OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Gotta admit the price surprised me a bit, but assuming they last longer than the cheaper ones that weren't two-piece I probably won't complain too much.
Maintenance costs - your tolerance
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Gotta admit the price surprised me a bit, but assuming they last longer than the cheaper ones that weren't two-piece I probably won't complain too much.
BMW was my first experience with non reusable/ turnable rotors.
Upside the brakes were great as you said- bit real hard and with minimal pedal travel an excellent modularity.
Downside - 3K brake jobs.
I have a few requirements that a vehicle has to meet before I buy it, and some requirement that it has to maintain while I own it.
It has to have a ride that absorbs bumps in the road and comfortable seats, for my bad back. It has to be reliable. It has to have a decent sound system that plays from some mass storage device.
I will mod a vehicle to make it meet the requirements if I have to. But once I have one that meets the requirement I would rather spend a lot on preventive maintnce and have a very reliable vehicle, than spend a little for a AAA membership and get towed for free unexpectedly, and then have to get the vehicle fixed someplace because the weather is not good enough or my back is acting up.
I detest the idea of buying a AAA membership. To me it means that the vehicle is not reliable enough to expect it to not have to be towed.
I would much rather spend much more on preventative maintnce and then pay for a tow once every 15 years, than join AAA and neglect maintnce and have break downs much more often.
As an example, I will replace a vehicles 12 Volt battery before it fails, if I have a good background in how long it would normally last in that vehicle, and it has already used up 90 percent of that life expectancy.
It has to have a ride that absorbs bumps in the road and comfortable seats, for my bad back. It has to be reliable. It has to have a decent sound system that plays from some mass storage device.
I will mod a vehicle to make it meet the requirements if I have to. But once I have one that meets the requirement I would rather spend a lot on preventive maintnce and have a very reliable vehicle, than spend a little for a AAA membership and get towed for free unexpectedly, and then have to get the vehicle fixed someplace because the weather is not good enough or my back is acting up.
I detest the idea of buying a AAA membership. To me it means that the vehicle is not reliable enough to expect it to not have to be towed.
I would much rather spend much more on preventative maintnce and then pay for a tow once every 15 years, than join AAA and neglect maintnce and have break downs much more often.
As an example, I will replace a vehicles 12 Volt battery before it fails, if I have a good background in how long it would normally last in that vehicle, and it has already used up 90 percent of that life expectancy.
I find most folks aren’t too worried, since most either lease or trade them in pretty quick...
I’ve always looked at it -since it tends to be the next biggest thing we own (net to a house) that you should take the best care of it you can. I just had to get brakes done on my beater 15 year old Cobalt- the the mechanic was happy to see I came with Powerstop pads and coated rotors, Now, not everything I get for the cars are premium-but I try to make sure the cars have everything they need....
I think that it is one of the reasons I have had success with most of my stuff....
I’ve always looked at it -since it tends to be the next biggest thing we own (net to a house) that you should take the best care of it you can. I just had to get brakes done on my beater 15 year old Cobalt- the the mechanic was happy to see I came with Powerstop pads and coated rotors, Now, not everything I get for the cars are premium-but I try to make sure the cars have everything they need....
I think that it is one of the reasons I have had success with most of my stuff....
I would say I have an unreasonably high tolerance. It stems from my farming background and my employers practices. I am attached to all my vehicles, down to the **** lawnmower. If it needs something I just fix it and move on. I prefer a one time cost over a monthly payment. My employer just spent over $16k having an overhaul done on an old Freightliner truck with over a million miles on it. The trade off is we continue running it without the headache of emissions equipment on something newer. My parents Ford Taurus is coming up on 400k miles and is in the shop getting all new struts and a major tune up and several other items addressed. My mom doesn’t want to make another car payment and cost per mile has been very low on this car. She wanted to repair something she was familiar with instead of possibly buying a headache.
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Maintenance or repairs? I guess in the end it doesn’t matter if you’re keeping it longterm.
The luxury vehicles just cost more, parts and labor. Had a Lexus LS460, drove it for five years...set aside $1,200 a year for out of pocket repairs (not general maintenance, but repairs). And I’m a tech, I did all the repairs. But the parts were just so darn expensive...heater blower motor went once and it was almost $300. Aftermarket control arms cost me $700 and they needed to be done every 50k-60k miles or so. Never mind the “normal” stuff...8 spark plugs, 9 quarts of oil, big rotors and brakes, tires were more expensive. Great cars but everything costs a little more on the higher end stuff.
