That's certainly possible, but it would be news to me. Like I said, I wouldn't be much help in an airline cockpit.
Malaysia Airlines 777 loses contact...not found
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Aren't all airliner radios set up so that anyone can push one button and be on the GUARD emergency frequency? Or was an author (who, I must add, is a retired airline pilot) making something up?
Nope. You have to tune the radio to guard (121.5), then set up your comm panel to talk on it.
Here's a picture: http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/ped/radio.html
Select the radio you want to tune by hitting that button. Twist the outer knob on the right to get to 121, inner to tune the .500 in the standby window. Hit the arrow switch to change active with standby, and you're now tuned to guard.
Easy, right? Now, to the comms panel. Here's one: http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/compo...-fds-b777-acp1/
Press the mic switch for that radio on which you want to talk, so that it's illuminated (if it's already illuminated, pressing it will turn it off). Press the volume knob down for the radio to which you want to listed so that it pops up and is illuminated. Rotate it to about 12 o'clock (mid volume). Then find the speaker and turn it up because you won't have a headset/minitel on...
Oh...and there is no guard when you're over the ocean and talking to an LDOC. You're beyond VHF range. You have to read a chart, find the primary HF (day or night, it matters) for where you are at that moment, and tune it up if you want to talk to someone...
Aren't all airliner radios set up so that anyone can push one button and be on the GUARD emergency frequency? Or was an author (who, I must add, is a retired airline pilot) making something up?
Nope. You have to tune the radio to guard (121.5), then set up your comm panel to talk on it.
Here's a picture: http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/ped/radio.html
Select the radio you want to tune by hitting that button. Twist the outer knob on the right to get to 121, inner to tune the .500 in the standby window. Hit the arrow switch to change active with standby, and you're now tuned to guard.
Easy, right? Now, to the comms panel. Here's one: http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/compo...-fds-b777-acp1/
Press the mic switch for that radio on which you want to talk, so that it's illuminated (if it's already illuminated, pressing it will turn it off). Press the volume knob down for the radio to which you want to listed so that it pops up and is illuminated. Rotate it to about 12 o'clock (mid volume). Then find the speaker and turn it up because you won't have a headset/minitel on...
Oh...and there is no guard when you're over the ocean and talking to an LDOC. You're beyond VHF range. You have to read a chart, find the primary HF (day or night, it matters) for where you are at that moment, and tune it up if you want to talk to someone...
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I'm not trying to insult airline pilots...but aren't modern autopilots sophisticated enough that a plane can actually land itself in an emergency? (For that matter...couldn't an F/B-111 do that 30 years ago?)
Most large airliners have an autoland capability. Basically, the autopilot is coupled (locked on) to the ILS signal, and using the radio altimeter, it flies to the runway and at a preprogrammed height above the field, the autpilot puts in a pitch change and at another height, it pulls power to idle....if it's all programmed correctly to do so...
Ever slam into the runway on a really foggy day? That was an autoland, safe, but an engineer's definition of performance within limits...ever touch down so smoothly that you couldn't really tell when the airplane stopped flying? That was the pilot.
Sure, the airplane can autoland - it's a way for an experienced crew to have the airplane handle extremely poor visibility. It's too complicated, with too many variables to be a "save me" button...there are literally hundreds of sequential, critical steps to be taken...and were you our hypothetical "cheat sheet passenger", you just wouldn't have time to do them all to get the jet to land itself before you ran out of fuel.
To autoland, there are some requirements:
1. The airplane must not have any mechanical degradations that preclude the system working (would you know what those are? Where to find them? how to check? Some airplanes can autoland with an engine shut down. Some can't).
2. The ILS system for the runway on which you want to land must be fully functioning (know how to check the NOTAMs? Know which runway is in use? The others won't have the ILS turned on). The ILS for that runway must be certified for autoland. (not all runways are certified, could you read the approach chart to know if it's possible on the runway to which you're flying?)
3. The weather, particularly winds, must be within limits (again, what are those limits? They're in the flight manual, though we're required to memorize them. How do you determine the weather at the airport to which you are flying?)
4. The airplane FMC must be programmed. The ILS must be tuned and identified. The ILS must be monitored (on a 777 or similar, that is done by the FMCs, but you have to get a continuous glideslope and localizer signal or the autopilot won't know where to fly.)
