M1 ESP X2: A 0W-20 that advertises protection on par w/ higher viscosity oils

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Technosynthese. LIke a Motul 6100 range. Keeps the cost below 10e /Litre Would not the M1 EP be "better" being a real PAO syn? If aftertreatment SAPS requirement are ignored?

I do not understand this. Can you clarify?

M! EP is a real sythetyci oil, this ESP is not. M1 EP had been 70-80% PAO just a couple years ago. Not saying PAO is the last word, but M1EP meets the Euro requirement for Vollsynthetisch Labeling. How is this new Mobil ESP labeled in Germany and France since its really a " technosynthese " Semi synthetic product

No, Mobil1 EP is not real synthetic. Amount of PAO in EP depends on grade, 0W20 has most amount, others less, and currently stands at 30-40%. .

That statement is incorrect by my current documentation. Please cite the document. per XoM MSDS_803390 dated 20 OCT 2017 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 60 - < 70% Less than past but still majority Synthetic base stocks. I am no big PAO fan - its just a cost analysis. Majority Group III alkane synthetics should be priced in the 5e/litre range not 10e/litre Traditionally highest performing Synthetics have AWAYS been group iv + v blends. Now its changed if there is money to be made for big oil. I ask they pass a good chunk of these savings on to the consumer. Any make pamphlets available at point-of-sale describing what the new synthetics are and how the definition has change and why.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

That statement is incorrect by my current documentation. Please cite the document. per XoM MSDS_803390 dated 20 OCT 2017 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 60 - < 70% Less than past but still majority Synthetic base stocks. I am no big PAO fan - its just a cost analysis. Majority Group III alkane synthetics should be priced in the 5e/litre range not 10e/litre Traditionally highest performing Synthetics have AWAYS been group iv + v blends. Now its changed if there is money to be made for big oil. I ask they pass a good chunk of these savings on to the consumer. Any make pamphlets available at point-of-sale describing what the new synthetics are and how the definition has change and why.

First of all, that PDS is 3 years old. Maybe I was looking at 5W30 that I am using in Toyota. But who cares? FINAL product is what matters. Again, Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 was majority Group III, yet had better performance than all Gr IV or V oils. You are making assumptions how much it should cost and how it should perform. Motul when it was PAO was perfect example of average oil. Considering that you think that cost is absolute driver of what Mobil1 (or any other company) is going to offer, and that PAO "traditionally" is better performer, Mobil1 0W20 EP would be relabeled as VW508/509, but it is not. Mobil1 5W30 EP has hefty amount of PAO, new Mobil1 5W30 ESP does not, yet ESP is superior oil in every aspect.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

We Don't know if its "superior" by reading just the approval list. VW 508 00 is a new spec and nothing special - very close to ILSAC if not the same. Cost is always and issue, Are you implying Di-ester and PAO are on par cost wise with the glut of GTL alkanes? All commercial PCMO are developed for minimal cost, likely with spec performance met but rarely exceeded. when GTL bases can meet aviation spec, I might become a believer PRI-QPL-AS5780/HPC MIL-PRF-23699-HTS

 

[kschachn]

Aviation specs have zero relevance to automotive approvals. And can you detail the requirements of VW 508 00 approval so we can make an informed comparison with other requirements?

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

That statement is incorrect by my current documentation. Please cite the document. per XoM MSDS_803390 dated 20 OCT 2017 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 60 - < 70% Less than past but still majority Synthetic base stocks. I am no big PAO fan - its just a cost analysis. Majority Group III alkane synthetics should be priced in the 5e/litre range not 10e/litre Traditionally highest performing Synthetics have AWAYS been group iv + v blends. Now its changed if there is money to be made for big oil. I ask they pass a good chunk of these savings on to the consumer. Any make pamphlets available at point-of-sale describing what the new synthetics are and how the definition has change and why.

First of all, that PDS is 3 years old. Maybe I was looking at 5W30 that I am using in Toyota. But who cares? FINAL product is what matters. Again, Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 was majority Group III, yet had better performance than all Gr IV or V oils. You are making assumptions how much it should cost and how it should perform. Motul when it was PAO was perfect example of average oil. Considering that you think that cost is absolute driver of what Mobil1 (or any other company) is going to offer, and that PAO "traditionally" is better performer, Mobil1 0W20 EP would be relabeled as VW508/509, but it is not. Mobil1 5W30 EP has hefty amount of PAO, new Mobil1 5W30 ESP does not, yet ESP is superior oil in every aspect.

The MSDS_962490 on Exxon-Mobil's site is dated -3 Dec 2019 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 20 - < 30% Still has a chunk of PAO

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by UG_Passat

Originally Posted by edyvw

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

That statement is incorrect by my current documentation. Please cite the document. per XoM MSDS_803390 dated 20 OCT 2017 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 60 - < 70% Less than past but still majority Synthetic base stocks. I am no big PAO fan - its just a cost analysis. Majority Group III alkane synthetics should be priced in the 5e/litre range not 10e/litre Traditionally highest performing Synthetics have AWAYS been group iv + v blends. Now its changed if there is money to be made for big oil. I ask they pass a good chunk of these savings on to the consumer. Any make pamphlets available at point-of-sale describing what the new synthetics are and how the definition has change and why.