Now I have a Toyota Avalon, it’s like I died and went to heaven, in terms of cost to own. Three less quarts of oil, tires are cheaper, it doesn’t seem to even need repairs. Suspension is much simpler and lasts much longer. Gas mileage is much better.
I’d say Honda and Toyota are definitely more in the appliance/cheaper to own and maintain, class.
I have a Mercedes as well...I’m petrified of that thing, but so far it’s been very reliable and parts have been readily available. Which also surprised me. But again, it depends on which model of Mercedes we‘re talking about...if it were an S-Class?? Things would be different.
One thing I should note — I don’t tolerate unreliable vehicles. I never have and I never will. I won’t keep any vehicle if it’s going to nickel and dime me and not last. I like things that are made well and are reliable. I have quickly cut the cord on vehicles that I thought were low quality and would give me trouble. I bought a new 2018 Silverado and traded it in two years later with 52,000 miles, because it already was displaying things I really thought were unacceptable...misfires, shake on the highway. starter left me stranded, torque converter started acting up, frame started rusting right away, paint chipping, oil consumption. I’m not dealing with stuff like that at 50,000 miles.
The luxury vehicles just cost more, parts and labor. Had a Lexus LS460, drove it for five years...set aside $1,200 a year for out of pocket repairs (not general maintenance, but repairs). And I’m a tech, I did all the repairs. But the parts were just so darn expensive...heater blower motor went once and it was almost $300. Aftermarket control arms cost me $700 and they needed to be done every 50k-60k miles or so. Never mind the “normal” stuff...8 spark plugs, 9 quarts of oil, big rotors and brakes, tires were more expensive. Great cars but everything costs a little more on the higher end stuff.
Now I have a Toyota Avalon, it’s like I died and went to heaven, in terms of cost to own. Three less quarts of oil, tires are cheaper, it doesn’t seem to even need repairs. Suspension is much simpler and lasts much longer. Gas mileage is much better.
I’d say Honda and Toyota are definitely more in the appliance/cheaper to own and maintain, class.
I have a Mercedes as well...I’m petrified of that thing, but so far it’s been very reliable and parts have been readily available. Which also surprised me. But again, it depends on which model of Mercedes we‘re talking about...if it were an S-Class?? Things would be different.
One thing I should note — I don’t tolerate unreliable vehicles. I never have and I never will. I won’t keep any vehicle if it’s going to nickel and dime me and not last. I like things that are made well and are reliable. I have quickly cut the cord on vehicles that I thought were low quality and would give me trouble. I bought a new 2018 Silverado and traded it in two years later with 52,000 miles, because it already was displaying things I really thought were unacceptable...misfires, shake on the highway. starter left me stranded, torque converter started acting up, frame started rusting right away, paint chipping, oil consumption. I’m not dealing with stuff like that at 50,000 miles.
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We didn't own it from new, but my 2005 Silverado that was originally my bosses truck, then passed down to the survey crews, has only had one front and rear brake job (not at the same time) and one set of tires between 190,000kms and 328,000kms. 3 out of 4 ball joints were replaced but it didn't get a proper alignment so the tires with over 60k still have 70% tread but are pretty chopped and noisy.Some "interesting" comments in my scheduled maintenance musings thread brought to my attention that there seems to be some significant variance in the tolerance for maintenance costs for our vehicles.
Referenced thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/dealership-scheduled-maintenance-musings.336280/
Clearly, different vehicles will have different items that need to be addressed as part of what is considered "regular" maintenance. I know on BMW's that suspension components are something that are expected to be changed somewhat regularly, on other vehicles, they may last significantly longer, sometimes the duration of ownership.
My first SRT Grand Cherokee surprised me a bit when the front brakes only lasted 35,000Km. A front brake job was on the order of ~$800 dealer cost for just the parts, which Chrysler covered 50% of. My current 2020 was ordered with the High Performance brake option, which includes 2-piece rotors which are even more expensive:
https://www.jeeppartsoverstock.com/...d-for-Right-and-Left/66785843/68256679AC.html
so hopefully they last a bit longer. I also ordered the "summer" tires option, which I expect will wear rapidly. Both of these items contribute significantly to the driving experience this vehicle provides but there's clearly a cost associated with that performance.