5. The airplane must be configured to land: gear down and locked, flaps at an appropriate setting, spoilers armed, autobrakes armed. ( at what speeds do I do those things? too fast and I break them, too slow and the airplane stalls, exceeding the autopilot limits for flying)
6. Finally, the autopilot itself has to be correctly programmed (for example, on the A-320, you can't engage the second autopilot until the approach mode is armed), the appropriate buttons selected in the correct sequence to ensure that the airplane will execute the autoland.
Now, you're flying towards your airport at 250 KTS...so you're eating up 4 miles per minute...and you have to program all this, get it all done from the time the approach starts, at about 15 miles (when you would have been slowing down), in the right sequence, to arrive at the roughly 5 mile point with everything done...even if you started early, say 50 miles out, I could not possibly talk you through each button push, each configuration change (flaps, gear) in that amount of time. You would run the airplane out of fuel...
And I am assuming of course that you're able to fly the airplane while I am talking to you...you are able to fly the airplane, navigate it towards where you need to be and simultaneously look around for each button, right? Again, this isn't MS Flight Sim...this is a real jet, with pitch, power, trim and it needs to be flown...you can use the autopilot..but I would have to talk you through how to use it to fly the airplane...again back to Asiana 214, that Captain didn't know which of the several autopilot modes was operating during his approach (hint: it was in thrust idle)...so if an experienced crew got it wrong, how well would our intrepid passenger do?
So, here's an example. Which one of these requirements was missing for Asiana 214? He could have autolanded in SFO, right? Experienced crew, trained to operate the airplane? However, the ILS for Runway 28 was NOTAM out of service that day....that 777 could not have done an autoland at SFO...
This is like trying to describe open-heart surgery to someone who's never held a scalpel...I am trying...but an autoland is something that not all crews are trained for. Not all airplanes can do it. Only some crews are certified. Only some airlines are capable...and that's because it requires special equipment, training, and certification.
I'm not trying to insult airline pilots...but aren't modern autopilots sophisticated enough that a plane can actually land itself in an emergency? (For that matter...couldn't an F/B-111 do that 30 years ago?)
Most large airliners have an autoland capability. Basically, the autopilot is coupled (locked on) to the ILS signal, and using the radio altimeter, it flies to the runway and at a preprogrammed height above the field, the autpilot puts in a pitch change and at another height, it pulls power to idle....if it's all programmed correctly to do so...
Ever slam into the runway on a really foggy day? That was an autoland, safe, but an engineer's definition of performance within limits...ever touch down so smoothly that you couldn't really tell when the airplane stopped flying? That was the pilot.
Sure, the airplane can autoland - it's a way for an experienced crew to have the airplane handle extremely poor visibility. It's too complicated, with too many variables to be a "save me" button...there are literally hundreds of sequential, critical steps to be taken...and were you our hypothetical "cheat sheet passenger", you just wouldn't have time to do them all to get the jet to land itself before you ran out of fuel.
To autoland, there are some requirements:
1. The airplane must not have any mechanical degradations that preclude the system working (would you know what those are? Where to find them? how to check? Some airplanes can autoland with an engine shut down. Some can't).
2. The ILS system for the runway on which you want to land must be fully functioning (know how to check the NOTAMs? Know which runway is in use? The others won't have the ILS turned on). The ILS for that runway must be certified for autoland. (not all runways are certified, could you read the approach chart to know if it's possible on the runway to which you're flying?)
3. The weather, particularly winds, must be within limits (again, what are those limits? They're in the flight manual, though we're required to memorize them. How do you determine the weather at the airport to which you are flying?)
4. The airplane FMC must be programmed. The ILS must be tuned and identified. The ILS must be monitored (on a 777 or similar, that is done by the FMCs, but you have to get a continuous glideslope and localizer signal or the autopilot won't know where to fly.)
5. The airplane must be configured to land: gear down and locked, flaps at an appropriate setting, spoilers armed, autobrakes armed. ( at what speeds do I do those things? too fast and I break them, too slow and the airplane stalls, exceeding the autopilot limits for flying)
6. Finally, the autopilot itself has to be correctly programmed (for example, on the A-320, you can't engage the second autopilot until the approach mode is armed), the appropriate buttons selected in the correct sequence to ensure that the airplane will execute the autoland.
Now, you're flying towards your airport at 250 KTS...so you're eating up 4 miles per minute...and you have to program all this, get it all done from the time the approach starts, at about 15 miles (when you would have been slowing down), in the right sequence, to arrive at the roughly 5 mile point with everything done...even if you started early, say 50 miles out, I could not possibly talk you through each button push, each configuration change (flaps, gear) in that amount of time. You would run the airplane out of fuel...
