Lucid Air - The new Buick?

[SwampSurvivor]

Reminds me of the while "Landau" roofs of my childhood.

View attachment 69683

I really hate those landau roofs. SO MANY Panthers ended up with them. I passed on a few cars because of the awkward roof treatment.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

That really wasn’t what it was about, the model name, it was about the high 133 mpg e number. As for moving on from the Prius that could be a new topic in “vehicles.”
Not sure if anyone has a higher mpge number, I remember maybe 134. Leave it to Toyota to post a high efficiency number based on engineering if they want to.

What are you meaning by MPG e number?

Have not heard anyone get excited about a Prius in a long time.

 

[Job]

Some good info here if you can stomach Cammisa. The lead engineer for the Tesla Model S is Lucid's CEO and CTO.

Great info, but I am left with I am sitting in a skateboard almost buried in lithium batteries, and that’s a lot of complexity for being “simple.”
One day all in for EV, the next day all in for hoopdie, and on it goes.

 

[Job]

What are you meaning by MPG e number?

Have not heard anyone get excited about a Prius in a long time.

See post #29. Ask that guy. You mean you find fault with a space between letters? You do see I also wrote mpge as well? I mean, really?
The Prius popularity is another topic. But they are very popular, maybe the hearing needs amplifying?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I think people have largely moved on from a Prius.

Another member here did a fine job of explaining how that ship may have sailed, other cars offering similar utility.

The Prius has been an incredible success for Toyota. And no one does hybrids like Toyota.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

See post #29. Ask that guy. You mean you find fault with a space between letters? You do see I also wrote mpge as well? I mean, really?
The Prius popularity is another topic. But they are very popular, maybe the hearing needs amplifying?

I'll simplify it for you, I do not know what "eMPG" or whatever you are saying is and would like you to clarify, if you know.

If you don't know, that's okay, just say so.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

The Prius has been an incredible success for Toyota. And no one does hybrids like Toyota.

I am aware of this, they are made at a different plant.. we make Hybrids and ICE presently, they are dominating in sales. (Well, at least one is. No Priuses, that's either Japan or Kentucky maybe. I do not know, exactly.) New vehicle will likely be an all-electric and be two models side-by-side, interesting to see if 100% electric or if they go a hybrid route.. I'm with you.

Here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/wheels/features/prius-glad-to-turn-20/?amp

Toyota’s Prius was the leader of the hybrids for a long time until other automakers started offering competitive products with more conventional styling. Getty Images

See my avatar?

 

[Job]

I'll simplify it for you, I do not know what "eMPG" or whatever you are saying is and would like you to clarify, if you know.

If you don't know, that's okay, just say so.

Again, see Post #29. It’s not what do I mean by mpge, it isn’t my term.

 

[JeffKeryk]

MPGe stands for "miles per gallon equivalent". It is the EPA's method of rating EV mileage. I would say it can be used for EV efficiency comparison.
More from Kelly Blue Book:

"When the EPA devised MPGe in the early 2000s, the government agency calculated that 33.7 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity is comparable to a gallon of fuel in terms of its energy content.

True, pulling 33.7 kWh of electricity from the grid in a place dependent on coal power is not quite the same as using wind power. But such an average makes for a more reasonable comparison applicable to drivers.

For example, a car that uses 33.7 kWh of electricity to travel 100 miles rates 100 MPGe."

 

[edyvw]

I like the interior much better than Tesla’s. The range is impressive. The HP in the upper models is impressive as well.

2024 Lucid Air Review, Pricing, and Specs

The 2024 Lucid Air's big battery and compact motors—both designed in-house—allow it to deliver unbeatable range and heroic acceleration performance.

www.caranddriver.com

4 guys hanging out at the corner can get together and in a couple of hours create a better interior than Tesla's.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

MPGe stands for "miles per gallon equivalent". It is the EPA's method of rating EV mileage. I would say it can be used for EV efficiency comparison.
More from Kelly Blue Book:

"When the EPA devised MPGe in the early 2000s, the government agency calculated that 33.7 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity is comparable to a gallon of fuel in terms of its energy content.

