Loosers on the loose

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It's an fluff piece at best. It says the electric car revolution will happen by customer demand. Lol.

GM is right of course, no lack of vision there. VW shared the same view but ever since the diesel gate, they are the biggest EV cheerleaders in EU.

I have a feeling GMs view point may be "corrected" in similar fashion if they keep on saying electric cars are not viable.
Can't have anybody disturbing the carefully crafted EV image as earth's saviour.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
It's an fluff piece at best. It says the electric car revolution will happen by customer demand. Lol.

GM is right of course, no lack of vision there. VW shared the same view but ever since the diesel gate, they are the biggest EV cheerleaders in EU.

I have a feeling GMs view point may be "corrected" in similar fashion if they keep on saying electric cars are not viable.
Can't have anybody disturbing the carefully crafted EV image as earth's saviour.



I'm not sure if you're aware of this but in the EU the ICE is in the process of being banned from urban areas. This is why VW has become a "cheerleader". It's easy to sell EV's when they're essentially the only option for 40 percent of the market. Domestic automakers in the US don't have to deal with that sort of regulatory burden.
 
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Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
The real answer is hydrogen.


What do you propose to create hydrogen as fuel?

It takes a ton of electricity to get hydrogen from hydrolysis... and right now, most hydrogen comes from steam reformation of natural gas.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


I'm not sure if you're aware of this but in the EU the ICE is in the process of being banned from urban areas. This is why VW has become a "cheerleader". It's easy to sell EV's when they're essentially the only option for 40 percent of the market. Domestic automakers in the US don't have to deal with that sort of regulatory burden.


I'm talking 2011-2012, no bans were taking place.

EU started to ban ICE vehicles because despite all the propaganda, people simply were not buying into it. So the next best thing, as any socialistic regime knows, is to force the populous into the correct path.

Expect the same here. Then they will turn around and say it was customer demand.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but in the EU the ICE is in the process of being banned from urban areas. This is why VW has become a "cheerleader". It's easy to sell EV's when they're essentially the only option for 40 percent of the market. Domestic automakers in the US don't have to deal with that sort of regulatory burden.


...until California starts banning the internal combustion engine.


Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
The real answer is hydrogen.


What do you propose to create hydrogen as fuel?

It takes a ton of electricity to get hydrogen from hydrolysis... and right now, most hydrogen comes from steam reformation of natural gas.


Funny this came up, I read an article awhile back that was making the point that Iceland is the Saudi Arabia of hydrogen production. They've got thermoelectric power due to the geology of the island, and of course unlimited sea water. Apparently there are already hydrogen vehicles in Iceland as well as numerous (?) filling stations.

Nowhere near the scale required for Europe or the US, but.
 
Three things need to be fixed.

1) Price
2) Range
3) Charge time


Real world highway range at various speeds. I must admit that while 80mph is the top category, traffic often moves faster than that on major interstates.

NOTE: EV quoted range IS NOT highway range.
NOTE 2: look at what 30 minutes at the supercharger gets you.


https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1038920763955396608


My typical West Palm Beach to Jacksonville, FL round trip is 600 miles, plus local driving. None of the Tesla cars can make it one way. Nor is there a charger near the hotels I use.

I just don't have the time to deal with that.
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
Three things need to be fixed.

1) Price
2) Range
3) Charge time


I wonder about price because I would imagine that the dealer network would demand price supports in order to offset their loss of warranty work for engine/transmission components.
21.gif
 
The issues with electric cars are that they make no economic sense in their current state of development and for many people they are less useful than gasoline power, thus the market is not demanding them. It has been said that the most expensive Tesla offers less overall functionality than the cheapest Mitsubishi Mirage, and that without the ability to extort funds from other companies via the carbon credit scheme Tesla would have folded a long time ago. I see these as truisms.

The push towards electric cars is 100% artificial and is being forced by governments. There is really no good reason for it, at least in the U.S., since modern gasoline powered cars are extremely clean and have been since the advent of fuel injection and 3-way catalytic converters in the 1990s. I'm not going to get into a lengthy political harangue regarding many of the reasons this is happening. However a big part of the problem is that politicians and bureaucrats have no concept of diminishing returns and are always looking for ways to expand their budgets and their power. (You will never see a government agency declare their job is done, downsize, and go into maintenance mode.)

If electric vehicles that are truly competitive to their gas-powered counterparts come to market many buyers would begin flocking to them and a natural transition would occur. (This is what happened when the automotive industry abandoned electric power in favor of gasoline a century ago.) That will likely happen in time but we are not there yet. There is no reason to forcibly impose a change to electrics.
 
