Originally Posted By: Trav
Some folks just can stay away. new name, new car, no owners manual.
LOL
LOL
Mechanic recommended MMO
- Thread starter EType
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Found a few 1qt/+-20% mix MMO used oil analysis on here. Some all aluminum, some cast iron block/aluminum head. The Honda used oil analysis would be of interest to the thin oil crowd.
Glad to be of help EType. Now if you suddenly decide to support other products for which there is no scientific evidence that they work, such as Auto-RX Plus, I am going to bring up what you had to say here. You are the one who had problems with anecdotal information.
We are having problems here with three individuals who keep coming back to this website after being banned but come back with new user names and apparently new IP addresses. These three individuals can't follow the simple rules here and keep getting themselves banned. Now I am not saying that you are one of these individuals, but we are awaiting the return of a guy who has been here with something like five or six different user names.
Do you know why I am here? I came across this website by accident when I was looking for something else. This is the best website I know of where people discuss motor oils, various automotive maintenance topics, things like that. I am not trying to fight with anybody. I prefer peace and quiet. I just want to be an ordinary member here trying to find out about which motor oil might be the best, which oil filter might be the best, etc. But in the time I have been here I have been attacked by various individuals who have some kind of problems and like to attack certain people here they disagree with. If somebody attacks me I will defend myself. And I believe in honesty and not some sort of silly little games. I don't have to hide behind different user names. I have had the same user name for 10 years.
And there are a lot of other people here like me who want to be able to enjoy this website and not have to fight with guys who have some kind of issues. And there are guys here who have issues and guys here who are trying to promote some product. I am not promoting anything. I am trying to find out what the best products are and I will try to use what the best products are at the best price.
I have seen some guys like demarpaint get attacked here-again and again. Now I have never met demarpaint but I have enjoyed several PMs with him and to me he seems like an intelligent, decent guy. He gets attacked merely because he likes MMO. The guy has almost 40 years of experience using MMO and I think that is valuable experience. I know of an attack on demarpaint that was completely out of line. I am not going to discuss it-he can discuss it if he wants to.
Another guy who has been attacked here is Trav, a very intelligent German guy who is an auto mechanic.
I was surprised in the past by some of the silly attacks on me here but I have a lot of experience now.
We are having problems here with three individuals who keep coming back to this website after being banned but come back with new user names and apparently new IP addresses. These three individuals can't follow the simple rules here and keep getting themselves banned. Now I am not saying that you are one of these individuals, but we are awaiting the return of a guy who has been here with something like five or six different user names.
Do you know why I am here? I came across this website by accident when I was looking for something else. This is the best website I know of where people discuss motor oils, various automotive maintenance topics, things like that. I am not trying to fight with anybody. I prefer peace and quiet. I just want to be an ordinary member here trying to find out about which motor oil might be the best, which oil filter might be the best, etc. But in the time I have been here I have been attacked by various individuals who have some kind of problems and like to attack certain people here they disagree with. If somebody attacks me I will defend myself. And I believe in honesty and not some sort of silly little games. I don't have to hide behind different user names. I have had the same user name for 10 years.
And there are a lot of other people here like me who want to be able to enjoy this website and not have to fight with guys who have some kind of issues. And there are guys here who have issues and guys here who are trying to promote some product. I am not promoting anything. I am trying to find out what the best products are and I will try to use what the best products are at the best price.
I have seen some guys like demarpaint get attacked here-again and again. Now I have never met demarpaint but I have enjoyed several PMs with him and to me he seems like an intelligent, decent guy. He gets attacked merely because he likes MMO. The guy has almost 40 years of experience using MMO and I think that is valuable experience. I know of an attack on demarpaint that was completely out of line. I am not going to discuss it-he can discuss it if he wants to.
Another guy who has been attacked here is Trav, a very intelligent German guy who is an auto mechanic.
I was surprised in the past by some of the silly attacks on me here but I have a lot of experience now.
Hi Mystic
For the sake of clarification, I will state again that I have no issue with anecdotal information. I will take all the information I can get hold of and use it, with appropriate weighting.
I also do not doubt the accounts where MMO achieved a result.
In my research so far, the opinion on this board that has the most weight is Molakule who you mentioned also, and who did not feel MMO had anything to add to oil.
I also understand it will thin oil and I would be worried about running a lower viscosity than requires especially seeing we are already apparently running the thinnest oils due to CAFE.
And of course, perhaps the most important opinion comes from auto and oil manufacturers who recommend strongly against additives to oil.
On fuel system cleaning, there is not only an effective approved alternative called Techron, it is added to gas sold by Chevron. How much more approved and scientifically validated can you get?
