M1 AFE 0W16, 5178 mi OCI, 2021 Toyota Sienna Hybrid A25A-FXS

[OVERKILL]

Found someone over at the RAV4 forums with the same motor as OP (A25A-FXS) that posted a UOA showing 5+% fuel dilution at a 5K mile interval. Might be two isolated incidents but as a fellow owner of this motor, my interest is surely peaked.

View attachment 98378

Anyone having fuel dilution issues?

www.rav4world.com

And you'll notice how much higher his viscosity was than yours... Indicating just how much more fuel you have than he does. Scary.

 

[loneryder]

I wouldn't want to buy that vehicle when you get rid of it!

 

[e30m20]

Did you consider that 8.5km drive a long trip? That is far from being a long trip.

No, I do consider that a long trip. I'm explaining what was done immediately before this oil was taken out and sampled. And potentially a reason why the fuel content is high.

Is it possible that this level of fuel is transient in nature? With a long drive with the ICE coming up and maintaining at operating temperature, I would expect this value to drop as the engine oil will be warm enough to dissipate the fuel.

Certainly a lot of doom and gloom on here, yet I have read in many other posts how little weight people give to UOA's of low-mileage motors.

I am happy to have the discussion about the UOA results and change my driving style going forward for the long-term health of this engine but I also take comfort in the fact that Toyota engineers have considered this factor when recommending both the weight and the OCI.

I have bought a few jugs of M1 AFE on sale at Canadian Tire so I don't have an issue with shorter OCIs and perhaps switching to TGMO once my supply of M1 AFE is exhausted. As a budding engine oil nerd I do look forward to the next UOA though and trust me, that sample will be taken after a long highway drive!

 

[e30m20]

I wouldn't want to buy that vehicle when you get rid of it!

I'll have you know I baby this vehicle and I expect it to retain much of its value. You must live in a world where you only buy new cars or somehow expect any used car you have to come with a detailed UOA history.

This car is less than year old and some of you speak as if it is already written off and done for

 

[DirectRejection]

I am reading in shock as some of the people on this board who I have the most respect for are subjecting the OP to scare tactics.

You all have a wild hair somewhere about viscosity and fuel dilution.

NONE of you experts have personal experience with this engine.

Look again. OP is still breaking in his engine. And Blackstone is still guessing about fuel dilution.

20 ppm Fe/28 ppm Cu/68 ppm Si on a severe service engine with 10k miles on it.

The BITOG experts say the sky is falling. I say shame, shame, shame.

 

[Ignatius]

Toyota engineers have considered this factor when recommending both the weight and the OCI.

I must disagree with you on this point, the oil grade was most likely used to contribute to lower emissions so to comply with the ever-increasing environmentalist regulations. That and to maximize fuel economy ratings.

Also I surmise that Toyota uses their recommended oil change interval for bean counter savings with the Toyota Care program. I would say that based on your driving habits you qualify for the severe service schedule which is 3,000 to 5,000 miles.

 

[blufeb95]

If it were mine I'd probably step up to 0W-20 and change every 5000km

 

[ATex7239]

I'll have you know I baby this vehicle and I expect it to retain much of its value. You must live in a world where you only buy new cars or somehow expect any used car you have to come with a detailed UOA history.

This car is less than year old and some of you speak as if it is already written off and done for

Far from it. It will be fine as long as you change a few things now… I’d avoid extended drains and take vehicle out for longer trips once or twice a week. Also I would stop hypermilling and just drive it normally. It already gets excellent gas mileage as is.

 

[edyvw]

I have 200,000 miles of experience with the M20A-FKS/M20A-FXS engine. ie the 2.0L version, hybrid & non hybrid.

Dynamic Force D-4S is solid, my friend. In my view fuel dilution is not an issue.

Look at your wear numbers ! M1 AFE 0w16 SP GF-6B.5K mile OCI. 5 quart jug at Walmart. Decent oil filter. Perfect.

UOA is analysis of an oil not engine. Different engines have different wear under best circumstances. Doesn’t mean anything unless there is spike in unusual metals like copper etc.
There is nothing good with this. It indicates that OP should exercise engine more.
The effects of fuel dilution will show up down the road.

 

[PimTac]

Me: “Did you consider that 8.5km drive a long trip? That is far from being a long trip.”

No, I do consider that a long trip. I'm explaining what was done immediately before this oil was taken out and sampled. And potentially a reason why the fuel content is high.

Just to reiterate, 8.5 km is not a long trip. Add a zero at the end and we can agree. This kind of driving is the reason for your fuel dilution.

 

[webfors]

Wowzers, haven't been here in a while and this is the first UOA I've looked at since back.

Too thin. I would put 0w30 in there if it were my van. I am looking at a Sienna hybrid to replace one of our autos.

 

[haggler]

The thing is this is a hybrid so the engine hours on the oil is not as high as say a NA non hybrid for the same mileage. Which tells me one of two things depending how many oil changes you've done: either the engine is still breaking in or the viscosity drop is contributing to additional wear.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Flashpoint of 265 and a fuel % of 6.0 you have a fuel dilution problem.

