Mechanic recommended MMO

[EType]

Originally Posted By: brianm_14
As a former chemistry professor (I am now in Life Sciences) and experienced researcher, I of course love to see quantitative data that rests on good stats. But there is a lot in the world which resists such analysis, due to inherent difficulties or lack of money. Many scientists avoid addressing a number of interesting and meaningful questions simply because they cannot figure out how to get at the problem in the standard fashion, with all the statistical trimmings. Too bad for all of all!

In science, and especially medicine, we often need to address problems with only a limited database. Not the ideal, not my preference, but sometimes anecdotal evidence is what we have to go on. This is where artfulness comes in. Use your judgment. This applies to MSDS. Deal with them all the time, remember when they were hard to obtain. The composition of MMO suggests to me that one avoid skin contact or ingestion. As for it harming aluminum, the MSDS is not fine-tuned to help us judge at what concentration, and length of exposure, this would be of concern in an engine. I suspect Al engine parts are exposed to greater challenges!

I use MMO on a limited basis. Don't go around chronically worrying about it, or I wouldn't use it. If you need to use products which meet certain evidential standards, you are going to live in a quite circumscribed world. Long use in pharmacy has led to many components and products being termed GRAS -Generally Recognized As Safe. This acknowledges that accumulated anecdotal evidence is not without value.

Your mileage may -indeed will- vary, so to each his own. But by all means, let us share our "anecdotes".


I largely agree with you.

I use approved medicines on a limited basis. If I needed to use them more often, I would investigate / see a doctor.

I also rely on those that have performed testing and given approvals eg USP for medicines

 

[morris]

per EType the sky is falling. the sky is falling. the sky is falling.

 

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted By: brianm_14
As a former chemistry professor (I am now in Life Sciences) and experienced researcher, I of course love to see quantitative data that rests on good stats. But there is a lot in the world which resists such analysis, due to inherent difficulties or lack of money. Many scientists avoid addressing a number of interesting and meaningful questions simply because they cannot figure out how to get at the problem in the standard fashion, with all the statistical trimmings. Too bad for all of all!

In science, and especially medicine, we often need to address problems with only a limited database. Not the ideal, not my preference, but sometimes anecdotal evidence is what we have to go on. This is where artfulness comes in. Use your judgment. This applies to MSDS. Deal with them all the time, remember when they were hard to obtain. The composition of MMO suggests to me that one avoid skin contact or ingestion. As for it harming aluminum, the MSDS is not fine-tuned to help us judge at what concentration, and length of exposure, this would be of concern in an engine. I suspect Al engine parts are exposed to greater challenges!

I use MMO on a limited basis. Don't go around chronically worrying about it, or I wouldn't use it. If you need to use products which meet certain evidential standards, you are going to live in a quite circumscribed world. Long use in pharmacy has led to many components and products being termed GRAS -Generally Recognized As Safe. This acknowledges that accumulated anecdotal evidence is not without value.

Your mileage may -indeed will- vary, so to each his own. But by all means, let us share our "anecdotes".

 

[morris]

has anyone kept track of how many insults donald has put on MMO?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: morris
has anyone kept track of how many insults donald has put on MMO?


Nowhere near all the ones directed at ARX and its users.

 

[Mystic]

Thank you very much for your kind statements brianm_14. I agree with what you say.

And there is something else I think needs saying. We rely on people here to tell us truthfully about their experiences with various products, especially products such as engine cleaners and oil supplements that are not likely to receive detailed testing. Certified motor oils of course do go through a lot of testing such as engine sequence testing. But we reply a great deal on anecdotal testimony from people here about their experiences, good or bad, with various products.

Various people have come to this website and try to promote a certain product. And they try to minimize the value of the anecdotal testimony of people for various products by saying that scientific proof is needed for any engine cleaner or oil supplement. So what is their 'scientific' proof? Compression testing done with a compression tester of unknown quality with no independent verification. They make a big deal about this as if a compression tester is like scientific equipment used in Carbon 14 dating. Some cheap compression testers are nothing but junk and very unreliable. And even if a high quality compression tester is used independent verification of claims would be needed. Anybody trained in the scientific method would know that.

In fact, demarpaint did compression testing after using MMO. But the people who are trying to promote a certain product belittle demarpaint with his 40 years of experience using MMO and belittle the experience of Trav, a trained mechanic, with Kreen. They belittle and minimize all of the anecdotal testimony of all of the people at this website. And try to claim that their compression testing of the product they are trying to promote is somehow 'scientific' testing. Compression testing done by one individual with a compression tester of unknown quality and with no independent verification by known neutral sources.

These are things that have needed to be said here for a long time. I respect the anecdotal testimony of people here unless and until we discover that a given individual cannot be trusted. I respect people here unless a given individual demonstrates he cannot be trusted.

 

[EType]

Mystic, there is one thing in your post that I am curious about.

What is "engine sequence testing"?

Regards

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Thank you very much for your kind statements brianm_14. I agree with what you say.