And I am assuming of course that you're able to fly the airplane while I am talking to you...you are able to fly the airplane, navigate it towards where you need to be and simultaneously look around for each button, right? Again, this isn't MS Flight Sim...this is a real jet, with pitch, power, trim and it needs to be flown...you can use the autopilot..but I would have to talk you through how to use it to fly the airplane...again back to Asiana 214, that Captain didn't know which of the several autopilot modes was operating during his approach (hint: it was in thrust idle)...so if an experienced crew got it wrong, how well would our intrepid passenger do?
So, here's an example. Which one of these requirements was missing for Asiana 214? He could have autolanded in SFO, right? Experienced crew, trained to operate the airplane? However, the ILS for Runway 28 was NOTAM out of service that day....that 777 could not have done an autoland at SFO...
This is like trying to describe open-heart surgery to someone who's never held a scalpel...I am trying...but an autoland is something that not all crews are trained for. Not all airplanes can do it. Only some crews are certified. Only some airlines are capable...and that's because it requires special equipment, training, and certification.
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I realize that VHF is LOS...but wouldn't a plane at 35,000+ feet have an enormous (250+ mile radius) coverage area?
Isn't there also a UHF GUARD channel? Or is that only military?
Military is 243.00 MHz, but airliners can't tune UHF. The LOS, as a practical matter is close to 250 miles, as you've guessed.
But back to my point: even if you could talk to someone, what would you ask them? The air traffic controller isn't able to tell you how to fly the airplane. Even if they got an instructor in the airplane, the idea that you could talk someone through how to fly an airliner is, quite frankly, fantasy.
I've tried. I've spent hours giving tours in the 747-400 simulator (I was an instructor in that jet) and in the F-14 simulator (also, an instructor in that jet). With me looking over your shoulder, you can't respond or act fast enough to get everything done. I usually was punching buttons for my guest/cousin/child/whoever and then still having to grab the controls because they simply could not handle the multitude of sensory inputs for what was happening to the airplane as they were trying to control it.
Not a criticism of them. But something like landing a jet, with configuration changes, energy management and the speed at which it happens, is simply too much for someone to pick up in the moment.
Fly the airplane, clean, and in level flight? Sure, I can talk them through that...and have some fun doing it. But gear/flap/trim/power/pitch and controlling the airplane's course, speed, and rate of descent? Too many variables...far more difficult than a fixed gear prop airplane...far more difficult than flight simulators that are dumbed down enough for people to be able to fly them...
I realize that VHF is LOS...but wouldn't a plane at 35,000+ feet have an enormous (250+ mile radius) coverage area?
Isn't there also a UHF GUARD channel? Or is that only military?
Military is 243.00 MHz, but airliners can't tune UHF. The LOS, as a practical matter is close to 250 miles, as you've guessed.
But back to my point: even if you could talk to someone, what would you ask them? The air traffic controller isn't able to tell you how to fly the airplane. Even if they got an instructor in the airplane, the idea that you could talk someone through how to fly an airliner is, quite frankly, fantasy.
I've tried. I've spent hours giving tours in the 747-400 simulator (I was an instructor in that jet) and in the F-14 simulator (also, an instructor in that jet). With me looking over your shoulder, you can't respond or act fast enough to get everything done. I usually was punching buttons for my guest/cousin/child/whoever and then still having to grab the controls because they simply could not handle the multitude of sensory inputs for what was happening to the airplane as they were trying to control it.
Not a criticism of them. But something like landing a jet, with configuration changes, energy management and the speed at which it happens, is simply too much for someone to pick up in the moment.
Fly the airplane, clean, and in level flight? Sure, I can talk them through that...and have some fun doing it. But gear/flap/trim/power/pitch and controlling the airplane's course, speed, and rate of descent? Too many variables...far more difficult than a fixed gear prop airplane...far more difficult than flight simulators that are dumbed down enough for people to be able to fly them...
I know that over the ocean that HF radio is what the commercial carriers use. I'm a Amateur and have heard them in the USA
on about 5.200-5.500 MHz about the 49mb or so.
on about 5.200-5.500 MHz about the 49mb or so.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I know that over the ocean that HF radio is what the commercial carriers use. I'm a Amateur and have heard them in the USA
on about 5.200-5.500 MHz about the 49mb or so.
