Mechanic recommended MMO

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There are a few people here who maybe could answer your questions. Molakule here has been involved in formulation of lubricates. But even if all of us here were lubrication chemists you have to realize that the people who develop a product might not be willing to discuss that product in detail. I think that should be obvious. There are some highly skilled people who come to this website including some people with degrees in chemistry, computer technology, etc. But I am sure nobody here was involved in the development of MMO and even if they had been they probably would not be allowed to discuss in detail exactly how it works. If you go to the Lubegard website they discuss in general terms how Lubegard technology works. Few companies will disclose trade secrets.

And I doubt very seriously if you will be able to obtain detailed scientific documentation on any of these products, regardless if you are talking about MMO, Kreen, Auto-RX Plus, or whatever. Why should a company be willing to disclose detailed information about their products that might make it possible for somebody to copy their technology?

If you have doubts about the technology used in these products I would guess that Kano Labs, the developer of Kreen, has some ability to develop chemical products. And in the case of Lubegard products a chemist who had worked for Exxon was involved in the development of their products.

If you are worried about the solvents in MMO having some undesirable effect on motor oil, engine seals, or engine parts my advice is-don't use MMO! MMO has been in use since 1923. If the solvents in MMO wrecked automobile engines I think we would have some evidence of that by now. It is not as if MMO is some rare product. I can buy MMO at my local Wal-Mart Store.

This is a website that deals with automotive subjects and maintenance, discussion about motor oils, oil additives, oil filters, etc. We are not back engineering products developed by some company. Mostly you will find anecdotal evidence here about how products work. I doubt anybody here has the funding necessary to have a product studied in detail by a team of chemists.

You seem to place no value on anecdotal evidence. Well, I personally think 40 years of experience with MMO, such as demarpaint possesses, counts for something.

You came to this website saying that your mechanic had suggested you use MMO. But you never said anything about what kind of car you had, what if any mechanical problems you were experiencing, and why your mechanic suggested you use MMO. Now you are demanding that we supply some detailed chemical discussion about exactly how the solvents in MMO interact with motor oil, engine parts, etc. I don't know what you really want. If you are anti-MMO, than I suggest you simply not use it. Stick to OEM approved motor oils, etc. Frankly, I have tried various engine cleaners and oil supplements but I am not extremely pro-engine cleaner and pro-oil supplement myself. And right now I am only using a little MMO in my lawnmower. It still seems to run.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Here's my put on MMO's MSDS:

70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil)

Serves mostly as base oil.


29% Mineral Spirits

General cleaner and solvent.


38 parts per million (ppm) Boron

Mild AW/EP agent, friction reducer


900 ppm Phosporous

AW/EP agent


1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene

A very good cleaner/solvent for varnish.


1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene

A very good cleaner/solvent for varnish.


Oil of wintergreen - for the scent

Oil of Wintergreen is in there solely for the SCENT to mask solvent smell. Not enough in there to aid lubricity.


Red Dye - for the color
- well this one just colors the stuff

For Sure.

Mostly lube with some cleaning ability. The lube is similar to what you would put in a squeaky door. Will thin the oil some, clean sticky varnish and sludge a little.
 
EType you said that your mechanic recommended the use of MMO in the first place. If that is true, then you need to ask him why he recommended MMO.

Since you have no respect for the experience of people here who have used MMO for a long time, you might want to send a sample of MMO to Blackstone Labs for a VOA. They could give you a description of what the product contains and perhaps even tell you something about how the product would work in an engine. Maybe ask a few questions when you send in the sample.
 
Just looked up the items listed as hazardous on the MMO MSDS

o-Dichlorobenzene CAS 95-50-1

"is incompatible with aluminium and aluminium alloys ...... attacks some forms of plastics, rubber and coatings"

As for the mineral spirits / stodard solvent CAS 64742-52-5, it has a flashpoint of 51c and is extremely hazardous. It is recommended to wear protective clothing, gloves, eye/face protection.

It is harmful by inhalation.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The lube is similar to what you would put in a squeaky door.


A quick bit of research suggests otherwise
 
I think it is obvious that you have reservations about MMO EType. You feel apparently that it might damage engine parts or seals or affect the ability of the motor oil to lubricate, or you feel it might be dangerous to yourself.

If I was that worried about a product I would not use it. Stick to regular motor oils and if you really do have a mechanic that recommended MMO for whatever reason tell him you want a mechanical repair to the problem and not to use MMO. Pretty simple, right?
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic

Since you have no respect for the experience of people here who have used MMO for a long time, you might want to send a sample of MMO to Blackstone Labs for a VOA. They could give you a description of what the product contains and perhaps even tell you something about how the product would work in an engine. Maybe ask a few questions when you send in the sample.


