BMW M, Automatics to eliminate DCT and manuals

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Every new 3 series is regarded as one that is not true BMW.


According to who. We have had a 2011 BMW 328i and now a 2017 BMW 330i. Both have been outstanding sport sedans. All the reviews I read on the 2017s before buying indicated that BMW had returned to its roots with the latest improvements in the 3 series cars. Perhaps you could share with us the authority that has proclaimed that every new 3 series is not a true BMW. I am certain that you are not that authority.

2017 is improvement over pre-LCI. But sorry, that EPS on F30 just does not cut it. E90 is 10 light years ahead when it comes to dynamics.
There are always complaints about new 3 series. But BMW seriously messed up stuff with F30, and while LCI is improvement, it is far cry from E90.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Or build M cars on platforms that are so inherently quiet, the only way to get good engine noise in the cabin is to simulate it through the in-car audio.


Found this paper pertinent, and more than a little bit amusing...

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?sid=51&pid=1234&did=1234&lang=en

Quote:
Developing the sports car sound for the next-generation Acura NSX Sports Hybrid required a unique approach to vehicle noise and vibration development. Starting with a holistic acoustic strategy for the vehicle platform design, insulation package and chassis isolation specifications were constructed to accentuate cabin quietness during hybrid driving. Employing multiple acoustic technologies, devices and control strategies, specific frequency and order content was enhanced to maintain the original NSX heritage sound while adding functional purpose to audibly communicate instantaneous power unit feedback to the driver. Execution of this strategy achieved the vehicle sound concept and the hybrid super sports car segment competitiveness was redefined.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Every new 3 series is regarded as one that is not true BMW.


According to who. We have had a 2011 BMW 328i and now a 2017 BMW 330i. Both have been outstanding sport sedans. All the reviews I read on the 2017s before buying indicated that BMW had returned to its roots with the latest improvements in the 3 series cars. Perhaps you could share with us the authority that has proclaimed that every new 3 series is not a true BMW. I am certain that you are not that authority.

2017 is improvement over pre-LCI. But sorry, that EPS on F30 just does not cut it. E90 is 10 light years ahead when it comes to dynamics.
There are always complaints about new 3 series. But BMW seriously messed up stuff with F30, and while LCI is improvement, it is far cry from E90.

Let me just make that a bit more precise. The biggest problem with the F30 is that its chassis doesn't feel as lively or involving as the E90's. It is more capable overall, so how the "dynamics" comparison pans out depends on what you mean by that word. But its steering seriously lacks useful feedback, the platform is quieter and softer than the E90, and with the demise of the N52 there's no more lag-free engine option. The LCI improved the chassis slightly but not enough, and left the engine situation unchanged.

Overall, the F30 is just a better car for casual drivers. It's easier and plenty capable. But for driving enthusiasts, it's a mixed bag at best; more capable, less fun.

What gets me is that BMW must have done this on purpose. EPS is the most common scapegoat, and surely that's part of it, but I don't think that's the end of the story. Mazda has had at least some steering feel in its EPS systems for years now, and Porsche figured it out recently as well. I could buy BMW being slightly behind, but not so far behind that it wrecks the car. Also, not all of their EPS systems are equally bad -- and some of them are better than some of their HPS systems. There has to be something in the chassis as well that saps steering feedback. And it's not like BMW magically forgot how to make a communicative chassis. For the F30, they must have made a conscious decision to sacrifice steering feedback for something else.

Again, no denial that BMW is doing right by its current customers. Just explaining what's going on for enthusiasts.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Or build M cars on platforms that are so inherently quiet, the only way to get good engine noise in the cabin is to simulate it through the in-car audio.


Found this paper pertinent, and more than a little bit amusing...

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?sid=51&pid=1234&did=1234&lang=en

Quote:
Developing the sports car sound for the next-generation Acura NSX Sports Hybrid required a unique approach to vehicle noise and vibration development. Starting with a holistic acoustic strategy for the vehicle platform design, insulation package and chassis isolation specifications were constructed to accentuate cabin quietness during hybrid driving. Employing multiple acoustic technologies, devices and control strategies, specific frequency and order content was enhanced to maintain the original NSX heritage sound while adding functional purpose to audibly communicate instantaneous power unit feedback to the driver. Execution of this strategy achieved the vehicle sound concept and the hybrid super sports car segment competitiveness was redefined.

Oh WOW. That's some epic euphemism.

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Overall, the F30 is just a better car for casual drivers. It's easier and plenty capable. But for driving enthusiasts, it's a mixed bag at best; more capable, less fun.

Again, no denial that BMW is doing right by its current customers. Just explaining what's going on for enthusiasts.