It seems the spectrum is pretty broad. I was asked whether I was collecting bulk PYB and OEM filters, for what purpose it wasn't quite clear. The cost of a brake service was also called into question because apparently dealer labour rates shouldn't factor into that cost somehow
So this is a bit of a rabbit hole of personality and psyche insight that accompanies what each of us consider acceptable for "normal" maintenance costs.
So, if you feel comfortable, share your perspective, I'm curious more than anything.
I changed the original coolant and trans fluid at 311,000kms when I purchased the truck. I would say my boss is somewhat intolerant of maintenance costs (but repairs under a grand don't bother him at all, especially if the truck can be back on the road the same day).
I am more for maintenance because I buy worthless vehicles and drive them for years. (The 2005 truck is the newest I've owned, just traded my 83 Caprice after over 10 years driving it and it's the same age as I am).
I'd say when people are making payments on a $60,000 vehicle they're going to be much more surprised when it still requires maintenance.
If the vehicle is paid for, do the maintenance and keep making no payments for the next 10+ years. Personally I'm more apt to upgrade my cell phone every few years then a vehicle.
He got rid of the car and went with a Rav 4. Most of these guys do nothing to maintain their cars. Definitely not BITOG types.
I think most of us on this site are proactive when it comes to maintenance and service.
When my Caravan started three weeks ago with the tranny noise I knew something was up. Didn't drive it far and left it alone. Other people (non BITOGers) would be driving that thing hundreds more miles until it totally died and then tow it to the shop where the price to fix would probably be doubled.
When my Caravan started three weeks ago with the tranny noise I knew something was up. Didn't drive it far and left it alone. Other people (non BITOGers) would be driving that thing hundreds more miles until it totally died and then tow it to the shop where the price to fix would probably be doubled.
With the right car and diy my maintenance costs are nearly nothing - I spent less than $100 on my Civic last year, front brake pads and Gates timing belt. I buy clearance oil so that cost isn't even worth adding up when it takes around 3 quarts per change. I have Honda enthusiast friends so I just get their old wheels and tires when they get bored of them so i've never even bought tires for it lol.
I'm not really a frugal person, but the 100k i've put on the Honda it just hasn't really needed anything lol. Brakes probably would still have been fine for another year or so but decided to go ahead and do it while I was changing the Tbelt.
Other cars though...I probably wouldn't spend more than a few hundred a year on..
I'm not really a frugal person, but the 100k i've put on the Honda it just hasn't really needed anything lol. Brakes probably would still have been fine for another year or so but decided to go ahead and do it while I was changing the Tbelt.
Other cars though...I probably wouldn't spend more than a few hundred a year on..
There is a wide spectrum. Personally, I spend 10+ hours a week in my car just driving for work, so I'd like it to be a fun and enjoyable experience. Cars are a hobby of mine, so I'd rather tinker with and drive something I enjoy even though I could go buy something brand new tomorrow. My maintenance costs might be higher in theory because of the vehicles I drive, but less than others because I can DIY. I'm sure if I get to be older and want to tinker less, I'll lean towards the "reliable appliance" side of the spectrum. My mom for example drives a Honda Fit. Driving is just another chore/expense for her, and if the car needs anything other than gas it's just seen as a cost. I think there are a lot more people out there who just view driving as an expense compared to those who are enthusiasts.
For me, if it’s more than half the value of the car, then it’s time to take a serious look.
I turn my own wrenches, so that cost is almost all parts, no labor, which means that serious repairs are still “in budget” and worth doing.
E.g. A complete suspension rebuild on my wife’s Volvo XC. Shocks, struts, front and rear springs, front and rear spring seats, strut bearings, ball joints, control arms, inner and outer tie rods. Parts cost, $1,500. Alignment $150. Almost the value of the car. It’s a 2002 with 265,000 miles on it.
Worth doing? Absolutely.
That’s two payments on a new Volvo.
It also got a timing belt, tensioner, and pulley, new rear brakes, three engine mounts, a CV boot repair, hood struts, oil change, filters, transmission D&F and some rust mitigation on the rear control arms while it was up on the rack. All due.
That brought the total to just over $2,000 in parts. Roughly $2,200 total. That’s a big bill for most folks.