Firstly Mystic, I have said many times "Thank you" when you have replied to me.

I do not believe I have been disrespectful but if you feel that way, I apologize.

Secondly, a quick bit of research has uncovered part of what I needed to know about MMO from a scientific perspective.

I will add that knowledge to the vast amount of anecdotal information available on BITOG.

In a previous post you said that BITOG is a place where "we are not back engineering products. Mostly you will find anecdotal evidence".

That may be your perspective but may I respectfully suggest you look at some of the educational articles on the home page that are anything but anecdotal.
 
Those are great questions to pose to the mechanic, certainly he's had success with the product and can give you all the pros, cons, and reasons why he's used it. I'd be interested in his reply. None of the negative side effects have ever been posted here, and I have a feeling it is because all of the levels of those harmful chemicals are used in amounts that are harmless. Similar to how blood thinners are used for rat poison, and yet are very effective in keeping people alive who have problems with blood clots or suffered from a stroke. Sadly no one here has the scientific evidence you want, so you might have to find that data somewhere else.
 
Originally Posted By: EType
Originally Posted By: Mystic

Since you have no respect for the experience of people here who have used MMO for a long time, you might want to send a sample of MMO to Blackstone Labs for a VOA. They could give you a description of what the product contains and perhaps even tell you something about how the product would work in an engine. Maybe ask a few questions when you send in the sample.


Firstly Mystic, I have said many times "Thank you" when you have replied to me.

I do not believe I have been disrespectful but if you feel that way, I apologize.

Secondly, a quick bit of research has uncovered part of what I needed to know about MMO from a scientific perspective.

I will add that knowledge to the vast amount of anecdotal information available on BITOG.

In a previous post you said that BITOG is a place where "we are not back engineering products. Mostly you will find anecdotal evidence".

That may be your perspective but may I respectfully suggest you look at some of the educational articles on the home page that are anything but anecdotal.


You're supposed to take all anecdotal stories as a gospel truth that is beyond question
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Those are great questions to pose to the mechanic, certainly he's had success with the product and can give you all the pros, cons, and reasons why he's used it. I'd be interested in his reply. None of the negative side effects have ever been posted here, and I have a feeling it is because all of the levels of those harmful chemicals are used in amounts that are harmless. Similar to how blood thinners are used for rat poison, and yet are very effective in keeping people alive who have problems with blood clots or suffered from a stroke. Sadly no one here has the scientific evidence you want, so you might have to find that data somewhere else.


Thanks demarpaint. The problem I have asking a mechanic such questions is that again its anecdotal. I can't ask him to give me statistically significant information.

Mystic mentioned doing a VOA and I found a great scientific thread on that topic on BITOG:

The following stood out for me

Originally Posted By: Molakule

As I have questioned many times, in the context of motor oil additives, what chemical compound do you think we formulators have purposely left out of fully formulated motor oils, to require you to buy OTC or third party additives?
confused2.gif



Together with the fact that manufacturers do not recommend MMO while approving something like Techron, as well as finding that the cleaning ingredient in MMO is not compatible with aluminium, aluminium alloys, plastic, rubber, coatings, leads me to believe it does not make sense to take the risk.
 
Sometimes anecdotal stories are all a person can go by.
smile.gif
If that's not good enough then you have to move on to a product backed up by scientific facts and undisputed scientific evidence that it works. If any of you guys find that in an engine cleaning additive post the link I'd love to give the stuff a try.
 
Originally Posted By: EType
leads me to believe it does not make sense to take the risk.


There lies "your" answer. By all means don't use the product.
 
I've asked the same question. (Actually just a copy/paste.) And never got an answer. I suppose that without knowing what is in the add pack, or what is not, it can't be answered.

But I stopped using third party OTC adds because I *can't* answer.

But there one other thing I can say. Just because something like MMO hasn't killed any engines, that does not mean that it has extended the life span either.
 
Excuse me EType but I was here when Bob did all kinds of tests on various products such as Lucas oil supplement. I might know a little bit more about this website than you since I have been here 10 years.

You came here with a story about how MMO had been recommended by your mechanic. But you will not supply any information to anybody here as to what kind of car you drive, what sort of mechanical problems you were having, if any, and why your mechanic had recommended MMO. Kind of difficult for anybody here to help you. It would be sort of like a mechanic trying to fix a car he is not allowed to see.

Then you expect people here to give you a detailed description about exactly how the solvents in MMO affect engine parts, motor oil, and seals. And then you list the ingredients in MMO and discuss how those chemicals might be hazardous to aluminum or people.