These are excellent points and should explain the changes BMW has made over the years. They are aiming for the bulk of their customer base, not the .01 percent that will never be pleased with progress.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Every new 3 series is regarded as one that is not true BMW.


According to who. We have had a 2011 BMW 328i and now a 2017 BMW 330i. Both have been outstanding sport sedans. All the reviews I read on the 2017s before buying indicated that BMW had returned to its roots with the latest improvements in the 3 series cars. Perhaps you could share with us the authority that has proclaimed that every new 3 series is not a true BMW. I am certain that you are not that authority.

2017 is improvement over pre-LCI. But sorry, that EPS on F30 just does not cut it. E90 is 10 light years ahead when it comes to dynamics.
There are always complaints about new 3 series. But BMW seriously messed up stuff with F30, and while LCI is improvement, it is far cry from E90.

Let me just make that a bit more precise. The biggest problem with the F30 is that its chassis doesn't feel as lively or involving as the E90's. It is more capable overall, so how the "dynamics" comparison pans out depends on what you mean by that word. But its steering seriously lacks useful feedback, the platform is quieter and softer than the E90, and with the demise of the N52 there's no more lag-free engine option. The LCI improved the chassis slightly but not enough, and left the engine situation unchanged.

Overall, the F30 is just a better car for casual drivers. It's easier and plenty capable. But for driving enthusiasts, it's a mixed bag at best; more capable, less fun.

What gets me is that BMW must have done this on purpose. EPS is the most common scapegoat, and surely that's part of it, but I don't think that's the end of the story. Mazda has had at least some steering feel in its EPS systems for years now, and Porsche figured it out recently as well. I could buy BMW being slightly behind, but not so far behind that it wrecks the car. Also, not all of their EPS systems are equally bad -- and some of them are better than some of their HPS systems. There has to be something in the chassis as well that saps steering feedback. And it's not like BMW magically forgot how to make a communicative chassis. For the F30, they must have made a conscious decision to sacrifice steering feedback for something else.

Again, no denial that BMW is doing right by its current customers. Just explaining what's going on for enthusiasts.

Yes, there are issues in chassis to. Like I said before, amount of movement of suspension in curves on pre-LCI cars is ridiculous by BMW standards.
LCI is better, probably 328d being best overall due to stronger and stiffened parts of suspension due to weight of engine.
But talking about capability, I am not sure 6 speed manual F30 335i would do better lap time then E90 335i with manual. There is no doubt that 8 speed in f30 is ridiculously fast, but on track, curves, I just cannot wrap my mind of F30 being faster having same engine and gearbox. 340i another thing though.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Overall, the F30 is just a better car for casual drivers. It's easier and plenty capable. But for driving enthusiasts, it's a mixed bag at best; more capable, less fun.

Again, no denial that BMW is doing right by its current customers. Just explaining what's going on for enthusiasts.


These are excellent points and should explain the changes BMW has made over the years. They are aiming for the bulk of their customer base, not the .01 percent that will never be pleased with progress.

But, it is catching up with BMW big time. People who are buying BMW because of badge are buying it because of that image of drivers car. And that image is under assault big time.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Overall, the F30 is just a better car for casual drivers. It's easier and plenty capable. But for driving enthusiasts, it's a mixed bag at best; more capable, less fun.

Again, no denial that BMW is doing right by its current customers. Just explaining what's going on for enthusiasts.


These are excellent points and should explain the changes BMW has made over the years. They are aiming for the bulk of their customer base, not the .01 percent that will never be pleased with progress.

But, it is catching up with BMW big time. People who are buying BMW because of badge are buying it because of that image of drivers car. And that image is under assault big time.

Exactly.

And by skewing the formula more toward comfort, they're steering into territory that Mercedes has ruled forever. Meanwhile, they're leaving a vacuum that other companies can fill for PR points -- which Cadillac, Jaguar, and even Lexus have already done. Even Mercedes is encroaching on BMW's sporting cred; the M sport sedans are no longer convincingly better than their AMG equivalents, and BMW has no answer to the AMG GT. And Mercedes is doing this while ceding no ground to BMW among regular drivers, which kind of makes you wonder why BMW has to sell its soul to do the opposite.

Un-differentiating and commodifying your product can work in the short term. But the customers you gain are folks who don't care as much what they buy, and the ones you lose are the ones who would have been willing to stick with you. It's a precarious position to be in. Evidently some folks at BMW understands this, judging from the M2, LCI F30, and M4 GTS. Let's hope the company continues to listen to them -- or that another company picks up the torch soon.