Still worth it. She has a tight driving, good car that runs perfectly and looks good. For $2,000. If we get a couple years more life from the car, then it was a bargain.
I’m always amazed by the thought process of “what!? A thousand bucks to fix it? That’s ridiculous!” Followed by the rationalization of spending 40 or 50 THOUSAND on a new car. The interest alone on the new loan was more than the repair. Add in taxes, depreciation, insurance and the decision made no sense.
But people think they’re “saving” on the repair by avoiding it.
M’kay....
I turn my own wrenches, so that cost is almost all parts, no labor, which means that serious repairs are still “in budget” and worth doing.
E.g. A complete suspension rebuild on my wife’s Volvo XC. Shocks, struts, front and rear springs, front and rear spring seats, strut bearings, ball joints, control arms, inner and outer tie rods. Parts cost, $1,500. Alignment $150. Almost the value of the car. It’s a 2002 with 265,000 miles on it.
Worth doing? Absolutely.
That’s two payments on a new Volvo.
It also got a timing belt, tensioner, and pulley, new rear brakes, three engine mounts, a CV boot repair, hood struts, oil change, filters, transmission D&F and some rust mitigation on the rear control arms while it was up on the rack. All due.
That brought the total to just over $2,000 in parts. Roughly $2,200 total. That’s a big bill for most folks.
Still worth it. She has a tight driving, good car that runs perfectly and looks good. For $2,000. If we get a couple years more life from the car, then it was a bargain.
I’m always amazed by the thought process of “what!? A thousand bucks to fix it? That’s ridiculous!” Followed by the rationalization of spending 40 or 50 THOUSAND on a new car. The interest alone on the new loan was more than the repair. Add in taxes, depreciation, insurance and the decision made no sense.
But people think they’re “saving” on the repair by avoiding it.
M’kay....
This is a good point as well. Big money repairs depend on the condition of the vehicle and whether it is worth sinking money into keeping in mind the replacement cost of the vehicle itself.
If the car is falling apart and is near the end of it's life with rust, worn drivetrain, etc, then it's not worth it. If the car has a lot of life left, and the cost to repair is miniscule in comparison to the replacement cost, then it makes sense.
One example is a 2000 Civic I helped a friend fix up. He got it for $1500, it had 130k miles, zero rust, always garaged. It was cheap transportation to help him build up his bank account after making payments on a truck that he couldn't really afford and later sold. He probably put $500 into it with maintenance parts such as brakes, timing belt, radiator and a few other things, but it has been very reliable and now has 170k. $2000 well spent overall, and with the savings over owning his truck he already has enough saved up to buy a newer vehicle if he needed to.
I also have a customer with a similar car, a 2007 Civic, that is ready for the scrap pile. It has over 200k, and it seems every week something else goes due to corrosion, age, or wear. With the amount they spend on keeping it alive they could've already paid for something used in better shape.
Sounds similar to what I did, I snapped up my '99 Camry when I found out it was from the south, and was rust free (people were ignoring it on CL as the paint was shot). Small money and all is well, still has a bit of life left to it.
But rust is showing up on all of my fleet so at some point they are going to reach that point where replacement is wise. I might be in the minority here but I would not mind sending a car off with a cracked windshield, tires near the wear limit, worn brakes, and every other component somehow evenly worn and run to its end. Pristine condition cars are great, but there used to be no end to the ads & stores were a series of repairs led to the straw that broke the camel's back, and then the owner regretted not sending it off before all that. Not sure where the balance is on that one, and everyone is going to be different on it (currently I'm ignoring several rattles in the cars).
I dont think todays Camry will roll till 279k ....they dont make them like they use to....My 91 Camry with a 4 cyl was the best car I ever bought .....I sold to a kid as his first car with 232k miles and it lasted him through HS. I see you have a 89 Mazda truck....ive seen those run to 400k miles with no engine work. I think there is a demand for the small cheap truck market....Id love to see Mazda make them again....My old GF in 1992 had an blue ex cab model with over 200k miles with an automatic trans she had bought used with 100k miles....First I should say thanks for posting about the two piece rotors. I like expanding my knowledge on other brands other than Ford and Toyota and had never seen such design.
