LSJR Boutique vs OTS shootout

[4wd]

Same folks also don't want to use the oil grade recommended...which recommendations should folks follow?

Let’s see what happens if CAFE backs off a bit as said …
When Clinebarger posted that my hardware was the same when it was a
5W-30 motor? Simple, but meaningful post right there …

 

[rstsco]

Let’s see what happens if CAFE backs off a bit as said …
When Clinebarger posted that my hardware was the same when it was a
5W-30 motor? Simple, but meaningful post right there …

I have high hopes and low expectations Honda will make any changes with the rollback of CAFE requirements. I'd love to see a software update disabling auto start/stop and VCM activation without my having to mash any buttons every time I start the car.

 

[TacoFergie]

Honestly - it goes the other way - the common lecture here is if you aren’t using boutique - you just don’t understand …

I've seen that too, it's like my wife grocery shopping for 5 items for an hour.

I stick with shorter intervals on our Subaru Ascent (FA24DIT) since it has produced over 5% fuel dilution in 4-5k miles on multiple used oil analysis, better in the summer and worse in the winter as expected. I could be wrong, but I don't think any oil is going to prevent Subaru's ability to dump fuel into the engine. I've even tried 0w30 ESP and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30.

 

[MrStamper]

Where are you getting Mobil 1 Extended Performance, Mobil 1 ESP or Pennzoil Ultra Platinum / Pennzoil Platinum Euro for 3.49/quart? Actually even less because you have 2 additional filter changes.

Walmart. $29 for 5 qts of esp. x3 =$90.
Amsoil: measly 5 qts x $15= $75 plus amsoil shipping lmao. You’re right there.

 

[4wd]

I've seen that too, it's like my wife grocery shopping for 5 items for an hour.

I stick with shorter intervals on our Subaru Ascent (FA24DIT) since it has produced over 5% fuel dilution in 4-5k miles on multiple used oil analysis, better in the summer and worse in the winter as expected. I could be wrong, but I don't think any oil is going to prevent Subaru's ability to dump fuel into the engine. I've even tried 0w30 ESP and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30.

Perhaps a no VII would stand up better ?

 

[kschachn]

I stick with shorter intervals on our Subaru Ascent (FA24DIT) since it has produced over 5% fuel dilution in 4-5k miles on multiple used oil analysis, better in the summer and worse in the winter as expected. I could be wrong, but I don't think any oil is going to prevent Subaru's ability to dump fuel into the engine. I've even tried 0w30 ESP and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30.

Nope. A higher grade and a shorter OCI are all you can do there.

 

[kschachn]

Perhaps a no VII would stand up better ?

Stand up better to permanent viscosity loss due to VII degradation yes. But that takes time, so only for longer OCI. The greater effect is just simple dilution of a higher viscosity fluid with one of a lower viscosity.

Not to say that a no-VII oil isn’t better. It is in many ways, if your climate allows.

 

[ltslimjim]

Further - there may be specific objectives, beyond a simple OCI extension, in choosing a “better” oil - and those objective are unique to my use case and conditions. I am choosing based on analysis, not emotion, and money does matter to me - but in the analysis, cost is more than the simple cost of the jug of oil.

There is the cost of failing to meet requirements. This one is huge. Engine damage is expensive.

There is the cost of not meeting cleanliness, or engine longevity, and that one is huge as well. Keeping a car on the road for a couple years longer through thoughtful maintenance saves a lot of money.

There is the cost of my time. An oil change might only take a couple of hours. But one 3 day trip for me at work can earn me more money than all the oil I have ever bought. Ever. So, add up a couple of oil changes that I don’t have to do - and the cost of oil become negligible. My time has value.

Finally, my latest car had a window sticker of $86,000.

I ain’t looking to save $5 on oil for that one. Volvo has very strict requirements, and most OTS 0W20 fails to meet requirements for that car. Only a fool would try and save $5 changing the oil on that car.

Oh yes, more than just interval length should drive oil choice and the cost of “penny wise, pound foolish” is real. It’s covering your blind spots and providing greater headroom of performance.

It’s the difference in “barely getting by” and potentially having earlier failures or simply chasing problems a better oil might prevent in the first place; such as oil consumption developing (of any type) or and related to this how clean the oil runs. This is the driving factor behind why Valvoline Restore and Protect is such a hit.

 

[ltslimjim]

Walmart. $29 for 5 qts of esp. x3 =$90.
Amsoil: measly 5 qts x $15= $75 plus amsoil shipping lmao. You’re right there.

If you sign up for PC pricing ($10 first time customer) and buy a case of 4 - 1 Gallon jugs, it comes to $188 in the US after tax and free shipping. That’s $11.75 per Quart and I get 3 years worth of oil changes. $63 a year on oil is cheaper than 3x a year on ESP or the same cost if changing ESP 2x a year. So, where are your savings now? You change the oil less often for the same cost after tax. Amsoil is the same cost OOP in the scenario you described played out with ACTUAL numbers and it’s 3 times under the car instead of 6 or 9 in the same time frame.

 

[TacoFergie]

Perhaps a no VII would stand up better ?

Nope. A higher grade and a shorter OCI are all you can do there.

