"mini rant" regarding furnace issues/HVAC companies....

[JHZR2]

I get it that any tradespeople that need to come help, would be hard to get on holidays without some extra premium pay.

That said, they don’t get much of the premium, I suspect.

HVAC are some of the worst thieves, up there with car insurance companies.

 

[Nukeman7]

and they installed the new A/C today. Just in time for a snow storm!
with the time they took to get the furnace in ( a month) , I was afraid that they'd drag out the A/C install until spring, and we'd be a month or so into A/C weather before they came out.

Glad that you finally have a reliable source of heat just in time for the Arctic blast.

So, I am curious...what does $8400 buys you in today's HVAC environment? Can you provide the specifics (e.g., Brand, furnace efficiency rating, A/C SEER value & tonnage, single stage/two stage/variable speed blower, WiFi Thermostat, HEPA filter, etc.) of the system that was installed?

 

[earlyre]

uh... all Lennox..
furnace - https://www.lennoxpros.com/el297uh090xe48c-90btuh4t/p/24X62
evaporator coils - https://www.lennoxpros.com/ck40ct-48b-coil-4-0-ton-r410ar454b/p/25N51 ( using R454B)
A/C - not sure, it's papers (manuals etc) aren't with the other 2, and it's Dark Cold, and about to be snowing outside, so, not going out side to look at it. but judging by the other 2, i'll assume a 4 ton unit.
this one would be my best guess... https://www.lennoxpros.com/ml17kc2-048-230-cond4-0-ton230v/p/25U64
non-programmable thermostat ( has to be easy to operate for a 79 yr old parkinsons patient.), 2 stage blower.
best info i've gotten.
I believe this is the thermostat https://pro1iaq.com/t715

 

[Dinoburner]

Coupla things, first, under no circumstances should a pressure switch or any other safety be bypassed or jumped out. Second the service tech is only as good as his/her training and diagnostics ability. Maybe check with the BBB when things are going sideways.

 

[tbm5690]

uh... all Lennox..
furnace - https://www.lennoxpros.com/el297uh090xe48c-90btuh4t/p/24X62
evaporator coils - https://www.lennoxpros.com/ck40ct-48b-coil-4-0-ton-r410ar454b/p/25N51 ( using R454B)
A/C - not sure, it's papers (manuals etc) aren't with the other 2, and it's Dark Cold, and about to be snowing outside, so, not going out side to look at it. but judging by the other 2, i'll assume a 4 ton unit.
this one would be my best guess... https://www.lennoxpros.com/ml17kc2-048-230-cond4-0-ton230v/p/25U64
non-programmable thermostat ( has to be easy to operate for a 79 yr old parkinsons patient.), 2 stage blower.
best info i've gotten.
I believe this is the thermostat https://pro1iaq.com/t715

$8400 seems pretty reasonable for a 4 Ton 2-stage 97% with condenser and evaporator. Can't believe I'm saying that but it's true. I would have guessed over $10k for sure on that one.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

There is a large company near me who started to run tv commercials all the time. I knew of them from the very start. The company was founded by a local mechanic who stopped auto work to go into HVAC. He told everyone how much easier it was and it made him a better , honest living. Well this was well over 25 years ago. Today he has grown into the absolute largest in the area. I had always planned on using them to do the seasonal checks and cleanings yet for some reason before I called I decided to look into their online reviews. Thank goodness I did. They have more negative-red line reviews than I have ever seen. Most of the comments sound almost exactly the same. Each one tells tales of having the service contract and when the guy shows up to simply check/tune and clean it is always the same. "oh my , your system is old and on the blink. I think I need to get my consultant out here asap to work out a total new system for you all." Shameless! Of course I did not call them. I ended up sticking with small independent owners I was referred to by friends.

 

[Dave P.]

I get it that any tradespeople that need to come help, would be hard to get on holidays without some extra premium pay.

That said, they don’t get much of the premium, I suspect.

HVAC are some of the worst thieves, up there with car insurance companies.

