Media shedding

[Hatsuwr]

I meant to ask you if it is possible to put some sort of scale into the images. Had no idea what size they were.

Under the magnification of this one, the entire field of view is ~1.85 mm. I tried transferring the debris to a piece of tape, so the smaller stuff is a bit more visible.

*edit* Wow that didn't survive image compression somewhere along the way lol. The large one is 95 microns, the medium is 38, and the small is 8.

 

[kschachn]

Under the magnification of this one, the entire field of view is ~1.85 mm. I tried transferring the debris to a piece of tape, so the smaller stuff is a bit more visible.

*edit* Wow that didn't survive image compression somewhere along the way lol. The large one is 95 microns, the medium is 38, and the small is 8.

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But not all particles are damaging, an iron particle is not the same as a fiber that isn't in any way clogging or blocking something.

 

[OLEJOE]

But not all particles are damaging, an iron particle is not the same as a fiber that isn't in any way clogging or blocking something.

What if it is clogging or blocking something ?

 

[OLEJOE]

I ve been doing this to compare filter flow rate and never thought to filter what it was sucking out of them.

 

[JHZR2]

You should see the old threads about cotton gin waste in MB diesel bypass filters…

I created a more modern thread on it sometime back…

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/399902-cut-open-hengst-om617-oil-filter.html

That was for the bypass section!! Note the actual cotton gin type waste in it! Yet these engines last hundreds of thousands of miles without issue, and there are tons of them on the road at 40 years old…


All that said, the OP has done some great work with trying to collect and image junk in the filter. No idea how pristine the filters truly are, and how pristine OP was in collecting the dirt out (I.e. could some of it be from other outside sources?).

But this is super interesting and it would be great to see some more of it. Maybe with a paper media not a tshirt as the collection interface.

 

[Hatsuwr]

You're just not getting it. Most people do go to these places. Even a lot of BITOG folks don't change their own oil.

I'll try one last time. Do you know of one of these places that vacuums out a filter? IF you say yes, I won't believe you. Now, pay attention, how many people DO go to these quick lubes on a DAILY basis? They still getting 200, 300, 400 out of a car? Yup.

People that vacuum out their oil filter before use: .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 %
People that don't: 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%

I have personally NEVER vacuumed out an oil filter. Ever. Maybe make a poll to see how many BITOG folks do vacuum out a filter before use? Maybe there are some? I always inspect my oil filter before use. Sure, if I saw something in the hole, I would get it out before use. I doubt a quick lube would even look and just spin it on.......

Hopefully you get what I'm trying to explain to you. If not, I'm out. Good luck with your Dyson and your oil filter stash.

I do get it, the comment was (mostly) a joke. Obviously none of those places vacuum an oil filter to clean it.

You seem to be getting quite agitated over this, and I'm not sure why. I think I have fully demonstrated that there is debris from new oil filters that will enter your engine. The question of how much damage that would cause is an interesting and open one. Personally, I think there is a potential for increased wear that warrants some further investigation.

Personally, I wouldn't stick a chunk of fiberglass (or other contaminants) into my engine oil. When I open drain and fill ports for any fluid, I make sure to briefly clean around them first to keep things clean. Based on what I have seen so far, I think it's worth 10 seconds to do a quick vacuum of a new filter for the same reason.

But not all particles are damaging, an iron particle is not the same as a fiber that isn't in any way clogging or blocking something.

Glass is actually harder than most metals used in engines. Glass also won't be captured by magnets like ferromagnetic particles. So I agree, they are not the same.

 

[Urshurak776]

Oh, not agitated at all. I get what you're saying and I agree with you. Just stating that we at BITOG obsess a bit when in the grand scheme of things, most of it is pretty minor on the concern meter.

 

[fantastic]

Obviously, this was inspired by the Fleetguard zoom & OP put it to the test (great job!). I think it was a good perspective about media tech & their potential "flaws" or "downsides". There are other particles other than fiber, yes, & there is going to be glue material that sheds as well along with fiberglass. That's what makes media made out of plastic (nano fiber) or "melt-blown" media a better option in this regard. Microglass has small pieces that have ends to them while better tech media is continuous. It solves that problem. Problem is I don't think Fleetguard has a lot of regular consumer/passenger auto applications? Perhaps we can get a list of "Melt-Blow" type media on here from other brands too. Here's some of what we've gone over.