True, pulling 33.7 kWh of electricity from the grid in a place dependent on coal power is not quite the same as using wind power. But such an average makes for a more reasonable comparison applicable to drivers.

For example, a car that uses 33.7 kWh of electricity to travel 100 miles rates 100 MPGe."

Thank you, @JeffKeryk

 

[OVERKILL]

Thank you, @JeffKeryk

It's an attempt to correlate a legacy parlance (mpg) to something understandable for "average Joe" with the shift to EV's, and it's as awkward as it sounds. It's the same with the charging in "Mph" which is also just as goofy.

It's super easy to learn the proper units. In the case of EV's, this is all relative to the kWh, so:
- Efficiency is miles per kWh. This is just like Mpg, but batteries hold kWh, not gallons. The more miles per kWh you can go, the more efficient the vehicle
- Capacity is measured in kWh. Your battery holds x number of kWh rather than gallons. Bigger batteries, like bigger fuel tanks, will take more kWh to fill, and thus cost more. This, like your gas tank size, when coupled with your efficiency, dictates your range.

So, when you charge an EV, you are buying kWh to put in the battery, just like you'd be buying gasoline to put in the tank.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

It's an attempt to correlate a legacy parlance (mpg) to something understandable for "average Joe" with the shift to EV's, and it's as awkward as it sounds. It's the same with the charging in "Mph" which is also just as goofy.

It's super easy to learn the proper units. In the case of EV's, this is all relative to the kWh, so:
- Efficiency is miles per kWh. This is just like Mpg, but batteries hold kWh, not gallons. The more miles per kWh you can go, the more efficient the vehicle
- Capacity is measured in kWh. Your battery holds x number of kWh rather than gallons. Bigger batteries, like bigger fuel tanks, will take more kWh to fill, and thus cost more. This, like your gas tank size, when coupled with your efficiency, dictates your range.

So, when you charge an EV, you are buying kWh to put in the battery, just like you'd be buying gasoline to put in the tank.

Makes sense.

I'm learning Calculus, as well.

 

[AZjeff]

Is the m/kWh drop going uphill in an EV similar to or more or less than the drop in mpg you see with ICE? Without getting all worried about fine details, say if your F150 is running at 18 mpg (instantaneous) at the base of the climb and 9 mpg while on the climb would a Lightning showing 50 m/kWh show 25 on the climb? I guess maybe what I'm asking is an EV drivetrain more efficient than an ICE?

Forgive me , I'm still trying to understand where the electricity goes when it hits the end of the wire.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Is the m/kWh drop going uphill in an EV similar to or more or less than the drop in mpg you see with ICE? Without getting all worried about fine details, say if your F150 is running at 18 mpg (instantaneous) at the base of the climb and 9 mpg while on the climb would a Lightning showing 50 m/kWh show 25 on the climb? I guess maybe what I'm asking is an EV drivetrain more efficient than an ICE?

Forgive me , I'm still trying to understand where the electricity goes when it hits the end of the wire.

Sure, if you have to press the "go pedal" more to keep the same speed going up a hill, then an EV will suck more juice just like an ICE will.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Is the m/kWh drop going uphill in an EV similar to or more or less than the drop in mpg you see with ICE? Without getting all worried about fine details, say if your F150 is running at 18 mpg (instantaneous) at the base of the climb and 9 mpg while on the climb would a Lightning showing 50 m/kWh show 25 on the climb? I guess maybe what I'm asking is an EV drivetrain more efficient than an ICE?

Forgive me , I'm still trying to understand where the electricity goes when it hits the end of the wire.

Some similarites for sure; fuel consumption is based on load. There is a difference on low load, such as extended downhill. Of cource an ICE vehicle uses less fuel. Similarly, but different, an EV can actually regain fuel via "regenerative braking". From a high level, regenerative braking uses some of the kinetic energy of the vehicle to recharge the battery or even used immeadiately, where braking in an ICE vehicle converts the kinetic energy to heat which returns to the atmosphere.

This may be oversimplistic, but the electric motor drives the wheels during acceleration or cruising consuming energy, while the wheels drive the motor while decelerating to produce electricity. Regen is found in hybrids as well as pure EVs. For example, Toyota makes excellent hybrids; they have been doing this for a long time.