My impression is that you had no real intention of using MMO in the first place. Maybe you wanted to prove some kind of point about MMO or whatever. I don't know. I gave you good advice. If you are that nervous about a product like MMO then do not use it. I am a straight up kind of guy and I take people at what they say and expect them to be straight up with me. I hope you are not a certain individual who keeps getting banned here and keeps coming back with a new user name. Everybody here can see that I went out of my way to help you.

Like demarpaint said if anybody here knows about an engine cleaner or oil supplement that is backed up by major scientific documentation please let us know. Most of these engine cleaners and oil supplements have little to no scientific documentation and frankly about 99% of them I would never use. Now I know that you have no use for anecdotal information but in my personal experience I have tried supplements that did work, regardless if you care to believe what I say or not. And I think demarpaint's almost 40 years of experience using MMO counts for something. He should at least know if MMO causes any problems in an engine.
 
Thank you Mystic. The information you provided was helpful.

It is great that you have been here 10 years. You advised me to get a VOA on MMO but I found one that was already done and some good scientific discussion on the topic. Have you seen the same thread? I'm sure you have as you've been here 10 years.

It appears that a knowledgeable chemist on this site, Molakule, does not understand what is missing in oil that is provided by MMO.

Car manufacturers also advise against using non approved additives in oil.

I also understand that MMO changes the viscosity of oil so I would need to possibly use a non approved oil in order to have the correct final viscosity.

And it appears that MMO contains an ingredient that is incompatible with aluminium and aluminium alloys.

So on the above evidence, discovered since starting this thread, I have decided not to use MMO in oil.

With regards to usage in fuel, Techron is an approved cleaner, while MMO is not and contains ingredients incompatible with rubber, plastics and coatings.

Again, it does not seem prudent to use MMO in the fuel system.

Thank you for all you input Mystic. It helped me get to the right answer.
 
I have not seen every thread at this website. That would be kind of difficult. I would probably need a team of people to help me because there are a lot of threads.

I am glad you are taking my advice. If anybody is extremely nervous about some product they should not use it. You can't go too wrong in using only approved motor oils, oil filters, etc.

Some people follow that route and that is fine. Read the owner's manual, use only approved motor oils and other products changed at reasonable OCIs, and don't use any non-approved engine cleaners or oil supplements.

Some people do the above and they also are willing to try a few products, especially if a very large number of apparently intelligent and logical guys have had good experience with certain products. I certainly believe in using approved motor oils and all of that. But I have been willing to try a few products that did not have OEM approval.

To each his own path.
 
Originally Posted By: Mystic

Like demarpaint said if anybody here knows about an engine cleaner or oil supplement that is backed up by major scientific documentation please let us know. Most of these engine cleaners and oil supplements have little to no scientific documentation and frankly about 99% of them I would never use. Now I know that you have no use for anecdotal information but in my personal experience I have tried supplements that did work, regardless if you care to believe what I say or not. And I think demarpaint's almost 40 years of experience using MMO counts for something. He should at least know if MMO causes any problems in an engine.


I thought it was worth answering this particular part of your post for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, we all know of engine cleaners that are backed up by science and those are the cleaners that are added to oil already.

Secondly, I never anywhere said MMO didn't work and I don't know why you think I don't believe your anecdotal information. As part of my decision on whether to use MMO, I was simply looking for scientific proof that it was safe. I was in no way looking to debunk any anecdotal information.

What you helped me to find was that respected chemists on this site do not see any reason to use it, that it contains ingredients that are not compatible with aluminium, aluminium alloys, plastics, rubber and coatings, and that no manufacturer approves its use.

Again thank you for helping me to discover that.
 
I wonder if your mechanic wanted you to use the stuff to ruin your engine and fuel system so he'd have more work repairing and replacing parts. In this day and age you never know.
 
I've got MMO in the engine right now. I bought an '04 Prius (87K) a month ago. The last owner had the oil changed just before I bought it. Not sure what kind of oil there is in there now but it was clean as a whistle. After 1500 miles the oil was still perfectly clean. I drained 3/4 of a quart out and refilled the same amount with MMO. The oil started at once to gradually darken. After having it in there now for about a thousand miles (yes, I drive a lot as a delivery driver) The oil, I would say is fairly dark. I'll be changing it tomorrow on my day off. I would conclude that MMO has done a pretty good job at gradually cleaning off some varnish/deposits that this nine year old car has accumulated, and am happy with the results.

One other thing that I noticed was when I put MMO in was what appeared to be a slight increase in power and smoothness. Whether this effect was real or placebo I can't say for sure, but it 'felt' better...

My 2 cents...
 
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