 

[OLEJOE]

Obviously, this was inspired by the Fleetguard zoom & OP put it to the test (great job!). I think it was a good perspective about media tech & their potential "flaws" or "downsides". There are other particles other than fiber, yes, & there is going to be glue material that sheds as well along with fiberglass. That's what makes media made out of plastic (nano fiber) or "melt-blown" media a better option in this regard. Microglass has small pieces that have ends to them while better tech media is continuous. It solves that problem. Problem is I don't think Fleetguard has a lot of regular consumer/passenger auto applications? Perhaps we can get a list of "Melt-Blow" type media on here from other brands too. Here's some of what we've gone over.

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Which category does Stratapore media go into ?

 

[fantastic]

Which category does Stratapore media go into ?

A lot of filters we use today have a combination of those media's. I could assume but I'd rather not & simply point you to a good source for that here.

Fleetguard Rep (Jay)
@NashNative

​

Fleetguard Filters With Stratapore Media​

The Fleetguard Stratapore filtration media is a "proprietary technology" used in Fleetguard fuel filters, oil filters, and processors. This advanced filtration media is designed to deliver best-in-class performance and meets or exceeds OEM quality and performance. Stratapore is a multi-layered synthetic medium that is capable of removing the smallest contaminants that cause the most engine damage and fuel. This Synthetic media type is stronger and more durable than traditional cellulose and microglass media, ensuring a cleaner fuel and oil supply for maximum engine life. The Stratapore media is used in various Fleetguard products, including fuel/water separators and oil filters, to protect vital fuel injection system components from contaminants like dirt, rust, and water.

The benefits of the Fleetguard Stratapore filtration media include:​

• The Stratapore Media is a synthetic fiber media that is applied in several layers for finer filtration as contaminants pass through the media.
• The Fleetguard Stratapore Filtration Media is engineered to support extended drain intervals, which means less frequent filter changes and potentially lower maintenance costs.
• The Fleetguard filters are reported to be 50% efficient multipass at 7 microns, allowing for very little pressure drop while maintaining high filtration efficiency.
• The Stratapore media has been proven to reduce engine wear by as much as 60% in some applications, contributing to a longer engine life.
• The major advantage of the Fleetguard Stratapore Filtration Media is that when compared to traditional cellulose filter media, Stratapore synthetic media provides a higher capacity for holding contaminants.
• Stratapore offers the Maximum strength and durability for your filtration needs.
• The best fuel/water separation efficiency is available.
• Reduced restriction to flow when used in cold weather applications.
• Approved for use in extended service interval applications.
• Fleetguards unique melt-blown manufacturing process produces layers composed of continuous, high-strength polymeric fibers resulting in a stronger, more durable bond that maintains media strength.

The StrataPore synthetic media is a proprietary technology that outperforms traditional cellulose or microglass media. It offers better particle removal and a longer lifespan. StrataPore has the unique ability to optimize individual media layers for the required particle size, making it highly effective in extended service environments. Its superior technology has been recognized by the filtration industry, including an award for innovative design from the American Filtration Society.

 

[Urshurak776]

A member named "hammer" said:

"Stratapore is more than synthetic media, it's also a layered media with large particles being filtered on the outside layer, medium size particles on middle layer, and small particles on inner layer. It allows a higher flowrate and dirt holding capacity than normal synthetic media. I highly recommend Stratapore Fleetguards over everything. I uses it on my Cummins N14, My 2001 7.3 powerstroke, and even my 94 Z28."

Edit: @fantastic beat me to the punch.

 

[fantastic]

A member named "hammer" said:

"Stratapore is more than synthetic media, it's also a layered media with large particles being filtered on the outside layer, medium size particles on middle layer, and small particles on inner layer. It allows a higher flowrate and dirt holding capacity than normal synthetic media. I highly recommend Stratapore Fleetguards over everything. I uses it on my Cummins N14, My 2001 7.3 powerstroke, and even my 94 Z28."

That explanation along with this image below may be helpful. (Center Image) You can see the dots & how they're all accumulated towards the top for the bigger micron particles, while the smaller particles are filtered further down inside the media. Middle images of the dots. Along w/the media layers to the left. Different media layers target different size micron particles.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Obviously, this was inspired by the Fleetguard zoom & OP put it to the test (great job!). I think it was a good perspective about media tech & their potential "flaws" or "downsides". There are other particles other than fiber, yes, & there is going to be glue material that sheds as well along with fiberglass. That's what makes media made out of plastic (nano fiber) or "melt-blown" media a better option in this regard. Microglass has small pieces that have ends to them while better tech media is continuous. It solves that problem. Problem is I don't think Fleetguard has a lot of regular consumer/passenger auto applications? Perhaps we can get a list of "Melt-Blow" type media on here from other brands too. Here's some of what we've gone over.