And there is something else I think needs saying. We rely on people here to tell us truthfully about their experiences with various products, especially products such as engine cleaners and oil supplements that are not likely to receive detailed testing. Certified motor oils of course do go through a lot of testing such as engine sequence testing. But we reply a great deal on anecdotal testimony from people here about their experiences, good or bad, with various products.

Various people have come to this website and try to promote a certain product. And they try to minimize the value of the anecdotal testimony of people for various products by saying that scientific proof is needed for any engine cleaner or oil supplement. So what is their 'scientific' proof? Compression testing done with a compression tester of unknown quality with no independent verification. They make a big deal about this as if a compression tester is like scientific equipment used in Carbon 14 dating. Some cheap compression testers are nothing but junk and very unreliable. And even if a high quality compression tester is used independent verification of claims would be needed. Anybody trained in the scientific method would know that.

In fact, demarpaint did compression testing after using MMO. But the people who are trying to promote a certain product belittle demarpaint with his 40 years of experience using MMO and belittle the experience of Trav, a trained mechanic, with Kreen. They belittle and minimize all of the anecdotal testimony of all of the people at this website. And try to claim that their compression testing of the product they are trying to promote is somehow 'scientific' testing. Compression testing done by one individual with a compression tester of unknown quality and with no independent verification by known neutral sources.

These are things that have needed to be said here for a long time. I respect the anecdotal testimony of people here unless and until we discover that a given individual cannot be trusted. I respect people here unless a given individual demonstrates he cannot be trusted.


And Mystic has it pretty much covered here.
Aren't we on this site to share our anecdotal experiences with various products,to learn from other members experiences,both good and bad.
To read about our fellow members observations and to then decide if we now want to try the particular product to see if it will help our perceived issue,just as it has for the member whom shared their experience.
As far as I'm concerned dermapaint is an expert in the use of mmo. If I have any question about using it in a particular application I will be messaging him.
Trav is an expert as far as vehicles go as far as I'm concerned as well. That man has shared countless helpful posts to members with various mechanical issues and he seems to pinpoint the issue,gives a detailed instruction on how to remedy the issue and when the poster returns to update it turns out that Trav gt a bullseye.
Mystic is one of the friendliest,most helpful members we have here. When those questions come up that have been asked a million times instead of just writing to try the search funtion(I'm guilty of this very thing) mystic helps the guy out,points him to the threads already filled with the info the poster inquired about,and will try to give the guy the condensed version of the answer.
So to even read this post from mystic who obviously is depending himself from some member who is attacking him and basically saying that because a product hasn't been extensively tested by an oem or one thing or another is to me absurd.
The products have been extensively tested,by our valued members,who as a whole is an absolute wealth of knowledge and experience.
Is it a scientific study,absolutely not. What it is is people,using their equipment,on their dime and discovering if a product being discussed works.
And that's enough for me. The fact that the members who make this forum great share their experience and knowledge with a simple carpenter like me,and anyone who asks,shows just how great this site can be at times.
These jerks who do nothing but chirp about how there isn't an oem stamp or its not approved or read your owners manual or yap that none of these experiences are actual scientific testing need to dig a real deep hole and fall in it.
Why even post in these threads if you have nothing to ad. Mystic happily shares his experiences and is promptly whipped for it,and the original poster runs for cover without much of an answer because those who do have experiences to share want even post because it ends up that the same few hecklers just insist on being jerks.
Its childish. Keyboard commandos sitting in their moms basements in their underwear,choosing to post an obvious unhelpful comment,rather than just move on to a thread where perhaps they can be helpful.
Its to the point that I bet these always negative posters are wearing diapers,so they don't miss their chance to be mean.
There are some great guys in here,and you guys know who you are,but there is a select,previously banned with new usernames few who insist on posting garbage.
The search function doesn't alway work but ignore sure does.

 

[Mystic]

Thanks Clevy. And what you have posted here are other things that needed to be said.

I do get very tired of the 'keyboard commandos.' The people who have nothing positive to add and just try to attack other people here whenever the opportunity to attack someone presents itself. Over the years we have had more and more of these strange people who come to a useful website like this and try to destroy it.

We have an increasing number of strange guys who seem to have little real interest in auto maintenance subjects but a mean streak and a desire to try to belittle somebody else.

And I for one am very, very, very tired of the strange guys who keep getting banned but come back with a new user name and apparently a new IP address. Over a period of time I have found out a few things about some of these people and without question a few of them have serious problems.

And than we have the product promoters who put down every other product and say that we must have scientific proof that a product works. As if scientific proof is going to be presented anytime soon for any of these oil cleaners and oil supplements. And the scientific proof for their product-a lousy compression test, done with a compression tester of unknown quality, done by one individual with an interest in promoting that product, with no independent verification from anybody else. Merely anecdotal testimony like the anecdotal testimony from anybody else here.