Our Lexus GS350 F Sport gets it's best mileage on a nice ride up Interstate 280 keeping the speed constant around 60 mph. Still lousy. Mileage suffers around town in traffic because of stop and go driving. Idling and getting that heavy car moving is not very efficient.

Conversely our Model 3 does poorly at freeway speeds because the motor has to push the heavy car without the benefit of regen. It loves around town; when stopped in traffic energy consumption is nil. And remember the flat torque curve allows the heavy car to be quick, unlike the Lexus that uses a gearbox to make up for the rpm based torque curve.

This is my best understanding.
I bet @OVERKILL and others can give a detailed explanation of "regenerative braking", especially in comparison to ICE vehicles.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ This video gives a good idea on how regenerative charging works on an EV.

 

[AZjeff]

Sure, if you have to press the "go pedal" more to keep the same speed going up a hill, then an EV will suck more juice just like an ICE will.

Of course. Is one more efficient than the other is the question.

Similarly, but different, an EV can actually regain fuel via "regenerative braking". From a high level, regenerative braking uses some of the kinetic energy of the vehicle to recharge the battery or even used immeadiately, where braking in an ICE vehicle converts the kinetic energy to heat which returns to the atmosphere.

Forget regen braking. See above, does an EV use it's available power more efficiently than an ICE? Don't know how to phrase it. Are EVs more efficient with their available energy because of less mechanical losses, less heat loss from combustion etc?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Of course. Is one more efficient than the other is the question.

Forget regen braking. See above, does an EV use it's available power more efficiently than an ICE? Don't know how to phrase it. Are EVs more efficient with their available energy because of less mechanical losses, less heat loss from combustion etc?

Yes, EVs are more efficient in turning electrical power into motion than ICE is turning gasoline into motion. Most of the energy in gasoline is turned into heat, not motion.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, EVs are more efficient in turning electrical power into motion than ICE is turning gasoline into motion. Most of the energy in gasoline is turned into heat, not motion.

Yes, this, EV's have a more efficient powertrain than gas engines, which are ~30-40% efficient. EV's are around 90% efficient.

Is the m/kWh drop going uphill in an EV similar to or more or less than the drop in mpg you see with ICE? Without getting all worried about fine details, say if your F150 is running at 18 mpg (instantaneous) at the base of the climb and 9 mpg while on the climb would a Lightning showing 50 m/kWh show 25 on the climb? I guess maybe what I'm asking is an EV drivetrain more efficient than an ICE?

Forgive me , I'm still trying to understand where the electricity goes when it hits the end of the wire.

The difference of course is that gasoline is massively more energy dense than a battery.
- 1 gallon of gasoline has 120,286 BTU
- 1 kWh is 3,412 BTU
- 1 gallon of gasoline weighs 6.073lbs
- The Tesla Model 3 Long Range battery weighs 1,060lbs and has a capacity of 75kWh; 14.13lbs per kWh, 255,900 BTU

So:
- 20lbs of gasoline is 3.29 gallons and contains 396,134 BTU
- 20lbs of Tesla battery contains 1.415kWh; 4,829 BTU

That's a massive difference in energy density.

However, an EV that gets let's say 400 miles on a 75kWh battery is getting 5.33 miles per kWh. We've already noted that 1kWh is 3,412 BTU and 1 gallon of gasoline is 120,286 BTU, so there are 35.25kWh available per gallon of gasoline. If that gasoline powertrain was as efficient as the EV one, it would get 188 miles out of that gallon of gas.

As @JeffKeryk noted, EV's are best suited to in-town use where aero doesn't have an impact on power consumption. Unlike a gasoline engine where start/stop and changing gears and going all over the RPM range puts it in its least efficient mode of operation, this is where the BEV excels. You put it out on the open road and throw in some long hills and the laws that govern friction and overcoming it to obtain a given road speed are not circumvented, so the electric motor draws more power and range decreases. While the powertrain itself is more efficient, the available "fuel" is so low density in comparison to an ICE that this is where the weakness of a battery when compared to a liquid fuel are really highlighted.