Global warming and pollution levels in Indian capital, Chinese big cities, Mexico City a few decades back, pollution levels climbing in big cities in US - there would be an eventual ban ICE or de- incentivized against alternatives (they have already banned small diesels and 3 stroke engines).

Time for the ICE to be replaced with alternatives - clearly the big3 have lost their way. We better get ready for another bailout.
 
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Global warming and pollution levels in Indian capital, Chinese big cities, Mexico City a few decades back, pollution levels climbing in big cities in US - there would be an eventual ban ICE or de- incentivized against alternatives (they have already banned small diesels and 3 stroke engines).

Time for the ICE to be replaced with alternatives - clearly the big3 have lost their way. We better get ready for another bailout.


You dont think EVs get handouts?! Lol
 
Combined cycle natural gas powerplant to EV wheel efficiency = 29%

The only benefit is that burning natural gas produces somewhat lower CO2.

But by BTU's consumed per mile, a diesel or hybrid consume less.
 
Originally Posted by Rolla07
You dont think EVs get handouts?! Lol


Yes they do both Federal and State breaks. But the point I am making is in many forms ICE over the years have gotten handouts and it isn't working right.
Big3 have junked cars (Chrysler makes muscle cars no one wants) and jumped into bigger truck/SUVs gathering more attention towards emission levels
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
The real answer is hydrogen.


What do you propose to create hydrogen as fuel?

It takes a ton of electricity to get hydrogen from hydrolysis... and right now, most hydrogen comes from steam reformation of natural gas.



I make gas and cryo liquid H2 for a living.

Even with steam reformation, you're still producing lots of CO and CO2 as byproducts, as well as guzzling many gallons/minute of water, which is treated with chemicals like any boiler. The magical treatment media and catalysts in SMRs are extremely hazardous at many levels as well. All this while eating up natural gas. The good thing is they don't use a lot of electricity to run. Just a few blowers, some pumps and a compressor or two.

Our other H2 plants take in a dirty form of H2 gas from neighboring chlorine and bleach producing companies. The process of cleaning that up and getting it to liquid temps eats up 10's of megawatts of electricity, but it's all hydro-electric. We haven't been able to keep up with demand ever.

Getting back to the EV thing. I just don't get how trading off some gasoline or diesel for more electrical demand does anything different environmentally.
 
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If my crystal ball isn't malfunctioning, I see a future with small, overpriced & ugly electric & hybrid hatchbacks, and huge, grossly overpriced ICE trucks and SUVs. Now we're seeing electric pickups emerge, which I think is hilarious.

This trend of balancing the 14mpg Suburban against the 100+mpg electric / hybrid for CAFE purposes has killed all the stuff in the middle, starting with mid-sized ICE sedans & coupes (RIP Fusion & Focus, wave bye-bye to the Camaro). It wasn't lack of demand that killed the sedan in the U.S.....it's CAFE. We've all seen in automotive news the monstrosity that will surely replace Ford's mid-sized coupe.

This is a lot of change for middle-class Americans currently driving $25,000 2 and 4-door cars. I'm in no way prepared to shell out $35K for any car, ICE or electric. Tesla, and to a smaller degree, GM, didn't seem to take a price point into consideration when tossing their hats into this ring. $34K+ for a Volt.....seriously? I'm happy for the multitudes of people who can justify that in their own minds, or even more so, the $100K price tag on a Model S. For the rest of us, I hope this doesn't mean an affordable electric car will look much like a Smart Car. If so, I may be nursing my 2018 Mustang through its golden years, until gasoline becomes a commodity of the super-rich.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by KrisZ
It's an fluff piece at best. It says the electric car revolution will happen by customer demand. Lol.

GM is right of course, no lack of vision there. VW shared the same view but ever since the diesel gate, they are the biggest EV cheerleaders in EU.

I have a feeling GMs view point may be "corrected" in similar fashion if they keep on saying electric cars are not viable.
Can't have anybody disturbing the carefully crafted EV image as earth's saviour.



I'm not sure if you're aware of this but in the EU the ICE is in the process of being banned from urban areas. This is why VW has become a "cheerleader". It's easy to sell EV's when they're essentially the only option for 40 percent of the market. Domestic automakers in the US don't have to deal with that sort of regulatory burden.



Great post BMW ^^^^^^^


I think EVs have a place in urban areas... Especially given how many people stay within a 40 mile radius a very high percentage of the time.

For people out in the country... And those that travel long distances... Give a regular gasoline powered vehicle.
 
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