First of all, that PDS is 3 years old. Maybe I was looking at 5W30 that I am using in Toyota. But who cares? FINAL product is what matters. Again, Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 was majority Group III, yet had better performance than all Gr IV or V oils. You are making assumptions how much it should cost and how it should perform. Motul when it was PAO was perfect example of average oil. Considering that you think that cost is absolute driver of what Mobil1 (or any other company) is going to offer, and that PAO "traditionally" is better performer, Mobil1 0W20 EP would be relabeled as VW508/509, but it is not. Mobil1 5W30 EP has hefty amount of PAO, new Mobil1 5W30 ESP does not, yet ESP is superior oil in every aspect.

The MSDS_962490 on Exxon-Mobil's site is dated -3 Dec 2019 1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 20 - < 30% Still has a chunk of PAO

That is what I was implying to him earlier that it is around 30-40%, but it seems it is less.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

We Don't know if its "superior" by reading just the approval list. VW 508 00 is a new spec and nothing special - very close to ILSAC if not the same. Cost is always and issue, Are you implying Di-ester and PAO are on par cost wise with the glut of GTL alkanes? All commercial PCMO are developed for minimal cost, likely with spec performance met but rarely exceeded. when GTL bases can meet aviation spec, I might become a believer PRI-QPL-AS5780/HPC MIL-PRF-23699-HTS

You can go to Lubrizol and compare to API though, not ILSAC. There is nothing special about ILSAC except MPG requirement. VW 508.00/509.00 has VERY stringent wear requirement. And yes, you can figure out is it superior or not by looking at approval list if you know what approvals consist of.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by edvw

You can go to Lubrizol and compare to API though, not ILSAC. There is nothing special about ILSAC except MPG requirement. VW 508.00/509.00 has VERY stringent wear requirement. And yes, you can figure out is it superior or not by looking at approval list if you know what approvals consist of.

https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubrica...Additives/ACEA/Relative-Performance-Tool

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

when GTL bases can meet aviation spec, I might become a believer PRI-QPL-AS5780/HPC MIL-PRF-23699-HTS

Then you should be using an ester-based oil then, since the aviation oils you revere are ester base stocks. (many are polyol ester)

 

[Tom NJ]

All AS5780 and Mil-PRF-23699 jet turbine engine oils are based entirely on polyol esters, which constitute about 94-97% of the formulations. The balance is primarily antiwear (phosphates), antioxidants (aminic), corrosion inhibitors (triazoles), and antifoam (silicone) additives. They are ashless and contain no detergents, dispersants, ZDDP, metallic additives, or VIIs. Viscosity wise they would be a 0W-8.

 

[spiderbypass]

The 508.00 vw oils are the only specification that has majority of pao basestock overall for all the oils. 99 percent of Motul 8100 oils are group three base stocks except the 0w20 508 oil.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Would not the M1 EP be "better" being a real PAO syn? If aftertreatment SAPS requirement are ignored?

M1EP doesn't carry VW508 - So no.

Actually M1 ESP 0w20 does meet VW 508.

 

[edyvw]

Actually M1 ESP 0w20 does meet VW 508.

ESP and EP are two different lines.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Actually M1 ESP 0w20 does meet VW 508.

The oil in question was EP, not ESP.

 

[930.engineering]

Originally Posted by edvw

You can go to Lubrizol and compare to API though, not ILSAC. There is nothing special about ILSAC except MPG requirement. VW 508.00/509.00 has VERY stringent wear requirement. And yes, you can figure out is it superior or not by looking at approval list if you know what approvals consist of.

https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubrica...Additives/ACEA/Relative-Performance-Tool

View attachment 21086

Did nobody notice VW 508 00 isn't VW 508 88?
VW 508 00 is VW's latest FE/0W-20 approval while VW 508 88
is dedicated for use in some 2nd and 3rd world countries. Not
the first time both get mistaken though.
.

 

[wemay]

Did nobody notice VW 508 00 isn't VW 508 88?
VW 508 00 is VW's latest FE/0W-20 approval while VW 508 88
is dedicated for use in some 2nd and 3rd world countries. Not
the first time both get mistaken though.
.

Very true

 

[palmerwmd]

No ACEA A3? then its not "protecting as well as higher viscosity oils" as M1 0w-40 ( and many other 40 weights and a small number of 30 weights) carry ACEA A3, which of course as we all know is HTHS equal to, or better than, 3.5

 

[spiderbypass]

I bought used Toyota Prius within the last year with 172 thousand miles. Previous owner used Valvoline 0w20 HM synthetic and I used that for first two oil changes… consumed about a quart between 4500 mile changes. Just put in Mobil 1 0w20 esp and haven’t needed to add oil after 1600 miles. Always feel VW specified oils are always top shelf because they often are made to compensate for an engineering defect on their vehicles that are generally high maintenance…