I actually missed the Zoom meeting unfortunately, but good timing! Thank you for sharing those slides. I started looking into micro fiber type filters since doing this, and contacted Donaldson and Fleetmaster. Donaldson didn't really answer any of my questions and just told me they don't sell to individuals (even though I never even hinted at wanting to buy anything?) Fleetguard said they can't identify filters by characteristic instead of by application due to liability reasons lol. They did send me a 2015 catalog to look at that would hopefully contain more info, but the file is cut off before it gets to anything interesting.

You should see the old threads about cotton gin waste in MB diesel bypass filters…

I created a more modern thread on it sometime back…

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/399902-cut-open-hengst-om617-oil-filter.html

That was for the bypass section!! Note the actual cotton gin type waste in it! Yet these engines last hundreds of thousands of miles without issue, and there are tons of them on the road at 40 years old…


All that said, the OP has done some great work with trying to collect and image junk in the filter. No idea how pristine the filters truly are, and how pristine OP was in collecting the dirt out (I.e. could some of it be from other outside sources?).

But this is super interesting and it would be great to see some more of it. Maybe with a paper media not a tshirt as the collection interface.

While I would prefer no media shedding, I'd be a lot more comfortable with cotton or micro fiber types than fiber glass.

I can't account for the handling of the filters before I bought them, I was very careful not to introduce any external contaminants. I pretty confident that every fiber-shaped object shown is either from the filters or the t-shirt fabric.

I think a paper filter would be a really good option. One difficulty is that you want a large filter to increase the airflow rate, but that increases the search area too. The contrast between paper filter media and whatever is being captured from synthetic oil filters would be helpful.

 

[Fair enough]

I agree with the experiment, been seeing dust and things inside oil filters. You almost need to dislodge them first with some compressed air, then vacuum.
The factories are by and large oily and dirty and the more they try to run them hard the worse it gets for the product.
There are different types of glass with different hardnesses, but it does crush easily under pressure, metal may deform but doesn’t crush into smaller pieces so easily. The softer main and rod bearings it seems to me are the most vulnerable.
The Boss has polyester fibers I think I read here somewhere, that’s nice and soft.

So which Asian filter is considered best now? Got someone using Oreilly. Wcw had a good cut open on a Pentius. Autozone has a premium stp don’t really know about those. At least these two have a USA store front. I guess some like Pentius have just an office and warehouse.

 

[fantastic]

I actually missed the Zoom meeting unfortunately, but good timing! Thank you for sharing those slides. I started looking into micro fiber type filters since doing this, and contacted Donaldson and Fleetmaster. Donaldson didn't really answer any of my questions and just told me they don't sell to individuals (even though I never even hinted at wanting to buy anything?) Fleetguard said they can't identify filters by characteristic instead of by application due to liability reasons lol. They did send me a 2015 catalog to look at that would hopefully contain more info, but the file is cut off before it gets to anything interesting.

Wow, My mistake! Yeah, perfect timing is spot on. We were discussing the Synthetic Micro Fiber & how they can dislodge from the media. I figured you wanted to see for yourself LOL. Some of these companies act like they don't have any responsibility to inform or direct regular joe's like us. I'm thrilled you brought this shedding phenomenon to the forum.

 

[kschachn]

While I would prefer no media shedding, I'd be a lot more comfortable with cotton or micro fiber types than fiber glass.

Why is that?

 

[kschachn]

Wow, My mistake! Yeah, perfect timing is spot on. We were discussing the Synthetic Micro Fiber & how they can dislodge from the media. I figured you wanted to see for yourself LOL. Some of these companies act like they don't have any responsibility to inform or direct regular joe's like us. I'm thrilled you brought this shedding phenomenon to the forum.

Which companies are those?

 

[Hatsuwr]

Why is that?

Cotton and polymers used in synthetic filters are pretty soft materials. I think damage from them could only really start to happen if it got to the point where there was clogging, which would require a lot more material that you would see from media shedding.

Glass on the other hand is very hard and abrasive. I would expect its contributions to wear to be similar to silica.

 

[kschachn]

Cotton and polymers used in synthetic filters are pretty soft materials. I think damage from them could only really start to happen if it got to the point where there was clogging, which would require a lot more material that you would see from media shedding.

Glass on the other hand is very hard and abrasive. I would expect its contributions to wear to be similar to silica.

Well if you think so. I think that there is a lot of imagination going on in this thread, phantom fears that haven't been supported yet.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Followed by a boroscope inspection.

Gotta do an ADBV sealing "blow test" too.