Low Viscosity doesn't have to mean low quality

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Originally Posted by dave1251
Either lube is thick enough to keep parts separated or not. If a 16 grade is thick enough under the maximum stress and heat to stay thick enough going to a thicker grade accomplishes not a thing. Now some enlightened posters feel this is not the case. If there is verified data showing the need to go higher go ahead. If you feel the want go ahead. The false pretense thier is a need to go thicker because you feel thicker is better is not factual.

^^^ This.

Tig1 just posted photos looking inside his valve cover on his Ford Fusion with over 200K miles and he runs 10K mile OCI's on M1 and the cam in the area we can see looks great. No rod-knock and no consumption issues. All on 20wt.
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[Linked Image]
 
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Originally Posted by dave1251
Either lube is thick enough to keep parts separated or not. If a 16 grade is thick enough under the maximum stress and heat to stay thick enough going to a thicker grade accomplishes not a thing. Now some enlightened posters feel this is not the case. If there is verified data showing the need to go higher go ahead. If you feel the want go ahead. The false pretense thier is a need to go thicker because you feel thicker is better is not factual.



It is not to "feel better" it is actually a recommendation from the manufacturer that going up in viscosity adds protection.

For example.
Page 628 of my 2018 Toyota Tacoma owners manual states.

"An oil with a higher viscosity May be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
 
Originally Posted by Shannow

Usually followed by an "I'm done", or a refusal to actually read the content objected to.



Guess I nailed THAT too, eh ?

smirk.gif
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by Shannow

Usually followed by an "I'm done", or a refusal to actually read the content objected to.



Guess I nailed THAT too, eh ?

smirk.gif


Why because I know when I'm going to go around in circles? No thanks.
 
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted by dave1251
Either lube is thick enough to keep parts separated or not. If a 16 grade is thick enough under the maximum stress and heat to stay thick enough going to a thicker grade accomplishes not a thing. Now some enlightened posters feel this is not the case. If there is verified data showing the need to go higher go ahead. If you feel the want go ahead. The false pretense thier is a need to go thicker because you feel thicker is better is not factual.



It is not to "feel better" it is actually a recommendation from the manufacturer that going up in viscosity adds protection.

For example.
Page 628 of my 2018 Toyota Tacoma owners manual states.

"An oil with a higher viscosity May be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."


Key words "May be better suited" Not "Required" and also who is operating them at high speeds other than in Europe on the Autobahn?
The only exception to this is "Load conditions" being towing heavy loads for extended periods of time.
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Key words "May be better suited" Not "Required" and also who is operating them at high speeds other than in Europe on the Autobahn?
The only exception to this is "Load conditions" being towing heavy loads for extended periods of time.


We've been over this before. This wording is in US sold Toyotas where no Autobahn is present. And since you're posting Autobahn straw men, perhaps I should remind you that Toyota doesn't specify Xw20 in Europe but 5w30. Their Hybrids call for 0w20 only.

And as I've said numerous times, low RPM and highway speeds and if you add towing to the mix, do in fact require bigger MOFT.
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
Either lube is thick enough to keep parts separated or not. If a 16 grade is thick enough under the maximum stress and heat to stay thick enough going to a thicker grade accomplishes not a thing. Now some enlightened posters feel this is not the case. If there is verified data showing the need to go higher go ahead. If you feel the want go ahead. The false pretense thier is a need to go thicker because you feel thicker is better is not factual.


If it it only were that simple. It is not. Manufacturers have technical papers and studies, you know that stuff that most here can't be bothered to read, that say the wear needs to be controlled with these thin lubricants, WEAR, That means the film is not thick enough to keep the parts separated in certain situations.
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted by dave1251
Either lube is thick enough to keep parts separated or not. If a 16 grade is thick enough under the maximum stress and heat to stay thick enough going to a thicker grade accomplishes not a thing. Now some enlightened posters feel this is not the case. If there is verified data showing the need to go higher go ahead. If you feel the want go ahead. The false pretense thier is a need to go thicker because you feel thicker is better is not factual.



It is not to "feel better" it is actually a recommendation from the manufacturer that going up in viscosity adds protection.

For example.
Page 628 of my 2018 Toyota Tacoma owners manual states.

"An oil with a higher viscosity May be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."


Key words "May be better suited" Not "Required" and also who is operating them at high speeds other than in Europe on the Autobahn?
The only exception to this is "Load conditions" being towing heavy loads for extended periods of time.