HF is used as a backup most of the time these days and we don't have to monitor HF because we have SELCAL (Selective Calling) which allows a controlling agency to have us call them by contacting us by using a discreet code that will only chime on one paticular aircraft. Over the Ocean we use Satellite Communication or SATCOM for CPDLC (Controller/Pilot Data Link Communication), Voice, and ACARS. It works very well and the voice portion is crystal clear. On afternoon while returning to the US from London, I called my wife at home from the middle of the North Atlantic, and it sounded like I was right there in the room with her.
Over Oceanic or remote regions of the world, using SATCOM with CPDLC mens we don't speak using voice, but rather using text messages uplinked directly to our aircraft from the controlling Air Traffic Control agency. CPDLC logon changes (handoffs to the next agency) are done automatically by the current controlling agency to the next controller.
Not every airline uses SATCOM or CPDLC and it's not a requirement to do so - having it sure makes life much easier, and it's comforting to know you have a direct communications link when you are flying over long stretches of ocean.
Hope that information helps...
I know that over the ocean that HF radio is what the commercial carriers use. I'm a Amateur and have heard them in the USA
on about 5.200-5.500 MHz about the 49mb or so.
HF is used as a backup most of the time these days and we don't have to monitor HF because we have SELCAL (Selective Calling) which allows a controlling agency to have us call them by contacting us by using a discreet code that will only chime on one paticular aircraft. Over the Ocean we use Satellite Communication or SATCOM for CPDLC (Controller/Pilot Data Link Communication), Voice, and ACARS. It works very well and the voice portion is crystal clear. On afternoon while returning to the US from London, I called my wife at home from the middle of the North Atlantic, and it sounded like I was right there in the room with her.
Over Oceanic or remote regions of the world, using SATCOM with CPDLC mens we don't speak using voice, but rather using text messages uplinked directly to our aircraft from the controlling Air Traffic Control agency. CPDLC logon changes (handoffs to the next agency) are done automatically by the current controlling agency to the next controller.
Not every airline uses SATCOM or CPDLC and it's not a requirement to do so - having it sure makes life much easier, and it's comforting to know you have a direct communications link when you are flying over long stretches of ocean.
Hope that information helps...
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I'm still hoping that Astro14 answers my query here:
@Astro14:
Again, although it would be "fantasy" to expect a untrained lay person to fly the plane with out probably crashing.......
....you never addressed my question of what the "industry protocol" is for a scenario where both pilots are either deceased or totally incapacitated and only the untrained flight staff and or passengers are available to pilot the plane.
You mention that the official flight manual on board is designed only for professionally trained pilots, yet the possibility is there that there may be an occasion where BOTH pilots are incapacitated, and radio contact is impossible.
I'm almost surprised that there isn't a "cheat sheet" that could be used by untrained persons in the event of an emergency. I know a modern airliner is extremely complex but there must be a way to make it at least possible for a person in an emergency to at least fly the plane (activate or control the autopilot) and maybe land it via auto landing program (likely crash landing) so there there is some chance some passengers might survive.
Surely that is not "fantasy" to those passengers on such a potential flight?
There is no industry protocol because it has never happened that the entire flight deck crew is totally incapacitated. The flight deck door is secured, so even if both pilots are incapacitated, there is no way anyone could get in to the flight deck. Like Astro has already suggested, this is pure fantasy.
I have also instructed on the 727, 757, 747-400 aircraft for many years. Some years ago, we had a program at my airline where frequent flyers could use their accumulated miles to "buy" an hour in a 747-400 flight simulator. 99% could not even get close to landing at an airport - and that was with me trying to tell them what to do and when to do it.
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
Over several years during the 90's, I had the opportunity to "instruct" some 50-75 different people taking 747-400 simulator joyrides, and not one of them could land the 747-400 without me taking the simulator from them to get it lined back up, or corrected from an unusual attitude. Even if they got close to landing on the runway, they usually ran off the side, or landed so hard that the landing gear collapsed and the wings snapped off (Hypothetically since we were in a simulator). Thankfully the joyride program ended when we started hiring pilots again and the simulators were too busy to allow for anything but training.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm still hoping that Astro14 answers my query here:
@Astro14:
Again, although it would be "fantasy" to expect a untrained lay person to fly the plane with out probably crashing.......
