Mercedes, VW, Import dealers. Diesels. Says Im wasting my time.

[Korean_redneck]

I wanted to test drive the New VW Jetta Diesel, New Mercedes Benz E320 CDI and a Used TDI at a import center.. but they all told me they sell like hot cakes when the high gas prices went out.
Then these seperate dealers told me not to waste my time because diesels are not worth it MPG:Maintenance cost Ratio. I dreamed of owning a New Mercedes CDI. They also told me that Hybrids are the same.
They also told me that the folks in Germany don't really pay attention to Diesel sales in USA because they sell really good in Europe, thats why theres a delay in diesel imports.. this kinds of makes me mad.

what do you guys think?

 

[Johnny]

I think they are nuts. I would call VW and Mercedes and tell them what these dealers said.

I've owned two VW diesels and the cost of maintenance vs mpg was nothing.

Find two new dealers.

 

[Schism]

I agree with Johnny, look around, you can check www.autos.yahoo.com Should be able to find something of interest near you that you can test drive.

 

[k1xv]

He wants to sell you a gasoline powered car as he has no diesels sitting on his lot.

I have driven diesels for over 20 years and they are terrific, particularly the new ones with the high pressure Bosch injection system.

I have a 7000 lb GMC Crew Cab 4x4 Pick-up with a 6.6 liter turbocharged V-8 Duramax diesel. I get 19-24 mpg, depending on conditions. The gas engine version gets about 11 mpg.

Maintenance consists of oil and oil filter changes and fuel filter changes. That's it.

 

[Willy_G]

Used VWs ARE a maintenance nightmare...not just TDIs. I would not even consider any used VWs. Some VWs have 40k timing belts on interference engines! Fuel filter changes are ‘fun’ and messy, and their electronics are very problematic.

The new VW TDI and has some reduced care & maintenance, but VW still is wrestling with some serious internal issues and quality problems. The new TDI requires specific oil meeting VW’s 505.01. You have about 4 choices in the U.S., including the dealer’s $6/qt Castrol.

MB is a much better car and company, but they have slipped off the pinnacle in the past few years. If one HAD TO HAVE a diesel car, this would be a decent choice.

After having a VW TDI for well over 4 years and VWoA & several dealers causing all kinds of headaches for me, when people ask me about current VWs, I tell them to find a highly rated, efficient gas car. Honda Civic 1.7l, 4cyl Accord, Mazda 3, etc...

VW TDIs may be efficient, but diesel fuel has been running about 30% higher than gas (diesel is set to go higher during the heating season!) and the TDI engine costs ~$2000. Where do you break even and get into the black?

This is just the long way of saying those dealers lost their shirt on any diesels they may have stocked and only want to move what is easy & profitable to sell.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by Korean_redneck:

Then these seperate dealers told me not to waste my time because diesels are not worth it MPG:Maintenance cost Ratio. I dreamed of owning a New Mercedes CDI.

what do you guys think?

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What I think, is that here in the near future diesel will cost so much more than regular gas it will not be worth it to own one.

If diesel was less than gas then it's worth it, but when it's more the percentage that you are saving is not as great.

In 2007 Diesel is mandated to be ULSD. Which is going to be an added expense becuase they cannot transport it through the same channels as the regular stuff.

As far as maintenance, I don't see where you would have higher costs. The engines last longer, you don't have spark plugs, etc.

The only thing on the TDI you have to worry about is the fuel filter and the Timing Belt.
But with 10K oil changes you are saving quite a bit there compared to 3k changes.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:


I do find it odd that there are not more "sector" oriented use of diesels. Like a cab offering ..etc. We don't need V6 Crown Vic's to be cabs ..nor sedans at all ..yet these are the vehicles of choice for such applications

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Sorta off topic, but I noticed several Toyota Prius cabs in Victoria, BC a few weeks ago. If they are durable enough seems like a good fit for the job.

quote:

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The problem in the US is that far too many people need a car in a capacity that would make a diesel impractical.

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Like what?

 

[Quattro Pete]

I agree with msparks. It's not the maintenance issue that throttles down diesel sales in the US. It's the fact that at most gas stations diesel is more expensive than regular gas. In Europe, diesel is significantly less expensive than gas due to some ancient tax rules, and hence diesel engines are so popular there.

 

[Gary Allan]

The problem in the US is that far too many people need a car in a capacity that would make a diesel impractical. Most in Europe would not own a car for this usage, while we're kinda mandated to have one. So when you're contouring a "marketing strategy" ..diesels just don't fit very well in mass numbers. Throw away gasoline cars are more economical and practical in this wasteful capacity.

I do find it odd that there are not more "sector" oriented use of diesels. Like a cab offering ..etc. We don't need V6 Crown Vic's to be cabs ..nor sedans at all ..yet these are the vehicles of choice for such applications

 

[michaelc80]

I looked at diesels when I bought my Subaru, but running the numbers I couldn't make it pay out over a reasonable time. Between the higher up front costs and the higher price of fuel it just didn't make economic sense for my driving style.

 

[JHZR2]

VW diesels are cost effective but troublesome, IMO... Worse when used for many miles.

MB diesels are very good... doesnt mean that some maintenance tasks arent harder than they ought to be, or that there wont be gunk built up in them same as in the VWs. Theyre just better cars.

