to diagnose the capacitor failure this past summer.

You may fi

You may find out those super cheap units last forever.

For the sake of clarity, Bryant is a Carrier sub-brand with the same internals, but with less fancy cabinetry. Amana is a mid-tier sub-brand owned by Daikin and is above Goodman. Here is a video that explains the branding and hierarchy within each manufacturer.

 

[alarmguy]

For the sake of clarity, Bryant is a Carrier sub-brand with the same internals, but with less fancy cabinetry. Amana is a mid-tier sub-brand owned by Daikin and is above Goodman. Here is a video that explains the branding and hierarchy within each manufacturer.

Yes, agree, all corporations now, many brand names have been bought out by someone else.
I didn't know who owned the Amana name but I just traced it (I dont know if it's in the video)
Amana was bought by Goodman in 1997 and in 2014 it was part of the acquisition by Daikin Industries. Daikin industries is the parent company of Goodman. *LOL* and owns Amana name.
Companies trade other companies and names like a dealer in Vegas shuffles a deck of cards. All these companies are easy to find ownership for anyone wishing to purchase a major appliance. Chances are someone bigger owns the company that you are buying.

Kind of why just for me, I prefer simple basic equipment that does the job. Consumer options on this type of equipment to me, is asking for trouble. Just dont know who, what, where ownership of that company and parts supply for consumer"high end" stuff will be available. But that is just me. I remember 18 year ago when we bought our new home and saw two HEIL AC units outside the house. I was a bit concerned only to learn, that the name I didn't know, has been around forever and is associated with United Technologies and Carrier and even between United and Carrier ownership has been all over the place but most of the parts like anything now are very similar and some even carry both Carrier and Heil part numbers. Dont quote me word for word on this except all those names are intermingled.

PS, just watched the full video. Really good and made me feel better about our 2 year old (almost) builder installed Lennox

 

[GON]

For the sake of clarity, Bryant is a Carrier sub-brand with the same internals, but with less fancy cabinetry. Amana is a mid-tier sub-brand owned by Daikin and is above Goodman. Here is a video that explains the branding and hierarchy within each manufacturer.

Found the video very helpful and well worth the 15 minutes. Thanks for posting.

Rheem was the manufacturer I was most surprised to learn about. The maker of the video's assessment was that Rheem makes the most serviceable HVAC system in the industry, at the expense of efficiency. The video producer went further to say Rheem as an outstanding choice for people in rural areas where proprietary parts and service expertise may be limited.

After watching the video, without any doubt a Rheem will be top on my list if I need a replacement HVAC system. I will prioritize serviceability/reliability over a little loss in efficiency every day of the week.

 

[Nukeman7]

Found the video very helpful and well worth the 15 minutes. Thanks for posting.

Rheem was the manufacturer I was most surprised to learn about. The maker of the video's assessment was that Rheem makes the most serviceable HVAC system in the industry, at the expense of efficiency. The video producer went further to say Rheem as an outstanding choice for people in rural areas where proprietary parts and service expertise may be limited.

After watching the video, without any doubt a Rheem will be too in my list if I need a replacement HVAC system.

One thing you should research is how Rheem/Ruud A/C units use a "N" shaped evaporator coil vs. everyone else's "A" shaped coil. The "N" coil is theoretically more efficient as a heat transfer device due to a larger surface area in a similar footprint. The drawbacks include increased difficulty in cleaning, inspecting and repairing a "N" coil.

In my experience, nothing is more self-service friendly than the Goodman units which use off-the-shelf generic parts frequently available at lower cost via Amazon or a local or online HVAC parts store. I also find the American Standard/Trane basic HVAC units to be reliable, logical and serviceable, although somewhat more difficult to source certain parts since their distribution network won't sell to an unlicensed homeowner.

 

[alarmguy]

Very sorry not a hit on the OP whatsoever, but I wouldn't take a Lennox for free.

I had a Lennox installed in my home a few years back. The installation company, the USA's largest reseller of Lennox couldn't get the non complex install right. This largest Lennox reseller used all new techs fresh out of some technical school. After a few months, I tried reaching out directly to Lennox, who simply would not accept any communications from a consumer/ non-reseller.

I researched Lennox corporate office, IIRC was in the greater DFW area. The CEO of Lennox was a USMA grad, former Army Engineer. I tried every way to get a call or correspondence to him. He took extreme measures to ensure he was unreachable. I even got a hold of the West Point Alumni directory and even he even shielded his information from that directory.