Reminds me of an investigative news series from several years ago conducted by one of the New York TV stations. To try to catch dishonest HVAC repair companies, they set up a bait house with central air and then simply disconnected a wire on the outside equipment. It would be immediately obvious to anyone. Then they proceeded to call in some repair companies and they had a woman answer the door that "admitted" she doesn't know anything mechanical and all she knows is that the A/C isn't working and let the guys go take a look while she remained inside. Maybe three out of the five were honest and told her what the problem was and fixed it in a matter of minutes. One company didn't even try to charge her saying he had been in the neighborhood anyway. Others charged a minimum amount. The one that stuck in my mind was the guy who went to the side of the house and proceeded to "relieve" himself on the base of the A/C unit. Once zipped back up, he went back to the woman and brought her outside to show her the refrigerant leak and explain that she needed some major repairs. It was then that the cameraman and reporter came from behind their hiding spot and confronted the guy with video evidence. His hasty exit was must see TV. The fact that the camera also captured the company name as he pulled away was an added bonus.

 

[dishdude]

$8400 seems pretty reasonable for a 4 Ton 2-stage 97% with condenser and evaporator. Can't believe I'm saying that but it's true. I would have guessed over $10k for sure on that one.

Agreed, I was quoted a similar price for a two stage when I had mine replaced 10 years ago. I went for a single stage 4 ton off brand made by ICP for $5,700 in 2015.

 

[earlyre]

Agreed, I was quoted a similar price for a two stage when I had mine replaced 10 years ago. I went for a single stage 4 ton off brand made by ICP for $5,700 in 2015.

Iirc, the old system with a similarly sized trane( I think), and Payne(?) A/C, cost roughly $10k 13 years ago...

 

[alarmguy]

and they installed the new A/C today. Just in time for a snow storm!
with the time they took to get the furnace in ( a month) , I was afraid that they'd drag out the A/C install until spring, and we'd be a month or so into A/C weather before they came out.

It may not be relevant now, but might be worth it to ask them if they’ll come back during the hot weather to check Freon level.
If the system isn’t a pre-charged one it may need both Freon once the weather is warmer.

 

[GON]

Agreed, I was quoted a similar price for a two stage when I had mine replaced 10 years ago. I went for a single stage 4 ton off brand made by ICP for $5,700 in 2015.

Very sorry not a hit on the OP whatsoever, but I wouldn't take a Lennox for free.

I had a Lennox installed in my home a few years back. The installation company, the USA's largest reseller of Lennox couldn't get the non complex install right. This largest Lennox reseller used all new techs fresh out of some technical school. After a few months, I tried reaching out directly to Lennox, who simply would not accept any communications from a consumer/ non-reseller.

I researched Lennox corporate office, IIRC was in the greater DFW area. The CEO of Lennox was a USMA grad, former Army Engineer. I tried every way to get a call or correspondence to him. He took extreme measures to ensure he was unreachable. I even got a hold of the West Point Alumni directory and even he even shielded his information from that directory.

The home we rented in Washington had a new $35k USD Lennox heat pump system installed shortly after we moved in. Almost same story, installers were clueless, and when we moved out two years later- the $35k USD Lennox system still was not working properly, reportedly as the installers used incorrect parts. But no way to escalate the problem to Lennox corporate.

Gladly take an off brand ICP over any Lennox.

 

[Cropduster172]

Have had nothing but positive experience with Carrier HVAC products under the Carrier, Payne and Bryant brand names. Went with a Payne single stage gas furnace 2 years ago in our primary home and a Bryant single stage gas furnace and new AC in our beach house in 2022. Both were installed by well established, local family owned HVAC companies.

 

[Opelman]

Glad that you finally have heat. If you want to talk complex, the house we bought is all electric with an open loop geothermal heat pump using well water. Supposed to be super energy efficient. The well pump controller is a phase converter unit that electronically takes single phase power and converts it to 3 phase for the well pump. It also varies the AC frequency to vary the well pump speed according to demand from the house and/or geo unit.The controller crapped out last year, $2,000 to replace it. Any energy savings negated for a while.

 

[thastinger]

Good thing that service tech didn't see my two 32 year old Carrier units...his head would have exploded.

 

[johnmyster]

By now, the salvageable bits of your old unit are listed on ebay by the technicians that pulled them.

Which is where I bought a $75 blower motor for my 15 year old unit three years ago. Local HVAC house quoted $1200 for the part, plus diagnosis, plus installation, etc. It would have easily been a "time for a new system" conversation that yours turned into.