 

[e30m20]

Me: “Did you consider that 8.5km drive a long trip? That is far from being a long trip.”




Just to reiterate, 8.5 km is not a long trip. Add a zero at the end and we can agree. This kind of driving is the reason for your fuel dilution.

I DO NOT consider it a long trip. I missed a crucial word there.

 

[edyvw]

OP, install block heater! It will help you reach higher oil temperatures faster.

As for those that think these are scare tactics; I mean what do we have out of this?
Or My Cousin Vinny? “The way you handled that judge?”

 

[OVERKILL]

I am reading in shock as some of the people on this board who I have the most respect for are subjecting the OP to scare tactics.

You all have a wild hair somewhere about viscosity and fuel dilution.

NONE of you experts have personal experience with this engine.

Look again. OP is still breaking in his engine. And Blackstone is still guessing about fuel dilution.

20 ppm Fe/28 ppm Cu/68 ppm Si on a severe service engine with 10k miles on it.

The BITOG experts say the sky is falling. I say shame, shame, shame.

The flashpoint is at 265F! Yes, Blackstone is guessing, and their guess is almost universally way low compared to labs that use GC. This is a MASSIVE drop in flashpoint and the amount of fuel in this oil is considerable. Yes, that's something the OP should be wary of and adjust his/her driving and oil change schedule appropriately to correct that.

 

[DirectRejection]

The flashpoint is at 265F! Yes, Blackstone is guessing, and their guess is almost universally way low compared to labs that use GC. This is a MASSIVE drop in flashpoint and the amount of fuel in this oil is considerable. Yes, that's something the OP should be wary of and adjust his/her driving and oil change schedule appropriately to correct that.

What is it that has you concerned that Toyota did not take into account a long time ago ? Or ILSAC ? or SAE ?

Car Care Nut says use 0W16 and go with 5k OCI. This is a podcasting Certified Toyota mechanic, who has extensive experience taking apart and rebuilding this exact engine.

Whatever happens to viscosity, with fuel dilution, oxidative thickenening, or any variables, the wear numbers are very acceptable. Then consider that the engine is still breaking in.

I respectfully disagree with every gosh darn one of you. And I warn you (Direct shakes his finger in disgust.) I am at 15k accrued miles on a series of 20k mile OCIs/UOAs coming soon to an oil website near you. My experience with these issues, real and imagined, is only building.

 

[OVERKILL]

What is it that has you concerned that Toyota did not take into account a long time ago ? Or ILSAC ? or SAE ?

I mean, we have a lawsuit by the Chinese government against Honda for this very problem, it's a REAL problem (fuel dilution).

Car Care Nut says use 0W16 and go with 5k OCI. This is a podcasting Certified Toyota mechanic, who has extensive experience taking apart and rebuilding this exact engine.

That's wonderful, but that doesn't address the issue about this level of fuel dilution.

Whatever happens to viscosity, with fuel dilution, oxidative thickenening, or any variables, the wear numbers are very acceptable. Then consider that the engine is still breaking in.

Other than perhaps crappier than normal ring seal due to seating, what are you implying the relationship is between the 265F flashpoint and break-in?

PPM metals in a UOA are not a substitute for tear-downs, which has been discussed many, MANY times on here.

I respectfully disagree with every gosh darn one of you. And I warn you (Direct shakes his finger in disgust.) I am at 15k accrued miles on a series of 20k mile OCIs/UOAs coming soon to an oil website near you. My experience with these issues, real and imagined, is only building.

OK, but unless you also have a 265F flashpoint I'm unsure what you think your long OCI is proving here? Are you also going to perform some tear-downs for us?

 

[Artem]

Car Care Nut says use 0W16 and go with 5k OCI. This is a podcasting Certified Toyota mechanic, who has extensive experience taking apart and rebuilding this exact engine.

Ain’t no way that car nut guy has taken apart one of these engines let alone rebuilt it and put it back into service. Why did it require a rebuild in the first place???

Only time will tell how the next few oil changes will look for this engine but I wouldn’t be surprised if we happen to have come across a defective new engine that has either a piston ring issue or a leaky fuel injector. This can’t be just from the short trips. That’s terrible.

 

[DirectRejection]

Ain’t no way that car nut guy has taken apart one of these engines let alone rebuilt it and put it back into service. Why did it require a rebuild in the first place???

Only time will tell how the next few oil changes will look for this engine but I wouldn’t be surprised if we happen to have come across a defective new engine that has either a piston ring issue or a leaky fuel injector. This can’t be just from the short trips. That’s terrible.

Watch his videos. Isn't it fair to do that before calling him a liar ? It doesn't take long to realize that this guy is legit and one of the best auto podcasters put there.

Additionally Car Care Nut (not Scotty or anyone else) specifically states that 5k OCIs with spec'd viscosity, 0W16 is the solution here. He sees a lot of late model Camry Hybrids at his dealership.