You seem to extropleiate more than what the manual says.
It doesn't say autobahn (of course since this is the USA and not Germany)nor does say towing all the time. This is a USA owners manual, so it should be taken in USA context. What it says is extreme loads and or high speeds. I could and do interpret it as a car topper(which imposes a load higher in wind resistance than factory, or a lot of highway driving for the USA.
Just like It doesn't say up one grade, it says a higher viscosity. Leaving it up to the owner to interpret what is best for their use like many of us have done while understanding why 0w20 is "recomended" in the USA.

I am sure driving from my new home in New Braunfels to Mentone Texas and back every couple of weeks will qualify as plenty of high speed driving. 75-90 mph interstate most the way. Out goes the 0w20 free "flush oil" from Toyota care, I have been puttering around in for 3 months while I moved and shopped for new housewares. In goes something like M1 high mileage 10w30 or 0w40 now that the truck is going back to work.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
We've been over this before. This wording is in US sold Toyotas where no Autobahn is present. And since you're posting Autobahn straw men, perhaps I should remind you that Toyota doesn't specify Xw20 in Europe but 5w30. Their Hybrids call for 0w20 only.

[Linked Image]


German 2018 Toyota Corolla owner's manual:

  • 1NR-FE and 1ZR-FAE gasoline engines (nonhybrid)

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Translation:

Recommended viscosity (SAE): SAE 0W-20 will be in production filled in your Toyota and is the best choice for good fuel economy and good start in cold weather. Is SAE 0W-20 oil not available can substitute SAE 5W-30 oil be used. It should however, at the next oil change again replaced by SAE 0W-20 become. An engine oil of the SAE class 10W- 30 or higher viscosity can at extremely low temperatures to trouble starting lead the engine. That is why the Use of an engine oil the SAE class 0W-20 or 5W-30 recommended.

Oil Viscosity (0W-20 is used here as an example):

• The 0W in 0W-20 indicates the property of the oil, the starting behavior determined in cold weather. Lower value oils in front of the W are suitable better for starting the engine in cold weather.
• The value 20 in 0W-20 shows the viscosity property of the oil at high Temperature on. An oil of higher viscosity (i.e., higher value) may be more appropriate if the vehicle is at high speeds or operated under extreme load conditions.

Reading the oil container labels:

Often, one or both API-registered license plates are on the oil reservoir attached to help you choose the right oil. API service badge Upper part: "API SERVICE SN" shows the American Petroleum Institute (API) awarded oil quality designation. Middle part: "SAE 0W-20" shows the SAE viscosity grade. Lower part: "Resource Conserving" means that the oil is fuel-efficient and environmental protective Has properties. ILSAC certification mark The mark of approval of the International Lubricant Specification Advisory Committee (ILSAC) is applied to the front of the container.
 
Based on what I've learned on bitog, 0WxY can not be formulated with an inferior base oil. That's why you don't see any conventional 0Wx. If inferior means "low(er) quality", then any 0Wx must be superior or high(er) quality than its conventional or syn-blend counter parts.
The part I don't care much for is if the Y is 20 or lower (i.e. 0Wx20 or 0Wx16) ... even though I know it's a very superior (high quality?) Oil since it can't be formulated with inferior (low quality) base, I rather to at least have a 30. Unless if I can find a high hths 0Wx20 and not sure if that is even possible ... It maybe like asking for an apple that looks like and taste like orange. Then get an orange
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Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by StevieC
Key words "May be better suited" Not "Required" and also who is operating them at high speeds other than in Europe on the Autobahn?
The only exception to this is "Load conditions" being towing heavy loads for extended periods of time.


We've been over this before. This wording is in US sold Toyotas where no Autobahn is present. And since you're posting Autobahn straw men, perhaps I should remind you that Toyota doesn't specify Xw20 in Europe but 5w30. Their Hybrids call for 0w20 only.

And as I've said numerous times, low RPM and highway speeds and if you add towing to the mix, do in fact require bigger MOFT.

They will use the same basic manual all over and change only what's required. We have been over this before.
 
Who knew additive boundary layers were considered film strength?

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Based on what I've learned on bitog, 0WxY can not be formulated with an inferior base oil.


That exactly it.
When did low viscosity equate to low quality? In the true sense of the word, it's apparent that the OPPOSITE is true: low vis oils have to (by necessity) use base slates that are of consistently high quality in order to meet performance targets. Who's been under the impression otherwise?

Originally Posted by Gokhan
the best choice for good fuel economy and good start in cold weather.