Stand up better to permanent viscosity loss due to VII degradation yes. But that takes time, so only for longer OCI. The greater effect is just simple dilution of a higher viscosity fluid with one of a lower viscosity.

Not to say that a no-VII oil isn’t better. It is in many ways, if your climate allows.

These are all things I've thought about too. I did have a used oil analysis thread, but I haven't updated it in a long while. But at the same time, I'm not sure I want to go back to sending off samples if that makes sense. Currently at 73k and just did my started using Valvoline Restore and Protect 5w20.

Maybe I'll start a thread about that so we don't stray too far off track on this one.

 

[MrStamper]

If you sign up for PC pricing ($10 first time customer) and buy a case of 4 - 1 Gallon jugs, it comes to $188 in the US after tax and free shipping. That’s $11.75 per Quart and I get 3 years worth of oil changes. $63 a year on oil is cheaper than 3x a year on ESP or the same cost if changing ESP 2x a year. So, where are your savings now? You change the oil less often for the same cost after tax. Amsoil is the same cost OOP in the scenario you described played out with ACTUAL numbers and it’s 3 times under the car instead of 6 or 9 in the same time frame.

I’d rather have fresh oil running through my engine every couple of months. I’m not Mercedes Benz to enjoy long service drain intervals.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Honestly - it goes the other way - the common lecture here is if you aren’t using boutique - you just don’t understand …

I agree and to me it’s just another trend in the saga that is BITOG. I vividly recall years ago here, around 2010 or so, when Pennzoil conventional was a go-to recommendation for an oil that “cleans”. Obviously that’s ridiculous to think about now, but then after that we had a ton of members that were on the “oil is oil because they all meet the API spec” bandwagon. Now this crowd has shifted away from that for the most part, and like you said, boutique is in fashion and HPL became all the rage these past couple years. There’s always a fashionable choice here, and fashion changes.

 

[buster]

There's also been this mentality that you can't have both an approved oil and one that is of much higher quality. We know for a fact that is not true because XOM tells you that Mobil 1 exceeds the tests by xyz%. There is also this mentality that you need to top treat everything. That's also not true. Maybe true in 1995 but not now.

 

[trd1zz]

Same folks also don't want to use the oil grade recommended...which recommendations should folks follow?

Most folks are going ~1/2 of the recommended oci. So with higher end oils they should be able to go to the manufacturer's recommended drain without worry and call that a win on the value equation for using higher end oils.

"should be able to...". Follow whichever recommendations you want. If that means ignoring or disregarding the manufacturer's recommendations, so be it, it's your car and your money.

 

[trd1zz]

Yeah that would be inappropriate for them to do so considering they have no idea what the better quality oil would be. However that doesn’t negate the actual ability to do so. As you note, same as grade, intervals are recommendations.

This whole thread is about the notion that not all oils are identical, is it not?

Doesn't seem too far fetched that they could include a special service conditions section for extending the interval, just like they already do for shortening it?

 

[trd1zz]

To which manufacturer are you referring?

Several of my vehicles very stringent oil quality requirements - and most OTS oils don’t meet the requirements.

So, yeah, I use oil that meets requirements.

All manufacturers specify the requirements / specifications of oil to put in the motor, don't they? I don't think anyone, myself included, is advocating for using an oil that doesn't meet manufacturer baseline spec.

Last I checked there wasn't a section that said if you use a "better" oil that meets "even stricter requirements" than the manufacturer's baseline spec, that you could extend beyond the manufacturer specified interval.

 

[kschachn]

Doesn't seem too far fetched that they could include a special service conditions section for extending the interval, just like they already do for shortening it?

Still they don’t know the oil. And besides, someone reading such a recommendation would think the higher priced oil at Autozone (which sells for half that at Walmart) is “better” based on price. No way a manufacturer would do that.

You keep trying though, I’ll give you that.

 

[ltslimjim]

I’d rather have fresh oil running through my engine every couple of months. I’m not Mercedes Benz to enjoy long service drain intervals.

Sure, that makes sense if not using boutique or very high end OTS; think entry level synthetic. More often is required. These are generalities though and specific vehicles & conditions dictate optimal choices

 

[ltslimjim]

I agree and to me it’s just another trend in the saga that is BITOG. I vividly recall years ago here, around 2010 or so, when Pennzoil conventional was a go-to recommendation for an oil that “cleans”. Obviously that’s ridiculous to think about now, but then after that we had a ton of members that were on the “oil is oil because they all meet the API spec” bandwagon. Now this crowd has shifted away from that for the most part, and like you said, boutique is in fashion and HPL became all the rage these past couple years. There’s always a fashionable choice here, and fashion changes.

However, the facts behind each of those scenarios and trends could be based on simply better Intel. There was way more guessing done 15-20 years ago. I believe the floor of knowledge has greatly been lifted because of the dialogue over the years here. We’ve also seen changes in vehicles that require more out of the oil. Hence, many have moved to boutiques or higher end oils or problem solver oils like Valvoline restore and protect; for real world reasons and results. Of course, we can be wrong about a general opinion at any given point and look back, but I believe since we have done so already, we’re less prone to making the same mistakes. Don’t just go with popular, go with vehicle and application specific

 

[GW.]

Having worked for an OEM for 12 years I place very little faith in what’s printed or not printed in the owners manual.