And then we have the guy who wants everybody to read their owner's manual, use only high quality motor oils changed at reasonable OCIs, and don't use any engine cleaners or oil supplements except for whatever engine flushes he feels are OEM approved or acceptable. Good advice probably for new car buyers with no mechanical ability, but not exactly the correct advice at a website where there are a lot of people who have done extensive car maintenance and are capable of moving beyond the basic stuff.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: morris
has anyone kept track of how many insults donald has put on MMO?


Nope, but he makes similar comments on every single MMO thread I've ever seen. And every other additive that comes up, generally.

EXCEPT AutoRX. How can that be? That he's actually endorsed.

He does drive a Jeep though.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: morris
has anyone kept track of how many insults donald has put on MMO?


Nope, but he makes similar comments on every single MMO thread I've ever seen. And every other additive that comes up, generally.

EXCEPT AutoRX. How can that be? That he's actually endorsed.

He does drive a Jeep though.

LOL How bad can a Jeep owner be?

 

[Mystic]

An engine sequence test is a test where a motor oil is run in a carefully selected test engine for a period of time under carefully controlled conditions to make sure that the motor oil being tested meets various requirements. There are different kinds of engine sequence tests. The tests are very expensive. You can find out more by typing in 'engine sequence testing' in a search engine like Bing or Google.

 

[EType]

Thanks Mystic

It's very confusing on google

Can you break it down for us in laymans terms?

Regards

 

[Mystic]

EType, I am not accusing you of anything, but are you trying to bait me? I certainly hope you are not Mori here for another one of his endless re-runs. Are you testing me to see just how detailed my knowledge is? I have been to the websites of oil companies, the API, the SAE, and others and I have found out a lot about engine sequence testing. To do proper justice to engine sequence testing would take a small book. I have publications from the SAE that I bought. API stands for American Petroleum Institute. SAE stands for Society of Automotive Engineers.

All motor oils go through engine sequence testing under carefully controlled conditions in special engines so that the motor oils can be certified for use. If a motor oil does not get tested it does not get certified. The tests are very expensive. And the tests can be tailored to obtain different information, such as determining how a given motor oil will keep an engine clean. Engine sequence testing can be considered scientific testing of motor oils because the test conditions are so carefully controlled.

Oil companies also test their motor oils in fleets of vehicles such as fleets of taxi cabs in New York City and so forth. Operation of a vehicle as a taxi is considered to be pretty severe service, because of extensive idling and extended operation.

This is a brief description. A detailed description of engine sequence testing and how oil companies test motor oils would require page after page of information.

Many years ago an engine sequence test for one motor oil cost $100,000.00 dollars. I have no idea how much the testing costs today-it might be a million dollars to test one motor oil. It should be obvious why we depend on anecdotal testimony from people here to find out about engine cleaners and oil supplements because few if any of these products are tested like certified and approved motor oils.

I will add that it is possible to do so called 'bench testing' of a motor oil, to be sure it has all of the additives it is supposed to have and that it is the correct viscosity and so forth. But a bench test is not as precise as an engine sequence test in an actual test engine.

 

[Mystic]

Instead of me trying to write several pages of information here, EType, maybe it would be a good idea for you to visit the websites of the API and the SAE. You are a really bright guy. You might even be interested in getting a few SAE publications. I have a few publications from the SAE myself.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I do get very tired of the 'keyboard commandos.' The people who have nothing positive to add and just try to attack other people here whenever the opportunity to attack someone presents itself. Over the years we have had more and more of these strange people who come to a useful website like this and try to destroy it.


I ended up requesting that the mods lock one of my threads and continued the discussion in private with several members here, because of exactly what you describe here.

For the record, for anyone who knows which thread I'm talking about, my engine still hasn't blown up and, although Mystic may not be willing to accept one guy's compression tests with a gauge of unknown quality, I will say that my compression numbers, both before and after, were repeated across several tests done on different days, with the "befores" all having showing similar results and the "afters" all showing consistent improvement. That, to me, is enough to remove "questionable quality" from the equation; even if the numbers themselves aren't 100% accurate, the gauge has proven itself to be consistent, so any improvement it shows *is* an improvement, even if "how much" can still be called into question. Actually, since the gauge has proven to be consistent, it's just a matter of comparing its readings to those of a "high quality" gauge at various known levels of compression, to build a calibration curve... The more you know, huh?

 

[Mystic]

What product were you testing? Were you testing MMO, Kreen, or Auto-RX Plus?

I want you to understand that I was calling into question the compression tests of one individual who likes to promote a product here and had no independent verification of his results. And he called people 'stupid' if they dared to question him.

If you have good compression test results on any product, including Auto-RX Plus, I would love to hear about it.

 

[EType]

Mystic, thank you again for your help. It's much appreciated.

Btw I found this statement by you a bit of an oxymoron, but I won't take offense as clearly there is some history on this site with you and "Mori" that has left some scars:

"EType, I am not accusing you of anything, but are you trying to bait me?"

 

[MrQuackers]

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers

+1