And as for the costs everyone should know by now I’ll fix an old car till it falls to the ground literally lol. We have a lot of older cars the ones we have spent the most on are my Beetle which is my project and our 2004 Camry with 279,000 we spent over $1000 rebuilding the front suspension on the Camry and we still drive it in fact it is doing great and rides like it rolled off the showroom floor now. Just have to do the dog bone motor mount. We don’t plan on getting rid of it anytime soon. It’s also been hit four times and fixed each time so it’s lived kind of a rough life. Other than that it’s been great and very reliable only had to do general stuff we don’t really have limits on costs. Our Ford Escape has been great besides brake calipers and hoses. Have to do valve cover gaskets on it this week because both are seeping but no issues other than that. The Ford van has a major vacuum leak but I can’t find where hose goes still and ball joints it blows through those all the time which is a common Ford thing for that time period. Haven’t had any major issues still has original parts like water pump and starter and alternator. Moms 2017 Camry nothing other than the serpentine belt started fraying shortly after we bought it and they denied fixing it so I had to do it with my own money which made me angry. The Jeep we plan to get a new engine for because simply one reason it’s old and has real keys because my dad was ready to scrap it otherwise. Sorry for the lengthy reply about my costs I like everyone knowing about my extensive collection of parts and vehicles. And my dads truck it gets fixed all the time because he relies on it for work and is on his own if it breaks down.
I’m definitely proactive when it comes to maintenance of my vehicles- including my two ZTR mowers. I believe European manufacturers design vehicles with the assumption that their owners will maintain them by following the manufacturers’ service schedule. In contrast I believe that US and Asian manufacturers assume that the owners of their vehicles will not be nearly as diligent about maintenance.
AutoMechanic
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You are exactly right. I don’t know if our 2017 will go that long without some work. My Brother- In Law had a 1989 Camry that was excellent he loved it. An old lady not paying attention slammed into the back of it and bent the frame he was bummed out about it and I was too. Great car. Yes my Mazda has been excellent to me only had to do thermostat and brake calipers and hoses. And a fuel pump excellent vehicle only 108k on it and I’m the 4th owner. I have all records back to 1989 and know the original owners family. All the owners have been mechanics.
In general, most people don't wake up each day and say to themselves "man, I really want to pay to fix something on my car today!". Most people these days see cars as appliances and just want to gas and go. Tolerance for anything beyond gas is very low. If a light bulb goes out, it is the end of the world and turns in to a minor life altering hassle. Getting routine maintenance can turn in to a one or two day affair involving schedule changes and possibly even loaner cars or ride sharing (for those that don't DIY). A major repair can send people over the edge and seemingly "ruin their life".
I have a friend with a 5 year old vehicle that they purchased new. The car has needed nothing but routine maintenance, brakes, and tires for the past 5 years. Recently the vehicle started having a problem with the tailgate not unlatching. The dealer has tried fixing it three or four times now (work paid for by an extended warranty) but has been unable to totally resolve the problem. The next fix attempt has an estimated customer cost NOT covered under the extended warranty of approximately $1,300 with no guarantee it will resolve the issue. Personally, I would have zero tolerance for this and get rid of the car. My friend likes the car and is considering paying for the work. If the $1,300 repair doesn't solve the problem, they will then trade (and possibly trade it for a new vehicle of the same exact make and model.)
I have a friend with a 5 year old vehicle that they purchased new. The car has needed nothing but routine maintenance, brakes, and tires for the past 5 years. Recently the vehicle started having a problem with the tailgate not unlatching. The dealer has tried fixing it three or four times now (work paid for by an extended warranty) but has been unable to totally resolve the problem. The next fix attempt has an estimated customer cost NOT covered under the extended warranty of approximately $1,300 with no guarantee it will resolve the issue. Personally, I would have zero tolerance for this and get rid of the car. My friend likes the car and is considering paying for the work. If the $1,300 repair doesn't solve the problem, they will then trade (and possibly trade it for a new vehicle of the same exact make and model.)
We love driving and owning our 240s and put about 45k/year on them. I enjoy performing all the basic maintenance, the washes and waxes, etc. Nothing more satisfying than a 20k service on a nice Spring day!
As long as the cars provide excellent utility and reliability I will maintain them at whatever expense is required. Fortunately all three of our cars are inexpensive to keep in top shape.
As long as the cars provide excellent utility and reliability I will maintain them at whatever expense is required. Fortunately all three of our cars are inexpensive to keep in top shape.
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