Manual Transmissions Soon Gone

[TiGeo]

If they remove the option you just swap one in.

My 82 diesel suburban had a 5sp stick which gave near a 30mpg experience, well worth it

Modern automatic Xmsn cars scoring better on the EPA test is due to the test being flawed.

The lack of demand is self fulfilling in this country because it can cost millions extra on government crash and certification to offer multiple drivetrains .

I started with automatics but can’t own one anymore, they are too unreliable and offer poor economy. The only exception I would make would be hybrid or EV.

Modern autos including CVT and DCTs simply have much broader range of gears than an average 6-speed. The slush-box auto in our Atlas has 8 speeds...many have 9 or 10. It's just math effectively that they will be more efficient...not a flawed test.

"they are too unreliable and offer poor economy" - can you back that up? Take my '13 Focus. Two transmissions...6-spd DCT and a 5-spd manual (what I have). DCT beats it be 1 mph overall. This isn't made up. Unreliable? Modern autos are plenty durable. I don't disagree however that a basic manual is very durable and inexpensive to maintain with the biggest cost a new clutch if you own it long enough vs. a very expensive auto rebuild/replacement but most folks arne't keeping vehicles long enough to care.

 

[Wolf359]

I have always been intrigued about something that Trav mentioned. A bare bones MT Mercedes Benz Diesel is obtainable in Europe.

MBUSA dictates what options will be available in the states so there's no manual E class and for a while they didn't do 4 cylinders either. They also dictate things like have either a sunroof or a panorama sunroof, no sunroof isn't an option but it's an option in Europe. Only probably with your bare bones diesel from Europe is that it would probably never be allowed to be imported because it probably doesn't meet many US rules.

 

[AutoMechanic]

I don’t mind a manual transmission but it’s just not as convenient anymore. I have two manual vehicles the rest are automatics. I just sold one of my manual trucks last month. I choose not to drive my truck to work much because one thing it takes forever to get up to speed. I guess the 85HP engine doesn’t help lol. Plus where there is constant speed change where I have to drive thru and no shortage of bad drivers pulling out in front of you or flying past you I just don’t feel safe in something that underpowered and the crash ratings for those trucks aren’t the best either which is understandable. At work I constantly get called to go move something or someone else who is free. All of our porters can’t drive them. Certain techs aren’t allowed to drive any of the sports car types so if one of those come in it’s usually me or one other person that gets called to drive them. We had a brand new stick Camaro? I think it was come in and nobody could drive it because the clutch was so picky lol. Every single one of us that tried to drive it stalled. I enjoy when a manual Subaru comes in that I get to work on. I think it’s just everyone is lazy and wants automatics. And it’s like me and my dad were talking about the other night when I found a manual Blazer is it’s just so much more convenient in todays time to have an automatic a manual is an ok weekend toy or grocery getter but for daily nah. Plus it’s easy to roll back on a hill.

I bet many of you are surprised I say that as I typically like old stuff lol.

 

[TiGeo]

The test is the same protocol for manuals and automatics. As mentioned earlier, those 9 speed automatics will do better than a 5 speed. I have a 5 speed automatic in my 2008 Mercedes E350 and a 7 speed automatic in my 2011 E350. The gas mileage is about 2mpg better with the 7 speed automatic. It gets even better with the newer 9 speed automatics but that might be due to the direct injection engines. The 5 speed and the 7 speed use the same engine and have the same horsepower rating. Weight is similar but the 2011 with better gas mileage is about 50 pounds heavier. What exactly is the flaw in the testing? It's basically the same flaw as when automatics got worse mileage than the 5 speed mainly because those were 3 speed automatics and didn't have overdrive or lockup torque converters. Technology marches on.

Oh and you also can't do stoplight racing or brake launches with a stick as easily. Not that I really do them, but you can put your left foot on the brake and keep the right on the gas which saves you a half second so you can get the jump when the light turns green. Never really do a brake launch but I suppose you could rev up an automatic a little and then let go of the brake to get a slightly faster jump. Or let up the brake a little and give it a little roll and then punch the gas just as it goes green. Couldn't do it that well with a stick than with the automatic. It's just easy to do in an automatic.

Love launch control in my dual-clutch auto....spins up to 4K and when you let off the brake the clutches engage and off you go for a nice ~4 second 0-60. No way any manual is touching that in the same car.

 

[TiGeo]

MBUSA dictates what options will be available in the states so there's no manual E class and for a while they didn't do 4 cylinders either. They also dictate things like have either a sunroof or a panorama sunroof, no sunroof isn't an option but it's an option in Europe. Only probably with your bare bones diesel from Europe is that it would probably never be allowed to be imported because it probably doesn't meet many US rules.