For the sake of clarification, I will state again that I have no issue with anecdotal information. I will take all the information I can get hold of and use it, with appropriate weighting.
I also do not doubt the accounts where MMO achieved a result.
In my research so far, the opinion on this board that has the most weight is Molakule who you mentioned also, and who did not feel MMO had anything to add to oil.
I also understand it will thin oil and I would be worried about running a lower viscosity than requires especially seeing we are already apparently running the thinnest oils due to CAFE.
And of course, perhaps the most important opinion comes from auto and oil manufacturers who recommend strongly against additives to oil.
On fuel system cleaning, there is not only an effective approved alternative called Techron, it is added to gas sold by Chevron. How much more approved and scientifically validated can you get?
Originally Posted By: EType
Hi Mystic
For the sake of clarification, I will state again that I have no issue with anecdotal information. I will take all the information I can get hold of and use it, with appropriate weighting.
I also do not doubt the accounts where MMO achieved a result.
In my research so far, the opinion on this board that has the most weight is Molakule who you mentioned also, and who did not feel MMO had anything to add to oil.
I also understand it will thin oil and I would be worried about running a lower viscosity than requires especially seeing we are already apparently running the thinnest oils due to CAFE.
And of course, perhaps the most important opinion comes from auto and oil manufacturers who recommend strongly against additives to oil.
On fuel system cleaning, there is not only an effective approved alternative called Techron, it is added to gas sold by Chevron. How much more approved and scientifically validated can you get?
How well does techron clean crankcase sludge?
Use what you want to use. Not sure anyone here cares. They do care enough to share their personal experience with different things.
As far as mmo thinning oil consider the temp oil achieves. I doubt very much that the solvents last to long before evaporation and I can tell you in my 5.0 mustang it wasn't more than 300 miles or so before I couldn't tell it was there,except the extreme blackening of the oil.
I can say with 1000 miles on the oil in it now its still almost clear and difficult to see on the dipstick.
And surprisingly enough the car runs great. Wow
Hi Mystic
For the sake of clarification, I will state again that I have no issue with anecdotal information. I will take all the information I can get hold of and use it, with appropriate weighting.
I also do not doubt the accounts where MMO achieved a result.
In my research so far, the opinion on this board that has the most weight is Molakule who you mentioned also, and who did not feel MMO had anything to add to oil.
I also understand it will thin oil and I would be worried about running a lower viscosity than requires especially seeing we are already apparently running the thinnest oils due to CAFE.
And of course, perhaps the most important opinion comes from auto and oil manufacturers who recommend strongly against additives to oil.
On fuel system cleaning, there is not only an effective approved alternative called Techron, it is added to gas sold by Chevron. How much more approved and scientifically validated can you get?
How well does techron clean crankcase sludge?
Use what you want to use. Not sure anyone here cares. They do care enough to share their personal experience with different things.
As far as mmo thinning oil consider the temp oil achieves. I doubt very much that the solvents last to long before evaporation and I can tell you in my 5.0 mustang it wasn't more than 300 miles or so before I couldn't tell it was there,except the extreme blackening of the oil.
I can say with 1000 miles on the oil in it now its still almost clear and difficult to see on the dipstick.
And surprisingly enough the car runs great. Wow
Originally Posted By: Trav
Some folks just can stay away. new name, new car, no owners manual.
Hehehe. Markstock back again maybe.
Hehehe. Markstock back again maybe.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Some folks just can stay away. new name, new car, no owners manual.
This site attracts them like flies!!!
This site attracts them like flies!!!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Trav
Some folks just can stay away. new name, new car, no owners manual.
This site attracts them like flies!!!
It sure does, then they get swatted and come back again. LOL
Originally Posted By: Trav
This site attracts them like flies!!!
It sure does, then they get swatted and come back again. LOL
My word, MMO certainly gets people emotional and defensive and maybe a little paranoid. It does warm you not to inhale it!
But seriously gentlemen, I think you are suffering from a case of mistaken identity. But do not worry, I won't talk about MMO again.
I apologize for any distress I caused, particularly to you Mystic who I totally acknowledge and thank for the advice you tried to give me.
But seriously gentlemen, I think you are suffering from a case of mistaken identity. But do not worry, I won't talk about MMO again.
I apologize for any distress I caused, particularly to you Mystic who I totally acknowledge and thank for the advice you tried to give me.
