Malaysian 777 shot down over Ukraine

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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Looks like Pro Russian Ukrainian separatists did it.

http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/so...er-ifax-2014071


More than likely true.


While this probably is true, I'm sure that Putin's people didn't supply this sophisticated and apparently effective anti-aircraft missile system.
The Ukrainian separatists probably just found it by the side of the road somewhere and figured out how to make it work.


Try the bases they seized.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/0...nts_killed.html
 
So having your mercs seize the hardware somehow makes this okay?
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
Your hardware, your responsibility and your problem.
This is a wake-up call for the West to call Putin on his lies.
I hope that someone has the moral courage to do so.
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

But it would be stupid for anybody to underestimate the Germans. Incredibly stupid.


True. But that goes for Russia too.


Certainly. History shows us that both are incredibly resilient and resourceful. Putin isn't stupid, he's no more likely to underestimate the Germans than the Germans are to underestimate Russia.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

But it would be stupid for anybody to underestimate the Germans. Incredibly stupid.


True. But that goes for Russia too.


Certainly. History shows us that both are incredibly resilient and resourceful. Putin isn't stupid, he's no more likely to underestimate the Germans than the Germans are to underestimate Russia.


World War II wasn't won by the Russians and it certainly wasn't won by the Germans.
Only one country was able to come along and resolve the conflict.
Say what you will, but try to imagine a Europe in which the US had elected to give the war in Europe a pass.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

But it would be stupid for anybody to underestimate the Germans. Incredibly stupid.


True. But that goes for Russia too.


Certainly. History shows us that both are incredibly resilient and resourceful. Putin isn't stupid, he's no more likely to underestimate the Germans than the Germans are to underestimate Russia.


World War II wasn't won by the Russians and it certainly wasn't won by the Germans.
Only one country was able to come along and resolve the conflict.
Say what you will, but try to imagine a Europe in which the US had elected to give the war in Europe a pass.


"Resolving the conflict" was a joint effort. Plenty of Canadians died on the beaches of Dieppe, plenty of British, French...etc all died fighting the Nazi's. The reason WW2 happened was due to the ignorance of the British and the rest of Europe who refused to believe that the Germans were re-arming after the humiliation that was WW1. That ended up being a whole pile of egg on their faces.

My point was not to upset those that favour the theme song of Team America, it was simply to point out that a country the size of the maritimes managed to successfully take over most of Europe and that Russia ended up being a far greater obstacle than had been anticipated, nothing more, nothing less. The Germans did a lot of damage to Russia and Russia ended up being a far greater problem than the Germans had anticipated. Both are well aware of each others history. This need not devolve into something about the US and me not acknowledging your contribution to the war effort so please don't take it in that direction. It isn't about that, it is just about the history between the two countries.
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe would unfortunately be speaking German today ...


I don't disagree. However I wasn't looking to delve into a discussion about WWII (we've had some great ones about it in the past on here), I just wanted to touch upon the rather significant and very bloody history between Germany and Russia and how it would be foolish for either nation to underestimate the other.
 
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Does anyone know the brand of oil that the shot down airliner was using????????????


No, but I can tell you the Buk SAM carrier chassis (GM-569) takes 15W40 diesel oil.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
............
This is a wake-up call for the West to call Putin on his lies.
I hope that someone has the moral courage to do so.


Well, don't look for that "courage" to emanate from Capitol Hill.
Why?

"There's too much to lose if we "over-react" to this misunderstanding.

After all, there are elections on the horizon in 2014 and 2016 and the stock market is at an all-time high.

Can't we all just get along?"

How's that for the expected Congressional "action?"
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

While this probably is true, I'm sure that Putin's people didn't supply this sophisticated and apparently effective anti-aircraft missile system.
The Ukrainian separatists probably just found it by the side of the road somewhere and figured out how to make it work.


Try the bases they seized.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/0...nts_killed.html


Nice try. That particular Buk SAM battery was seen brought from Russia on a truck. Now it's parked in the residential area, so they should be safe from any artillery strikes.

9769523.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Prelude
Brainwashed? And what about the link you provided? Isn't it a sheer propaganda? Yes, this is a full scale war and the sides want to feel like they are doing right things. Do you really think that you get the whole picture from the American TV and newspapers and you don't get brainwashed?