B/c not many Americans want stripper BMWs and Mercs...those are a lux brand here but sure, in Europ cloth seat stick shift 3 series!

 

[TiGeo]

I don’t mind a manual transmission but it’s just not as convenient anymore. I have two manual vehicles the rest are automatics. I just sold one of my manual trucks last month. I choose not to drive my truck to work much because one thing it takes forever to get up to speed. I guess the 85HP engine doesn’t help lol. Plus where there is constant speed change where I have to drive thru and no shortage of bad drivers pulling out in front of you or flying past you I just don’t feel safe in something that underpowered and the crash ratings for those trucks aren’t the best either which is understandable. At work I constantly get called to go move something or someone else who is free. All of our porters can’t drive them. Certain techs aren’t allowed to drive any of the sports car types so if one of those come in it’s usually me or one other person that gets called to drive them. We had a brand new stick Camaro? I think it was come in and nobody could drive it because the clutch was so picky lol. Every single one of us that tried to drive it stalled. I enjoy when a manual Subaru comes in that I get to work on. I think it’s just everyone is lazy and wants automatics. And it’s like me and my dad were talking about the other night when I found a manual Blazer is it’s just so much more convenient in todays time to have an automatic a manual is an ok weekend toy or grocery getter but for daily nah. Plus it’s easy to roll back on a hill.

I bet many of you are surprised I say that as I typically like old stuff lol.

It's not about "lazy" - it's about why add that layer of complexity to driving when it's not necssary for average people? They want to get in their cute-tue and go to the grocery store. This isn't some visceral finding Jesus thing everytime they drive their car like it is for some.

 

[Wolf359]

B/c not many Americans want stripper BMWs and Mercs...those are a lux brand here but sure, in Europ cloth seat stick shift 3 series!

You'd be surprised how hard it is to find a loaded Mercedes E class. Took me 6 months of looking til I found one that was mostly loaded. Never even saw one that had one of the custom designo packages that's always mentioned. Real reason is that once you add up the options it was like an extra 13k over the base price and most cars only had 5-8k worth of options instead of 13k.

 

[TiGeo]

You'd be surprised how hard it is to find a loaded Mercedes E class. Took me 6 months of looking til I found one that was mostly loaded. Never even saw one that had one of the custom designo packages that's always mentioned. Real reason is that once you add up the options it was like an extra 13k over the base price and most cars only had 5-8k worth of options instead of 13k.

Same with BMW as I understand it - options get pricey. But nobody here is buying the fully stripped ones offered in other parts of the world....and dealers don't order them would be my guess.

 

[benjy]

manufacturers want "slush boxes" so they can control the engine easier + cheeper!! same reasoning on CVT's being cheeper to build!!! the only automatics i ever owned were in older classic cars where choices were slim, otherwise everything is a manual for sure!!

 

[Cruisin'n5thgear]

Can't do it. One of the other reasons everybody buys an auto is because sticks aren't available. Even if they still make them in a model, dealer's won't order them.
It took us 3 years and a nationwide (well, at least west of the Mississippi) dealer search to find the wife's new Mazda 6 in an M6. In the summer of 2017 there were a sum total of 3 available in all the western states.

I used to say my wife demands a manual because she can't drive around in an auto in the wrong gear. I think she thought the old Rav 4 was a Rev 4, and she drove it like it was a Porsche. For some reason she does OK in the Mazda.

Few available in '16 too when we bought ours, at a significant discount from a dealer a couple states south.

 

[Cruisin'n5thgear]

I got a '17 base trim Mazda6 in the Vancouver BC area, in Feb '17. No one had even test driven it...

Around 18 miles on ours when we took delivery.

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

...
Modern automatic Xmsn cars scoring better on the EPA test is due to the test being flawed.
...

I believe the EPA test for a manual dictates the roadspeed or the RPM's at which the test driver or the testing rig must upshift gears at. I believe this, then, results in a manual doing horribly by way of gas mileage on the test. When I drive, say just puttsing along, I shift up at 'real low roadspeed. And depending on the situation, I start in 2nd, and again depending on the situation I skip gears... like 2nd to 4th to 6th. My in city has mileage beats EPA by a fair amount.

My close ratio 'box is either a detriment to fuel economy, or an asset, depending on how I drive it.

 

[Hall]

I believe the EPA test for a manual dictates the roadspeed or the RPM's at which the test driver or the testing rig must upshift gears at.