....you never addressed my question of what the "industry protocol" is for a scenario where both pilots are either deceased or totally incapacitated and only the untrained flight staff and or passengers are available to pilot the plane.
You mention that the official flight manual on board is designed only for professionally trained pilots, yet the possibility is there that there may be an occasion where BOTH pilots are incapacitated, and radio contact is impossible.
I'm almost surprised that there isn't a "cheat sheet" that could be used by untrained persons in the event of an emergency. I know a modern airliner is extremely complex but there must be a way to make it at least possible for a person in an emergency to at least fly the plane (activate or control the autopilot) and maybe land it via auto landing program (likely crash landing) so there there is some chance some passengers might survive.
Surely that is not "fantasy" to those passengers on such a potential flight?
There is no industry protocol because it has never happened that the entire flight deck crew is totally incapacitated. The flight deck door is secured, so even if both pilots are incapacitated, there is no way anyone could get in to the flight deck. Like Astro has already suggested, this is pure fantasy.
I have also instructed on the 727, 757, 747-400 aircraft for many years. Some years ago, we had a program at my airline where frequent flyers could use their accumulated miles to "buy" an hour in a 747-400 flight simulator. 99% could not even get close to landing at an airport - and that was with me trying to tell them what to do and when to do it.
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
Over several years during the 90's, I had the opportunity to "instruct" some 50-75 different people taking 747-400 simulator joyrides, and not one of them could land the 747-400 without me taking the simulator from them to get it lined back up, or corrected from an unusual attitude. Even if they got close to landing on the runway, they usually ran off the side, or landed so hard that the landing gear collapsed and the wings snapped off (Hypothetically since we were in a simulator). Thankfully the joyride program ended when we started hiring pilots again and the simulators were too busy to allow for anything but training.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Here's an oddball question for Astro: could a windshield have failed?
There are no birds at 30,000 ft.
I will give you one trillion dollars if you can point to where I said anything about a bird. Ready...go to it!
Sorry, allow me to connect the dots for you. Airliners are designed to withstand direct hits from large birds at high rates of speed. This is the worst design case. Since there are no birds at the high altitude, it is unlikely to fail at high altitude. There, you can keep your money.
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Here's an oddball question for Astro: could a windshield have failed?
There are no birds at 30,000 ft.
I will give you one trillion dollars if you can point to where I said anything about a bird. Ready...go to it!
Sorry, allow me to connect the dots for you. Airliners are designed to withstand direct hits from large birds at high rates of speed. This is the worst design case. Since there are no birds at the high altitude, it is unlikely to fail at high altitude. There, you can keep your money.
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Here's an oddball question for Astro: could a windshield have failed?
There are no birds at 30,000 ft.
I will give you one trillion dollars if you can point to where I said anything about a bird. Ready...go to it!
Sorry, allow me to connect the dots for you. Airliners are designed to withstand direct hits from large birds at high rates of speed. This is the worst design case. Since there are no birds at the high altitude, it is unlikely to fail at high altitude. There, you can keep your money.
There are 2 stacked panes of glass in cockpit windows. Plus, the front windows are heated whenever the engines are running which gives added strength and resistance to breaking. Both panes are also laminated with plastic to prevent shattering and breakup. (I don't exactly how thick the individual panes are, but IIRC they are over 2" per pane according to the manufacturer, PPG.
The worst possible event would be a total failue of the front window. Any guesses as to which way the window would blow? In or out?
At altitude, if there was a total failure of a front cockpit window, the window would actually blow outward due to the 8.7 psi differential pressure from the cabin. I can't find the formula now, but there is data that clearly shows the air pressure on the windows at cruise flight, at altitude, is far less than the pressure being applied to the inside of the window because of pressurization. This is why it is not humanly possible to open an aircraft door in flight, there is just no way to overcome the thousands of pounds of pressure being applied to the door. Aircraft doors are plug type, meaning the more pressure inside the cabin, the tighter the seal against the airframe. Door opening mechanisms will angle the door as it is opened so that it can swing through the opening to the outside of the aircraft on the ground.
Maybe more than you wanted to know...
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Here's an oddball question for Astro: could a windshield have failed?
There are no birds at 30,000 ft.
I will give you one trillion dollars if you can point to where I said anything about a bird. Ready...go to it!
Sorry, allow me to connect the dots for you. Airliners are designed to withstand direct hits from large birds at high rates of speed. This is the worst design case. Since there are no birds at the high altitude, it is unlikely to fail at high altitude. There, you can keep your money.