How about the rebels themselves? Didn't they brag about shooting down an Ukrainian plane this AM? The only thing is it was not Ukrainian An-26, but Malaysian B777. Oops!

Now, they deleted their entry by now, but some people took screen shots and shared. Since russian is your native language, you can clearly read yourself. It comes from the chief rebel Strielkov himself.

Bswc4vNIAAAm25j.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

While this probably is true, I'm sure that Putin's people didn't supply this sophisticated and apparently effective anti-aircraft missile system.
The Ukrainian separatists probably just found it by the side of the road somewhere and figured out how to make it work.


Try the bases they seized.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/0...nts_killed.html


Nice try. That particular Buk SAM battery was seen brought from Russia on a truck.




Now it's parked in the residential area, so they should be safe from any artillery strikes.

9769523.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe would unfortunately be speaking German today ...


That is one cocky statement right there...let's not forget that the victory in Europe over the germans was an allied combined effort and that the russians did most of the heavy lifting.

If the germans would of succeeded in taking over russia, you can be sure that by 1950 the USA would of folded under the japo and nazy combined hammering.
 
Last edited:
I doubt it. Germany overextended themselves during the invasion of the Soviet Union. Even if the German army was successful with the invasion of the eastern Soviet Union the Nazi's supply lines would need until the spring of 1942 to re-establish their offensive towards the Soviet factories past the Ural Mountains taking causalities losing men and equipment that Germany could not recover. Meanwhile the allies are still occupying some Germany's attention on the eastern front.

Germany lost the war in Europe after the failure to conquer Britain in 1940 then invading the Soviet Union in 1941. The Luftwaffe lost so many aircraft in from the combined offensives on both fronts retaining air superiority on either front would be unattainable and resources lost were irreplaceable.

Japan was in a even more precarious situation. It is a Island Nation and it's entire offense and defense was entirely dependent on a Navy that could not afford to lose an single aircraft carrier because Japan did not have the resources to replace a single of its carriers. Japan had 6 heavy carriers in total for the entire war. In comparison the U.S. had 8 heavy carriers before the start of the U.S. involvement in the conflict.

The Axis powers could not afford WWII to become a war of attrition because each country was largely dependent of waging war on equipment produced prior to the start of the war.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

How about the rebels themselves? Didn't they brag about shooting down an Ukrainian plane this AM? The only thing is it was not Ukrainian An-26, but Malaysian B777. Oops!

Now, they deleted their entry by now, but some people took screen shots and shared. Since russian is your native language, you can clearly read yourself. It comes from the chief rebel Strielkov himself.

Bswc4vNIAAAm25j.jpg



You can't tell if that's his real account or if the screenshot is genuine. An average ten year old can create such material.

One funny thing is, that these tapped conversations about shotdown from Ukrainian Security Service were created on wednesday according to video file's metadata. You can download the video with some youtube downloader and check if you don't believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw
creation_time : 2014-07-16 20:32:12

Of course it's possible that their PCs had wrong date setting, but it's still funny.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Prelude
Brainwashed? And what about the link you provided? Isn't it a sheer propaganda? Yes, this is a full scale war and the sides want to feel like they are doing right things. Do you really think that you get the whole picture from the American TV and newspapers and you don't get brainwashed?


Yes, there is some propaganda going on in some US network (I wont mention names not to offend the numerous FoxNews viewers on BITOG). But, nothing beats the Russian media that was nationalized by Putin to be a megaphone for his lies.


This is a bit sad, as the only network that actually counters the ludicrously obvious liberal agenda of most media sources is Fox. Whether you imagine them to be biased (of course they are, we ALL are) or not they perform a very important function since the rest of the media marches in lock step with our King...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
...the rest of the media marches in lock step with our King...


Easy, now... Haven't you heard that saying a certain politician behaves like a monarch automatically makes one a racist?

The Attorney General said so, so it must be true.
 
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
Easy, now... Haven't you heard that saying a certain politician behaves like a monarch automatically makes one a racist?

The Attorney General said so, so it must be true.


I have no problems saying. If the United States government had any integrity the Attorney General would have been impeached.
 
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