 

[edyvw]

Problem is they became just too big. Quandt family never wanted this to happen, and once they were kicked out of decision making process, things started to expand. They want to be Lexus, Mercedes, Audi=everything.
The U.S. market dictates a lot of movement, same as Chinese market. X1 for example was made strictly for China. Transverse engine etc. Then they figured: oh why not selling this elsewhere? I told one person who drives X1: please do not call tat BMW. BMW does not have transverse engine and is never based on FWD platform. He found it as news that there could be different position of engine or that there is a difference in RWD or FWD when it comes to dynamics.
So those are customers that BMW is tailoring cars for now. PROBLEM: Once that customer gets burned by water pump of N55 engine, or emission system on 35d or 28d, they are NEVER coming back. On other hand, loyal customers who buy BMW's know there are strings attached to BMW.
But just go on BMW forums and see what people complain about, and becomes clear why BMW is making cars like X5 F15 or F30. They complain about stuff that make real BMW a BMW: the steering is too heavy, brakes are too responsive, it is hard on the road etc. They want badge for neighbors, that is it!

 

[circuitsmith]

Has any maker tried a power assisted clutch pedal, much like power assisted brakes?
That would solve the issue of a stiff pedal to operate a heavy duty clutch.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Or build M cars on platforms that are so inherently quiet, the only way to get good engine noise in the cabin is to simulate it through the in-car audio.


Found this paper pertinent, and more than a little bit amusing...

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?sid=51&pid=1234&did=1234&lang=en

Quote:
Developing the sports car sound for the next-generation Acura NSX Sports Hybrid required a unique approach to vehicle noise and vibration development. Starting with a holistic acoustic strategy for the vehicle platform design, insulation package and chassis isolation specifications were constructed to accentuate cabin quietness during hybrid driving. Employing multiple acoustic technologies, devices and control strategies, specific frequency and order content was enhanced to maintain the original NSX heritage sound while adding functional purpose to audibly communicate instantaneous power unit feedback to the driver. Execution of this strategy achieved the vehicle sound concept and the hybrid super sports car segment competitiveness was redefined.

Oh WOW. That's some epic euphemism.


Doubletalk. Doubletalk.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
Has any maker tried a power assisted clutch pedal, much like power assisted brakes?
That would solve the issue of a stiff pedal to operate a heavy duty clutch.

In general, more assist = less feel. That's all else equal, of course.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I told one person who drives X1: please do not call tat BMW.


Even if true in your eyes, saying that to the owner is rather pompas.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I told one person who drives X1: please do not call tat BMW.


Even if true in your eyes, saying that to the owner is rather pompas.

We discussed BMW's and it just came to talk about how X1 is this or that.
If you are buying any car, at least inform yourself what you buying.

 

[wemay]

You may have a point concerning the new 'made for the masses' BMWs...

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/26/2018-bmw-m550i-first-drive-review-9876/?hcid=hp-tile-large3

Originally Posted By: Autoblog.com
2018 BMW M550i First Drive | Powerful, otherwise mediocre
...If you want lazy power and relaxed long distance cruising with a sledge hammer under the hood just in case, then this might be the car for you. But for those who like their driving, the Mercedes-AMG end of the E-Class brochure makes a more convincing case for itself – even the V6-powered E43 AMG. Either that or wait for the M5, which can't be anything but an improvement on this. If the 5 Series is blasé, the 550i xDrive M Performance is actually disappointing.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: wemay
You may have a point concerning the new 'made for the masses' BMWs...

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/26/2018-bmw-m550i-first-drive-review-9876/?hcid=hp-tile-large3

Originally Posted By: Autoblog.com
2018 BMW M550i First Drive | Powerful, otherwise mediocre
...If you want lazy power and relaxed long distance cruising with a sledge hammer under the hood just in case, then this might be the car for you. But for those who like their driving, the Mercedes-AMG end of the E-Class brochure makes a more convincing case for itself – even the V6-powered E43 AMG. Either that or wait for the M5, which can't be anything but an improvement on this. If the 5 Series is blasé, the 550i xDrive M Performance is actually disappointing.

Since they moved F10 from 3 series based platform to 7 series based platform, all things are going downhill.
A lot of people at BMW lost sense what company is. Thru history BMW made best driving cars, the smaller you go the better experience. MB is different, the bigger you go (S class) the better comfort is etc. BMW planted 5 series on 7 series platform, and 7 series has never been some success except E38 and generations before.
It is sad. They make best engine-transmission combo, but they focused too much on gimmicks etc. that true BMW enthusiasts do not care about, and they are most loyal crowd. When you snatch Lexus customer, Lexus customer wants Lexus reliability, and BMW complexity cannot match Lexus simplicity. They are gone after lease is done. You betrayed loyal fans, and in the process lost Lexus customers, which in all honesty could not care less what they drive.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Oh WOW. That's some epic euphemism.



hahaha, the writer was on a roll...