There are 2 stacked panes of glass in cockpit windows. Plus, the front windows are heated whenever the engines are running which gives added strength and resistance to breaking. Both panes are also laminated with plastic to prevent shattering and breakup. (I don't exactly how thick the individual panes are, but IIRC they are over 2" per pane according to the manufacturer, PPG.
The worst possible event would be a total failue of the front window. Any guesses as to which way the window would blow? In or out?
At altitude, if there was a total failure of a front cockpit window, the window would actually blow outward due to the 8.7 psi differential pressure from the cabin. I can't find the formula now, but there is data that clearly shows the air pressure on the windows at cruise flight, at altitude, is far less than the pressure being applied to the inside of the window because of pressurization. This is why it is not humanly possible to open an aircraft door in flight, there is just no way to overcome the thousands of pounds of pressure being applied to the door. Aircraft doors are plug type, meaning the more pressure inside the cabin, the tighter the seal against the airframe. Door opening mechanisms will angle the door as it is opened so that it can swing through the opening to the outside of the aircraft on the ground.
Maybe more than you wanted to know...
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Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
Having said that, I understand you would want to try anything to save yourself - but the experience I have trying to teach people to do just that very thing (Simulator joyride program) tells me the outcome would most likely not be a positive one.
Just my .02 as a pilot and instructor with 28 years of airline experience...
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
Having said that, I understand you would want to try anything to save yourself - but the experience I have trying to teach people to do just that very thing (Simulator joyride program) tells me the outcome would most likely not be a positive one.
Just my .02 as a pilot and instructor with 28 years of airline experience...
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Originally Posted By: 757guy
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
I saw a photo on Facebook of all places that showed a farm jack apparatus holding the door closed from the inside. Judging by the picture, I would assume the door swung in, but at the same time I think it would be harder to infiltrate if the door swung out.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
I saw a photo on Facebook of all places that showed a farm jack apparatus holding the door closed from the inside. Judging by the picture, I would assume the door swung in, but at the same time I think it would be harder to infiltrate if the door swung out.
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. The difference between an airliner and a single engine, general aviation craft are astronomical. One must juggle a huge amount of things in an aircraft that is far more complex and bulky and fast (and a lot less forgiving) than a Cessana 150.
Even planning a descent from an operating altitude of an airliner is much, much more complex than doing so from a small aircraft. If you're out for a joyride and you want to land a Cessna 150, you can do so on a whim - you get your clearance and you land the thing. Or, if you change your mind and want to carry on or want to do touch and gos, it's ridiculously easy. In an airliner? Thanks, I'll stay in the back.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
In such a scenario, I'd probably rather jump out the window than ride out a landing piloted by anyone who isn't a real airliner pilot.
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. The difference between an airliner and a single engine, general aviation craft are astronomical. One must juggle a huge amount of things in an aircraft that is far more complex and bulky and fast (and a lot less forgiving) than a Cessana 150.
Even planning a descent from an operating altitude of an airliner is much, much more complex than doing so from a small aircraft. If you're out for a joyride and you want to land a Cessna 150, you can do so on a whim - you get your clearance and you land the thing. Or, if you change your mind and want to carry on or want to do touch and gos, it's ridiculously easy. In an airliner? Thanks, I'll stay in the back.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
In such a scenario, I'd probably rather jump out the window than ride out a landing piloted by anyone who isn't a real airliner pilot.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
I saw a photo on Facebook of all places that showed a farm jack apparatus holding the door closed from the inside. Judging by the picture, I would assume the door swung in, but at the same time I think it would be harder to infiltrate if the door swung out.
When the door opening handle is first moved, the doors swings in slightly. The door hinges will then tilt the door slightly so that it can be pulled through the opening and swung to the outside of the aircraft. The door hinge has a gust lock that will prevent the door from swinging or being moved from high winds or gusts. There are also other doors that slide up into the ceiling on a track (767) but the principle of a plug type door is the same.
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: 757guy
.
Hope that clears up the fantasy...
I'm not sure why a number of you are so hostile towards exploring the potential situation, perhaps a very rare one, but nevertheless a possibility of having both pilots incapacitated.
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
As for the cockpit door being secured, that is true but it isn't impossible to break in if you really want to, this is pretty well known.
Not possible on aircraft doors that were installed after 9/11. They are hardened, secure and bulletproof.