If you want a REAL MB, get a nice 77-85 w123 chassis mercedes diesel. These cars are real mercedes, not like the stuff they put out now... simplicity and good engineering dictated what those cars were, and you can tell that they are excellent cars from just driving in one for a couple miles... Itll only run you ~$5000 for one that is in OK mechanical condition and has no rust, and youll love it, plus you can easily recoup any costs in no time...

JMH

 

[Razl]

I was considering a VW Passat TDI for my wife since she travels about 30k miles per year. Is that a mistake?

 

[Tosh]

KR: Don't give up on your dream of owning a Mercedes diesel. Just wait a couple of years to see what offerings come along when the low sulphur diesel supply settles out. Worldwide, there are very nice diesels waiting for our market: BMW, Toyota, Honda...
Razl: Any VW is a mistake. Sorry folks: No matter how good they drive or how stylish they look, VWs are rubbish (and help give diesels a bad name).

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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VWs are rubbish (and help give diesels a bad name)

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I love those posts that are based solely on personal opinion and have absolutely no merit beyond that whatsoever. What happened, Tosh? Did you buy a VW lemon once?

 

[Quattro Pete]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tosh:
VWs are rubbish

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Compared to what? Don't tell me the American stuff. LOL!

 

[mechtech]

I agree that the dealer was trying to unload the gas cars from his lot.
But diesel DOES cost more per galllon, and usually have increased oil capacity [more for an oil change]. Then there's the fuel filter $$$ maintainance, and possibly two batteries to replace, instead of one.
Most people pay big initial cost, fuel, maintainace, and repair bills, but always point to the MPG only as the justification.

 

[JHZR2]

the inline filter for my mercedes was $1.20, the spin on wasnt more $ than a spin on oil filter, either.

No auto diesel that Ive seen has 2 batteries... PM filterwise isnt more than any other vehicle.

Enlarged oil sumps are not a bad thing... and an MB diesel can easily go over 7500 miles with soot loadng still below 1%.

JMH

 

[Audi Junkie]

"VWs have 40k timing belts on interference engines"

No, only for a year or two. I believe updated parts are available. Don't know the details.

Can't you just run No.2 Heating Oil spiled with some additives and save the tax? iirc, 70%-80% of Audis and other Euro cars sold in Europe are diesels. Newest injectors systems and engines require low-sulphur diesel, BP alredy sells it here but the whole situation keeps these latest engines off the US market. iirc, these engines are super-efficient, closest to Renee' Carnot's theoretical limits on an I-C-E, (like 40%) than ANY other engine.

 

[Audi Junkie]

quote:

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quote:
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VWs are rubbish (and help give diesels a bad name)
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I love those posts that are based solely on personal opinion and have absolutely no merit beyond that whatsoever. What happened, Tosh? Did you buy a VW lemon once?

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Pete, Tosh and KN_R know everything there is to know about Euro cars...that other cars are cheaper. Plus they get blurbs from CNN and Money Magazine, the Pinicle of Automobile Discression. Ironicly, what do you think the people who write these articles drive?

 

[Willy_G]

RAZL,
Run the Passat's numbers (mileage, fuel cost, service cost, insurance, initial cost, etc...) up against a Malibu 4 cyl. If your wife is on the highway a lot, this might be an economical consideration. Sure domestics aren't as dope & depreciate faster, but 30% of $20k is a less than 28% of $30k…after a few years the mileage will kill just about any value, on any car

After 25+ years of buying nothing but Volkswagens, I went back to GM. I'd have to say they have come a long way. Some of their models top Toyota in quality reports. I was sure surprised after driving several of thier models while my Jetta was in for repairs. I had an '03 DeVille, 99, 00, and 01 Saturn SLs, & '04 Malibu. Being rentals, I gave them a beating and was nothing but impressed. They days of the Cavalier & Celebrity are gone.

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JHZR2,
Some of the wretched GM passenger car diesels from the 80s had 2 batteries. I think they might have even had 24 volt starters, but the rest of the car was 12V.

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AJ,
I think it is funny that I say VW has 40k timing belts, then you say, “No, only for a year or two”. So you are affirming with a “No”? Maybe I should have say “had” instead of “have”. But still 40k on the 1999-2002 TDI auto timing belt is a joke in this (that) day and age. I don’t think the updated parts are rated for higher mileage due to the stress the fuel pump puts on the belt and tensioner. The fuel pump for the auto trans TDI ran more line pressure, generating the increased stress.

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Not to turn this into another VW hater thread, but VW is in some serious trouble regarding management, quality & sales.

To keep from posting 100 links, just Google "Volkswagen trouble" and similar terms, to read all this straight from the source. These aren’t personal opinion, but well documented facts.

It really is sad how management has killed VWs reputation. The 80’s were great. After the dismal early 90’s, they had it going on in the late 90’s…but I guess greed can get in the way of everything. If VW could Toyota-ize its quality within one year, they would be unstoppable! That would be a nice thing to see.

I wish other manf’s would bring their TDs over here. We only have 2 diesel car choices in the U.S. 3 if you include the Liberty. Some diesel competition would be nice. Maybe after ULSD???

(ok...I'm done ranting)

[ October 12, 2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Willy_G ]