Originally Posted By: EType
Just looked up the items listed as hazardous on the MMO MSDS
o-Dichlorobenzene CAS 95-50-1
"is incompatible with aluminium and aluminium alloys ...... attacks some forms of plastics, rubber and coatings"
As for the mineral spirits / stodard solvent CAS 64742-52-5, it has a flashpoint of 51c and is extremely hazardous. It is recommended to wear protective clothing, gloves, eye/face protection.
It is harmful by inhalation.
Gosh..I wish I had known. I've been using MMO in my 1974 Laverda 1000 since the 70's. Aluminium in the carbs and manifolds, plastic fuel lines, rubber "O" rings in the carbs and plastic in the petcocks and banjo fitting fuel filters. Last time I rebuilt the carbs was 2005. I don't think it really harms anything.... really..a good UCL in olden times (original pistons/rings and valves/guides I installed back in 1976 for competition) that I now use MMO because of ethanol in our fuels. Yes, don't try and breath any MMO..
Just looked up the items listed as hazardous on the MMO MSDS
o-Dichlorobenzene CAS 95-50-1
"is incompatible with aluminium and aluminium alloys ...... attacks some forms of plastics, rubber and coatings"
As for the mineral spirits / stodard solvent CAS 64742-52-5, it has a flashpoint of 51c and is extremely hazardous. It is recommended to wear protective clothing, gloves, eye/face protection.
It is harmful by inhalation.
Gosh..I wish I had known. I've been using MMO in my 1974 Laverda 1000 since the 70's. Aluminium in the carbs and manifolds, plastic fuel lines, rubber "O" rings in the carbs and plastic in the petcocks and banjo fitting fuel filters. Last time I rebuilt the carbs was 2005. I don't think it really harms anything.... really..a good UCL in olden times (original pistons/rings and valves/guides I installed back in 1976 for competition) that I now use MMO because of ethanol in our fuels. Yes, don't try and breath any MMO..
^^ Wow, you've got me beat, I've been using it in my 88 E-150 since new.^^ Nothing self destructed there either.
^^^Times a dozen. I can remember my Grandfather pouring mmo into his tractors on the farm!
If it was so bad it seems we might have found out by now...
If it was so bad it seems we might have found out by now...
I'm still in aw of the folks that believe if something doesn't cause any harm, it is doing good. That is some blind faith right there.
I had a great great uncle who lived to be 105 years old. His advice to everyone that asked how to live so long was to smoke at least 5 cigs a day (a pack is better when you can do it). He practiced this healthy living regiment his entire life starting at 14 years old.
The proof was in the pudding, but I just couldn't take his advice for some reason. Maybe I'm a silly nay-sayer.
I had a great great uncle who lived to be 105 years old. His advice to everyone that asked how to live so long was to smoke at least 5 cigs a day (a pack is better when you can do it). He practiced this healthy living regiment his entire life starting at 14 years old.
The proof was in the pudding, but I just couldn't take his advice for some reason. Maybe I'm a silly nay-sayer.
There is just one little problem. People are not just saying that MMO does not do any harm. They are also saying that it seems to do good. Several people have said that MMO seemed to stop ticking noises from a lifter or was able to free a sticking ring, etc.
So the next step is we will demand scientific proof. We will not accept anecdotal testimony. That is not good enough. We will accept compression testing for a promoted product here, because there is supposed to be some magic associated with compression testing. It does not matter in the case of the promoted product that a compression test is not necessarily accurate and the results can be easily altered depending on the quality of the compression tester, and it does not matter that we have no independent testing aside from the compression testing done by one of the promoting members. There is one standard of proof form a product like MMO, and another standard of proof for the promoted product.
So the next time people try to push a promoted product here, since we all demand this scientific testing, I want results from a high quality recording compression tester, and I want independent verification from another bitgo member. After all, we cannot accept anecdotal testimony, right? And anecdotal testimony would include testimony from a member here promoting a product and saying that he had done compression testing. We do not know the quality of the compression tester, and we have no independent verification of the compression results.
So the next step is we will demand scientific proof. We will not accept anecdotal testimony. That is not good enough. We will accept compression testing for a promoted product here, because there is supposed to be some magic associated with compression testing. It does not matter in the case of the promoted product that a compression test is not necessarily accurate and the results can be easily altered depending on the quality of the compression tester, and it does not matter that we have no independent testing aside from the compression testing done by one of the promoting members. There is one standard of proof form a product like MMO, and another standard of proof for the promoted product.