I saw a photo on Facebook of all places that showed a farm jack apparatus holding the door closed from the inside. Judging by the picture, I would assume the door swung in, but at the same time I think it would be harder to infiltrate if the door swung out.
When the door opening handle is first moved, the doors swings in slightly. The door hinges will then tilt the door slightly so that it can be pulled through the opening and swung to the outside of the aircraft. The door hinge has a gust lock that will prevent the door from swinging or being moved from high winds or gusts. There are also other doors that slide up into the ceiling on a track (767) but the principle of a plug type door is the same.
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. The difference between an airliner and a single engine, general aviation craft are astronomical. One must juggle a huge amount of things in an aircraft that is far more complex and bulky and fast (and a lot less forgiving) than a Cessana 150.
Even planning a descent from an operating altitude of an airliner is much, much more complex than doing so from a small aircraft. If you're out for a joyride and you want to land a Cessna 150, you can do so on a whim - you get your clearance and you land the thing. Or, if you change your mind and want to carry on or want to do touch and gos, it's ridiculously easy. In an airliner? Thanks, I'll stay in the back.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
In such a scenario, I'd probably rather jump out the window than ride out a landing piloted by anyone who isn't a real airliner pilot.
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Managing an aircraft weighing 600,000 plus pounds (870,000 Max Takeoff Weight), planning a descent from 35,000 ft. to reach a point where you could descend via a glideslope to the runway, managing power and airspeed to within +/- 2 knots (pitch controls airspeed, power controls rate of descent), taking out crosswind corrections, touching down within the first 1-3000' of the runway, deloying the thrust reversers, braking, and slowing while maintaining runway centerline is nearly impossible for someone who has not flown a large jet before.
I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. The difference between an airliner and a single engine, general aviation craft are astronomical. One must juggle a huge amount of things in an aircraft that is far more complex and bulky and fast (and a lot less forgiving) than a Cessana 150.
Even planning a descent from an operating altitude of an airliner is much, much more complex than doing so from a small aircraft. If you're out for a joyride and you want to land a Cessna 150, you can do so on a whim - you get your clearance and you land the thing. Or, if you change your mind and want to carry on or want to do touch and gos, it's ridiculously easy. In an airliner? Thanks, I'll stay in the back.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
As I've said earlier, I agree that landing a big jet would be a long shot, but if I were on that plane I would want to at least make the effort to save myself.
In such a scenario, I'd probably rather jump out the window than ride out a landing piloted by anyone who isn't a real airliner pilot.
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Trajan said:
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye[/quote]
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye[/quote]
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
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Originally Posted By: Trajan
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Comforting to know.
Interesting that the lame stream media will never tell you this.
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Comforting to know.
Interesting that the lame stream media will never tell you this.
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Trajan said:
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Quote:
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
Not true. If you eat too many high carb foods for lunch that is the most dangerous part of your day. Heart disease is #1 killer. So going to McDonalds is wayyyy more dangerous than flying in a commercial jetliner.
Trajan said:
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
Quote:
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
Not true. If you eat too many high carb foods for lunch that is the most dangerous part of your day. Heart disease is #1 killer. So going to McDonalds is wayyyy more dangerous than flying in a commercial jetliner.
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Originally Posted By: 757guy
Trajan said:
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
[/quote]
Oh I know that. That's for those who watch too many airline disaster films where the hero breaks into the cockpit and lands the plane. And think it really is that easy. (you notice I put quote marks around the words.)
Trajan said:
Both pilots out. No way into the cockpit. Can't jump out the window since they ain't big enough or open.
So here is the "industry standard".
1: Pray
2: Bend way over.
3: Kiss your butt goodbye
The "industry standard" is you will be completely safe.
The odds are so very remote (10 to the -9th or more) that both pilots would be incapacitated. So remote that it has never happened. Think of all the flights every day, year after year, and it has never happened. One pilot may be incapacitated, it happens from time to time, but that's why there are 2 pilots.
You stand a much greater risk of death by driving to work everyday. You are much more likely to win the lottery than die in a plane crash.
You stand a much higher risk being struck by lightning than you do by being in a plane crash.
People ask me all the time: What's the most dangerous part of your job?
My answer: The drive to work.
[/quote]
Oh I know that. That's for those who watch too many airline disaster films where the hero breaks into the cockpit and lands the plane. And think it really is that easy. (you notice I put quote marks around the words.)
Last edited:
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