The home we rented in Washington had a new $35k USD Lennox heat pump system installed shortly after we moved in. Almost same story, installers were clueless, and when we moved out two years later- the $35k USD Lennox system still was not working properly, reportedly as the installers used incorrect parts. But no way to escalate the problem to Lennox corporate.

Gladly take an off brand ICP over any Lennox.

Terrible experiences that you had. With that said those installers are independent companies installing equipment, it happens all the time and not much you or Lennox can do about it. I recently learned if you chose a company like Trane one of very few if not the only one. I THINK (but not sure) that you actually have to be a Trane dealer to install their equipment not everyone can buy their equipment.

Me personally? as you know and expect!!! , low price wins and the most basic unit only. I rather reliability and perfectly willing and can afford to pay a small premium for electricity over a complicated computer circuit board controlled HVAC system that few understand or know how to fix or parts that are hard to come by. Most of this extra stuff is salesmanship for profits. Just like I dont care about the cost of gasoline for my vehicles, I dont care about the cost of electricity. Government mandates insure I wont use too much extra and I live in places with the lowest energy costs and taxes on top of everything else.

BTW- my wife's house had a new Trane unit when she bought a house around 2002, unit was a few years old if that much, stopped working, 2 contractors tried to sell her new units saying compressor is shot and that is covered but labor is not and she wasnt original owner, the 3rd contractor whom she called on my advice replaced a capacitor for $40 and $100 labor or so. That is all it was.

 

[alarmguy]

I cringe at the "15yrs and you need to replace your HVAC system" statement. Maybe with the garbage they make today. ...

Honestly? I personally think it's not garbage if you buy a basic non complicated system. However even in this thread people are but more so the common person get caught up in the "super high efficiency" salesmanship. They take a basic technology that has been around for 100 years and since anyone can make those systems, companies make this advanced mostly garbage that will not last half as long because they need something to make them sound better than the other guy and for more profits over a generic machine that cools and heats. What I am saying is the consumer, as always is clueless. They get caught up in "features" instead of just buying a unit that cools and heats the house.

 

[Mainia]

It may not be relevant now, but might be worth it to ask them if they’ll come back during the hot weather to check Freon level.
If the system isn’t a pre-charged one it may need both Freon once the weather is warmer.

Good call, I would say that is a must. I think they would have to go by a graph as the temps would not allow any concrete accurate gauge readings. I would be calling the salesman and demanding it and saying a friend of friend 30 years in the biz HVAC guy said to demand that summer come back freon check.

 

[Mainia]

Does anyone with a heat pump pay for a service contract?
I would never understand if they do. The mark up on this is incredible.
Maybe we have just been lucky, we had two outside units. One heat pump, one with gas furnace. Combined maybe 5.5 tons Ran 16 years and never opened the windows of the house. I spent about $500 over those 16 years and never called someone for an annual "tune up" or inspection. Sold home, still running strong. I suspect this might have more to do with uncomplicated basic units supplied by the builder. Simple time proven technology. Heil Units

Maybe we are lucky but I am expecting the same in this new home which is a smaller home and one unit (heat pump) We still never open the windows. Lennox unit (I almost wish they were Heil)

They ran so long "without tuneups" because a possible questionable HVAC guy was not around your HVAC hardware. No need for yearly inspections. I have the same great problem as you. ONE service call to top off freon on a 26 year old Carrier 410A that I installed. My plan was to buy a new inverter A/C in 3 years when I retire. That will give the new R32 & R454B issues with the added safety features need for that flammable freon. can be hashed out before I buy. I thought my Trane furnace was 12 years old but it looks like it is 15 years old and all it has needed was an igniter.

My 410A A/C unit I bought was the first year they came out with that version of freon, so it made it through 410A life cycle.

 

[Nukeman7]

Does anyone with a heat pump pay for a service contract?
I would never understand if they do. The mark up on this is incredible.
Maybe we have just been lucky, we had two outside units. One heat pump, one with gas furnace. Combined maybe 5.5 tons Ran 16 years and never opened the windows of the house. I spent about $500 over those 16 years and never called someone for an annual "tune up" or inspection. Sold home, still running strong. I suspect this might have more to do with uncomplicated basic units supplied by the builder. Simple time proven technology. Heil Units

I agree that service maintenance contracts on HVAC equipment are mostly equivalent to flushing money down the toilet. For those who are not familiar with what is performed during an annual/semi-annual "check-up service", you should read this 2023 BITOG HVAC Thread with specific focus on dnewton3's comments in Post #12. A HVAC service contract maintenance visit is comparable to the "112 point" complementary inspection offered when you visit your dealership, Jiffy Lube, or Firestone for an oil change...except it is not free.