So the next time people try to push a promoted product here, since we all demand this scientific testing, I want results from a high quality recording compression tester, and I want independent verification from another bitgo member. After all, we cannot accept anecdotal testimony, right? And anecdotal testimony would include testimony from a member here promoting a product and saying that he had done compression testing. We do not know the quality of the compression tester, and we have no independent verification of the compression results.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
There is just one little problem. People are not just saying that MMO does not do any harm. They are also saying that it seems to do good. Several people have said that MMO seemed to stop ticking noises from a lifter or was able to free a sticking ring, etc.
So the next step is we will demand scientific proof. We will not accept anecdotal testimony. That is not good enough. We will accept compression testing for a promoted product here, because there is supposed to be some magic associated with compression testing. It does not matter in the case of the promoted product that a compression test is not necessarily accurate and the results can be easily altered depending on the quality of the compression tester, and it does not matter that we have no independent testing aside from the compression testing done by one of the promoting members. There is one standard of proof form a product like MMO, and another standard of proof for the promoted product.
So the next time people try to push a promoted product here, since we all demand this scientific testing, I want results from a high quality recording compression tester, and I want independent verification from another bitgo member. After all, we cannot accept anecdotal testimony, right? And anecdotal testimony would include testimony from a member here promoting a product and saying that he had done compression testing. We do not know the quality of the compression tester, and we have no independent verification of the compression results.
Sounds like some rational thinking for once. Well done. Poorly done measureable results beat non-measured results every day of the week.
There is just one little problem. People are not just saying that MMO does not do any harm. They are also saying that it seems to do good. Several people have said that MMO seemed to stop ticking noises from a lifter or was able to free a sticking ring, etc.
So the next step is we will demand scientific proof. We will not accept anecdotal testimony. That is not good enough. We will accept compression testing for a promoted product here, because there is supposed to be some magic associated with compression testing. It does not matter in the case of the promoted product that a compression test is not necessarily accurate and the results can be easily altered depending on the quality of the compression tester, and it does not matter that we have no independent testing aside from the compression testing done by one of the promoting members. There is one standard of proof form a product like MMO, and another standard of proof for the promoted product.
So the next time people try to push a promoted product here, since we all demand this scientific testing, I want results from a high quality recording compression tester, and I want independent verification from another bitgo member. After all, we cannot accept anecdotal testimony, right? And anecdotal testimony would include testimony from a member here promoting a product and saying that he had done compression testing. We do not know the quality of the compression tester, and we have no independent verification of the compression results.
Sounds like some rational thinking for once. Well done. Poorly done measureable results beat non-measured results every day of the week.
Excuse me-are you defending the compression testing done by an individual who promotes a certain product here? What do you mean by poorly done measurable results beats non-measured results? That is not what I said. I will not accept the poorly done testing either.
Various people have promoted products at this website and have put down the anecdotal testimony of people who have said that they had positive results from MMO, Kreen, or whatever. We are supposed to believe the compression results of the person promoting a certain product. Well, the compression testing, done without independent verification, with a compression tester of unknown quality is also anecdotal testimony.
The next time these people make an attempt to promote a certain product here with their compression tests, I want to see a high quality recording compression tester used, and I want to see independent verification of the results by at least two members here that I can trust. Since you demand scientific testing, we will strive for scientific testing for ALL PRODUCTS, and not just MMO and Kreen.
If MMO or Kreen can truly free sticking rings I bet those products could potentially pass the recording compression test also.
Various people have promoted products at this website and have put down the anecdotal testimony of people who have said that they had positive results from MMO, Kreen, or whatever. We are supposed to believe the compression results of the person promoting a certain product. Well, the compression testing, done without independent verification, with a compression tester of unknown quality is also anecdotal testimony.
The next time these people make an attempt to promote a certain product here with their compression tests, I want to see a high quality recording compression tester used, and I want to see independent verification of the results by at least two members here that I can trust. Since you demand scientific testing, we will strive for scientific testing for ALL PRODUCTS, and not just MMO and Kreen.
If MMO or Kreen can truly free sticking rings I bet those products could potentially pass the recording compression test also.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
There is just one little problem. People are not just saying that MMO does not do any harm. They are also saying that it seems to do good. Several people have said that MMO seemed to stop ticking noises from a lifter or was able to free a sticking ring, etc.
Seems? Top notch unequivocal statement there
There is just one little problem. People are not just saying that MMO does not do any harm. They are also saying that it seems to do good. Several people have said that MMO seemed to stop ticking noises from a lifter or was able to free a sticking ring, etc.
Seems? Top notch unequivocal statement there
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I don't care about your little remarks Trajan. You and others have put down the anecdotal testimony of many people here who dare to praise a product like MMO (which you also praised in the past) or Kreen. But then we are supposed to believe compression tests done with a compression tester of unknown quality by one individual who likes to promote a product here.