"Guys, I already diagnosed it. Motor has three poles and one is a dead short. I'm pretty sure I found the problem."

 

[earlyre]

By now, the salvageable bits of your old unit are listed on ebay by the technicians that pulled them.

Which is where I bought a $75 blower motor for my 15 year old unit three years ago. Local HVAC house quoted $1200 for the part, plus diagnosis, plus installation, etc. It would have easily been a "time for a new system" conversation that yours turned into.

"Guys, I already diagnosed it. Motor has three poles and one is a dead short. I'm pretty sure I found the problem."

that, or set aside for their annual " scratch and dent sale" they run every fall....
and for anyone curious,
here's a screenshot of their maintenance contract, or " energy savings agreement" as they call it... with of course their header cropped out. don't need folks spamming them or some such.

 

[alarmguy]

that, or set aside for their annual " scratch and dent sale" they run every fall....
and for anyone curious,
here's a screenshot of their maintenance contract, or " energy savings agreement" as they call it... with of course their header cropped out. don't need folks spamming them or some such.

View attachment 258118

Does anyone with a heat pump pay for a service contract?
I would never understand if they do. The mark up on this is incredible.
Maybe we have just been lucky, we had two outside units. One heat pump, one with gas furnace. Combined maybe 5.5 tons Ran 16 years and never opened the windows of the house. I spent about $500 over those 16 years and never called someone for an annual "tune up" or inspection. Sold home, still running strong. I suspect this might have more to do with uncomplicated basic units supplied by the builder. Simple time proven technology. Heil Units

Maybe we are lucky but I am expecting the same in this new home which is a smaller home and one unit (heat pump) We still never open the windows. Lennox unit (I almost wish they were Heil)

 

[2002 Maxima SE]

We had our furnace (original Carrier) due to a cracked heat exchanger go out in winter in 2003 (we moved into the home in May of that year). The new unit was Bryant. Fast forward 15 years and the AC unit (original Carrier) went out. AC unit was about 25 years old and had leaks. We replaced it with single stage unit. Our neighbors had replaced there's a few years prior with a multi stage unit and had nothing but problems.

The new AC we were pricing was Trane. Even though the furnace was still working great, it was only an additional $500 to replace it, so we did. We had 0 issues with the system before moving 5 years later.

 

[alarmguy]

We had our furnace (original Carrier) due to a cracked heat exchanger go out in winter in 2003 (we moved into the home in May of that year). The new unit was Bryant. Fast forward 15 years and the AC unit (original Carrier) went out. AC unit was about 25 years old and had leaks. We replaced it with single stage unit. Our neighbors had replaced there's a few years prior with a multi stage unit and had nothing but problems.

The new AC we were pricing was Trane. Even though the furnace was still working great, it was only an additional $500 to replace it, so we did. We had 0 issues with the system before moving 5 years later.

Yeah, My opinion is multi-stage, super efficient, high cost premium units are simply high markup items, salesmanship for max profits and paychecks. It's the only reason they exist. From what I read even in this forum are years later when one of those units do need a repair, sometimes the parts are no longer available OR the talent/education of the techs to repair them with the complicated programing and circuit boards just doesnt exist. In fact even as @GON has posted a $35,000 system with clueless installers for both basic and advanced.

Simple and basic is good for me and no one can convince me otherwise based on my post #57 and even more so in low cost electric areas (10 cents kWh) which like here, you may have the same in TN.

 

[JTK]

I cringe at the "15yrs and you need to replace your HVAC system" statement. Maybe with the garbage they make today. My hot water baseboard boiler is easily 35+ years old. The single taco pump is newer. It probably had a bell and gossett at one time. We bought the home in 2011.

We've all got stories on the cost of paying for trade work these days. My older brother just had some plumbing work done. He normally does everything himself, but he farmed this one out. He had an old school copper main waste line corrode though in his basement. It was about a 10ft section that contained a few tees, Y's and an elbow. It was a $2K bill to swap it to plastic.

I fear for the future. There's a lot I can't do myself, nor can I afford to pay to have it done w/out making some poor financial choices. It's been 20yrs since I re-did a kitchen from floor to ceiling, but in my past two homes, $12-15K did it all (parts and labor) with me doing the tear out and electrical. It's easily 4-5x that cost now.