There it is. Relativistic terminology like "good" notwithstanding, the only potential benefits of this grade are good fuel economy and good start in cold weather, and literally nothing else. Both factors which can be challenged by a 0W30, or 5W30 with arguably negligible or even inversely affected FE.Toyota et al have legal obligations and reliability interests at the same time, and they're in conflict with each other. It's what drives them to have to craft litigiously-worded verbiage for the Owner's Manual. Europe has been dragging their heels compared to EPA in FE targets but they're not far behind. Anyone think BMW engineers really want to run their B48 2.0L TGDI on a 0W20 just to be fashionable?

full-688-24424-honda_revs_manifold_pressure_markets.jpg
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by StevieC
Key words "May be better suited" Not "Required" and also who is operating them at high speeds other than in Europe on the Autobahn?
The only exception to this is "Load conditions" being towing heavy loads for extended periods of time.


We've been over this before. This wording is in US sold Toyotas where no Autobahn is present. And since you're posting Autobahn straw men, perhaps I should remind you that Toyota doesn't specify Xw20 in Europe but 5w30. Their Hybrids call for 0w20 only.

And as I've said numerous times, low RPM and highway speeds and if you add towing to the mix, do in fact require bigger MOFT.

They will use the same basic manual all over and change only what's required. We have been over this before.


Sure they are, North America is Toyota's biggest market, but heck, they're gonna take a German owner's manual and change it a bit for U.S.
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How about addressing the MOFT, low RPM, highway speeds and towing? No, of course not.


Although it appears that the 2018 Corolla in fact does specify 0w20, but historically that was no the case, and they do list a chart with other oil viscosity. In US and Canada, we get 0w20 or 5w20 or 5w30.
 
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Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
It's what drives them to have to craft litigiously-worded verbiage for the Owner's Manual. Europe has been dragging their heels compared to EPA in FE targets but they're not far behind. Anyone think BMW engineers really want to run their B48 2.0L TGDI on a 0W20 just to be fashionable?

You totally missed the whole point. Wordings in the USA and Germany owner's manuals are identical. Toyota doesn't distinguish between US and Germany or interstate and autobahn.

0W-20 works in engines where it's recommended, regardless of the country it's used in and regardless of how fast the vehicle is driven. In fact, it works better -- you get better fuel economy, more horsepower, smoother takeoffs, and smoother-running engine overall. No Toyota engine has ever failed on a German autobahn because it used 0W-20. Did you somehow miss the line in the German owner's manual that it's the factory fill in German Toyotas? Factory fill in German Toyotas intended for German autobahns!

The reason why thicker grades are also mentioned in the German oil chart is because of oil availability there, and yes, there is also some truth in satisfying the CAFE requirements in US here. Nevertheless, this doesn't change the fact that Toyota engines run best at the lowest viscosity they recommend. 0W-20 is not only recommended but preferred and optimal viscosity for these engines.

If you want to run 20W-50 or even 25W-60, go ahead and do so. It won't harm your engine either even though your engine will needlessly run sluggish. However, don't falsely claim that 0W-20 is outta get your engines and prematurely fail them, or alternatively, falsely claim that it won't work on German autobahns because the cars are driven too fast there.

[Linked Image]


USA 2018 Toyota Corolla owner's manual:

  • 2ZR-FE and 2ZR-FAE engines (nonhybrid)

[Linked Image]
 
At least that settles the theory that high speed driving means autobahn, since even German owner's manual does not mention autobahn. But the fact still remains, that some Toyota models, particularly their SUVs and Trucks, do mention higher viscosity oil should be used or may be used when towing or high speed (read highway) driving. Toyota would not put such wording without reason.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
StevieC said:
... low RPM and highway speeds and if you add towing to the mix, do in fact require bigger MOFT.
It's amazing that engines are unerringly able to distinguish towing from speeding up a long mountain grade at the same RPM and same BMEP.
 
"An oil with a higher viscosity May be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
.ike 80 up a grade or into the wind loaded or all of these....that's what kills the engine running W20
 
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Originally Posted by CR94
It's amazing that engines are unerringly able to distinguish towing from speeding up a long mountain grade at the same RPM and same BMEP.


And then, there is towing up long mountain grades at higher BMEP.
 
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
I've often wondered if the increased bearing width to accommodate thinner oils didn't negatively offset the desired results of the thinner oils. Boundary and mixed, with the right additives, will always win the hydrodynamic race but running in those modes is running a fine line between success and failure in my opinion.

Someone here, likely Shannow, though I'm not trying to put him on the spot, mentioned that point before, and might be able to elaborate.
 
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