To me, the anecdotal testimony of so many people is valuable. To me, the testimony of someone like demarpaint concerning MMO is valuable because he has almost 40 years of experience using the product. But you and others have no use for such anecdotal testimony.
I submit that testimony from ONE INDIVIDUAL, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is also anecdotal testimony. We have only the word of that one person and we have no knowledge of the quality (or lack of quality) of the compression tester used. But you do not put down that anecdotal testimony, do you?
I suggest a level playing field where every product has to meet the same levels of proof. Fair enough?
And if that is not acceptable and if we are supposed to take at face value what really amounts to anecdotal testimony for the promoted product, then we should also be allowed to accept the anecdotal testimony for products like MMO and Kreen.
Personally I can hardly wait for somebody to actually have a before and after compression test with a quality compression tester of MMO or Kreen. Because if one or both of those products are able to free cylinder rings my bet is that the compression would increase.
To me, the anecdotal testimony of so many people is valuable. To me, the testimony of someone like demarpaint concerning MMO is valuable because he has almost 40 years of experience using the product. But you and others have no use for such anecdotal testimony.
I submit that testimony from ONE INDIVIDUAL, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is also anecdotal testimony. We have only the word of that one person and we have no knowledge of the quality (or lack of quality) of the compression tester used. But you do not put down that anecdotal testimony, do you?
I suggest a level playing field where every product has to meet the same levels of proof. Fair enough?
And if that is not acceptable and if we are supposed to take at face value what really amounts to anecdotal testimony for the promoted product, then we should also be allowed to accept the anecdotal testimony for products like MMO and Kreen.
Personally I can hardly wait for somebody to actually have a before and after compression test with a quality compression tester of MMO or Kreen. Because if one or both of those products are able to free cylinder rings my bet is that the compression would increase.
As a former chemistry professor (I am now in Life Sciences) and experienced researcher, I of course love to see quantitative data that rests on good stats. But there is a lot in the world which resists such analysis, due to inherent difficulties or lack of money. Many scientists avoid addressing a number of interesting and meaningful questions simply because they cannot figure out how to get at the problem in the standard fashion, with all the statistical trimmings. Too bad for all of all!
In science, and especially medicine, we often need to address problems with only a limited database. Not the ideal, not my preference, but sometimes anecdotal evidence is what we have to go on. This is where artfulness comes in. Use your judgment. This applies to MSDS. Deal with them all the time, remember when they were hard to obtain. The composition of MMO suggests to me that one avoid skin contact or ingestion. As for it harming aluminum, the MSDS is not fine-tuned to help us judge at what concentration, and length of exposure, this would be of concern in an engine. I suspect Al engine parts are exposed to greater challenges!
I use MMO on a limited basis. Don't go around chronically worrying about it, or I wouldn't use it. If you need to use products which meet certain evidential standards, you are going to live in a quite circumscribed world. Long use in pharmacy has led to many components and products being termed GRAS -Generally Recognized As Safe. This acknowledges that accumulated anecdotal evidence is not without value.
Your mileage may -indeed will- vary, so to each his own. But by all means, let us share our "anecdotes".
In science, and especially medicine, we often need to address problems with only a limited database. Not the ideal, not my preference, but sometimes anecdotal evidence is what we have to go on. This is where artfulness comes in. Use your judgment. This applies to MSDS. Deal with them all the time, remember when they were hard to obtain. The composition of MMO suggests to me that one avoid skin contact or ingestion. As for it harming aluminum, the MSDS is not fine-tuned to help us judge at what concentration, and length of exposure, this would be of concern in an engine. I suspect Al engine parts are exposed to greater challenges!
I use MMO on a limited basis. Don't go around chronically worrying about it, or I wouldn't use it. If you need to use products which meet certain evidential standards, you are going to live in a quite circumscribed world. Long use in pharmacy has led to many components and products being termed GRAS -Generally Recognized As Safe. This acknowledges that accumulated anecdotal evidence is not without value.
Your mileage may -indeed will- vary, so to each his own. But by all means, let us share our "anecdotes".
Here we go again. I posted compression results a few years back, and had MMO successfully improve compression, in a 250 I6 engine we used in a boat. There are several products that can improve compression, either by cleaning up the rings, or just by being thick. A few squirts of oil shot into a cylinder can improve compression in many instances too. Compression results are a small part of the puzzle. There will never be any undisputed scientific evidence with any of these products. Anything that appears to have scientific proof can easily be torn apart. So all we have is testimony. Those who choose to believe it might benefit, those who don't believe it, shouldn't try the products. At the end of the day, who cares?
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