I'd be willing to bet that the EPA's procedure is documented. Shift at a given speed or RPM for all models ? Really doubt that is the case....

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I'd be willing to bet that the EPA's procedure is documented. Shift at a given speed or RPM for all models ? Really doubt that is the case....

Your comment makes sense, for sure, but I could swear I read something to that effect...

 

[ecotourist]

Yes modern automatics usually get slightly better gas mileage and are often rated as faster from 0 - 60.

I think the assumption is that people who want a manual transmission are enthusiasts and want a peppy vehicle so they usually have a lower numerical drive ratio (ie higher RPM at the same speed) which makes for a small mileage penalty. And as several people have pointed out, more gears means better mileage. The practical limit for a passenger vehicle manual transmission is a 6 speed. More than that would be difficult to manage.

A manual can be very fast too (dropping the clutch on a revving engine and then speed shifting) but most car owners don't want to abuse their car in that way. And I don't think they do that at the car magazines either.

But manuals are more fun to drive (and yes I've commuted in cars with manual transmissions). And there is a sense of pride in smooth take offs, smooth shifts and being in the right gear. And finally, if the clutch packs it in on your now +/-15 year old vehicle, it can be repaired rather than writing off the car. If you're having to replace clutches more often than that you should talk to someone about how you're using the clutch.

 

[supton]

Your comment makes sense, for sure, but I could swear I read something to that effect...

I believe I have read that too.

I also think many MT's suffer because OEM's don't want owners to "have to" downshift on hills. Think about it: most of the time we want to be in high gear at 60 or so. But if that is geared good enough to make most hills, then it's going to feel like the engine is spinning pretty high at 80mph. But a gear that drops the rpm at 80 or so to something reasonable is just going to be too tall at 50-60 or so for backroads driving. Unless... if the driver knows enough that top gear is for freeway blasts and next gear down is probably what's needed for around town.

We have plenty of people around here complaining about how their automatic is shifting all the time... now imagine if they had to push a clutch to do the same thing!

 

[The_Jeff]

MBUSA dictates what options will be available in the states so there's no manual E class and for a while they didn't do 4 cylinders either. They also dictate things like have either a sunroof or a panorama sunroof, no sunroof isn't an option but it's an option in Europe. Only probably with your bare bones diesel from Europe is that it would probably never be allowed to be imported because it probably doesn't meet many US rules.

MBUSA doesn't import "utilitarian" mercedes, except the van. They don't want to tarnish their brand image. When I was a kid and there was a war in Beirut I thought they were the richest place in the world because all the taxis were w123 sedans.

 

[The_Jeff]

I believe I have read that too.

I also think many MT's suffer because OEM's don't want owners to "have to" downshift on hills. Think about it: most of the time we want to be in high gear at 60 or so. But if that is geared good enough to make most hills, then it's going to feel like the engine is spinning pretty high at 80mph. But a gear that drops the rpm at 80 or so to something reasonable is just going to be too tall at 50-60 or so for backroads driving.

There's something to do with the EPA/ CAFE fuel economy loop that leads to this. Forget what exactly but there's some sort of rule about having to be in top gear at 47-ish mph.

Also a lugging engine causes NOx, and we can program an automatic to not lug.

With VTEC I'm not so sure an engine's all that far off its torque peak tooling down the highway though. We just think it's "buzzy".

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

I guess my philosophy is (for me, alone, understand) a car is one, big "toy" or hobby pursuit, and I loved toys and toy cars as a kid. A workhorse day-in day-out car or truck has a conventional automatic that I can make very reliable with adding bypass microfiltration and added thermostatic auxiliary cooling (being able to sit in traffic in drive without limitation, pull trailers, etc). For a car with, say, a four cyl engine, or at least a smooth revving engine of moderate power - a creamy manual is great... It makes said car my car of choice; it makes each and every time driving it - an event, a joy. My car as a plaything, a toy...

For serious work, give me a torque-converter automatic with range-select control, downshift rev-matching, and tow/haul mode. Most of the time I'd drive in automatic and I'd want the downshift rev matching only for using range-select when descending long hills.

 

[Rand]

I really like MT it just makes me feel connected when driving.

When automakers drop the % of cars every year yea you sell less.

back in 2011 I had to special order my 2011 forester to get a MT. in 2015 I had to special order a forester to get it with MT.. NO ONE WANTS ONE.. well if there are none on the lot to sell you will sell less??? eh self fulfilling prophecy.

Oh ordered the 2013 outback to get one with MT.