Liqui-Moly Synthoil Racetech GT1 10W-60

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I just thought I'd throw this out there for the M3/M5 guys. Liqui-Moly Synthoil Racetech GT1 10W-60  -
quote:
Energy-conserving for extreme conditions. With the wide-range viscosity 10 W-60 HD. High thermal stability. Lubrication is also reliably maintained at extreme temperatures. Optimises engine performance. Immediate lubrication during cold starting and significantly improved wear protection. Fine-tuned to the demands of the latest generation power units (multi-valve and turbocharged). Operational area: Year-round performance engine oil for sports applications. For petrol and Diesel engines. Car manufacturer´s approval: API SL / CF
www.liqui-moly.de/web/lmhomeen.nsf/pages/products?OpenDocument&Param=3:lubricantsengineoils4strokecarfullysynthetic www.interautopartssd.com/liquimoly.php Liqui-Moly 10W60 for $35/5L And there's Greddy and STi 10W60 www.evasivemotorsports.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EM&Product_Code=GR110W60 http://news.hspn.com/articles/126/1/STi-Announces-Release-of-10W-60-&-5W-40-STi-Motorsport-Oil
 
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I overheard a Porsche guy at Inter Auto speaking highly of this for track usage. The only thing is that's not approved by BMW. So at least under the warranty period I would stick with their Castrol 10w60.
 

gtx510

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A 10W60 sounds like a track/race oil to me. If I had a new turbo and engine I'd let you know for sure. [Wink] How does BMW approve the M engine oil? It seems like they're more specifying a viscosity? There's no LL-xx rating like the regular engines? And just something I've noticed, all these 10W60 oils look like the sulfated ash level is around 1.5%. Pretty high, like a HDEO. http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do?categoryId=9004871&contentId=7009118 http://129.35.64.91/bpglis/lubtds.nsf/technicaldata/CC880C7990D9C1CE80257088003E28DD?OpenDocument UK Castrol Edge Sport http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:kh4ho2ohW0AJ:www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do%3FcategoryId%3D82914037%26contentId%3D7000252+castrol+tws+10w60&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 It's tough to find Castrol TWS info http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_switzerland/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/r/rs10w60_switzerland.pdf Castrol RS info (how's your German?) http://129.35.64.91/bpglis/lubtds.nsf/technicaldata/A301E5019FE6CB25C1256F62003BCFE4?OpenDocument more RS info, I don't see BMW anywhere, but this is the stuff the M-guys say is also approved
 
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quote:
Originally posted by gtx510: A 10W60 sounds like a track/race oil to me. If I had a new turbo and engine I'd let you know for sure. [Wink] How does BMW approve the M engine oil? It seems like they're more specifying a viscosity? There's no LL-xx rating like the regular engines? And just something I've noticed, all these 10W60 oils look like the sulfated ash level is around 1.5%. Pretty high, like a HDEO. http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do?categoryId=9004871&contentId=7009118 http://129.35.64.91/bpglis/lubtds.nsf/technicaldata/CC880C7990D9C1CE80257088003E28DD?OpenDocument UK Castrol Edge Sport http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:kh4ho2ohW0AJ:www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do%3FcategoryId%3D82914037%26contentId%3D7000252+castrol+tws+10w60&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 It's tough to find Castrol TWS info http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_switzerland/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/r/rs10w60_switzerland.pdf Castrol RS info (how's your German?) http://129.35.64.91/bpglis/lubtds.nsf/technicaldata/A301E5019FE6CB25C1256F62003BCFE4?OpenDocument more RS info, I don't see BMW anywhere, but this is the stuff the M-guys say is also approved
BMW actually states that either Castrol TWS or Castrol RS 10w60 is approved.
 

jaj

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gtx510, windnsea00 I've researched the heck out of this topic for my own purposes (what oil to put in my 03 BMW M5?) The situation goes like this: Castrol TWS Motorsport 10w-60 is approved by BMW for some "M" engines - S62 (E39M5) and S54 (E46 M3). BMW also approves Veedol Synthetic Z in 10w-60 viscosity if you need a "second source". TWS is the same as pre-2000 Castrol RS Racing Syntec 10w-60. Starting in 2001, Castrol reformulated this oil and the reformulated product is not approved. Castrol announced in 2005 that they had a new product - Castrol "EDGE" 10w-60 that was the same formulation as TWS (ie-pre 2000 RS). Castrol EDGE SPORT is not the same and Castrol does not say that it's BMW approved. TWS is also approved by BMW Motorsports (the real racing division, not the same as the street vehicle divisions BMW and BMW "M") for their racing engines. It goes in the sealed Formula BMW series engines and in the V8 powered M3 GTR. TWS is a real racing oil. TWS meets the now obsolete BMW Special Oil List specifications but not LL-98 or LL-01. That said, BMW says it can be run up to 15,000 KM between changes, only slightly less than LL-98, and certainly long enough for the standard service interval on the S54 and S62. Of course, those of us who frequent BITOG change it more often! Cheers JJ
 
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Good info and nice car jaj. I know for the S62's in North America they said BMW 5w30 was safe for 3/00 builds and later. Oddly enough they still required 10w60 worldwide. That's quite a difference, I would feel safer just running the 10w60 even in the later builds especially since I know I would be using it like it was designed for [Smile]
 

jaj

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As far as I can tell from my research, which includes getting in front of a BMW TIS data screen for a few minutes, BMW approved their LL-01 oils (including the BMWNA 5w-30) world-wide for the S62 starting in March 2000. I always thought that they'd stayed with TWS in the rest of the world but it turns out that they didn't. In North America, we get to feeling like we're getting shafted because we "don't get the same oil as Europe". Then, a month or two ago there was a huge furor on a UK BMW forum when the M5 owners were screaming for blood over the fact that their engines had been getting TWS and they should have had the lower viscosity product. Go figure... Cheers JJ
 

gtx510

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yeah, that thicker oil can really hurt your engine by protecting things too much. [Wink] What I find as odd is that the LL-xx oils are really low in sulfated ash %'s (<1%) and TWS is up around 1.5% like a HDEO. Thoughts? Comments? I wonder how BMW goes about approving those 10W60 oils. What are their specs? LL-01 seems like it needs to stay a 30wt for 15k so it's usually a thick 30wt or thin 40wt with a high HTHS and plenty-o-additives. Can you be that general? Or am I underthinking? And what changed in Formula RS that took it off the approved oil list? Personally I'd be doing a VOA of TWS and the L-M 10W60 since the latter is about $4-5/qt cheaper. A VOA would pay for itself in about 1 oil change? 2 if you get a UOA.?
 

jaj

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gtx BMW's view is that if you use the oil they approve then your new-vehicle warranty and future beyond-warranty goodwill repair opportunities are intact. End of story. Worth a LOT of money to BMW owners (an S62 short block is around $20k). I imagine that all the oils they approve involve a lengthy test run and teardown cycle, so if they've approved it, it'll work. As for the 10w-60 oils, it's not clear why they picked that viscosity - it's almost a liability these days, but they know more about their business than we do. The S54 and the new V10 are TWS-only engines. I imagine that the new M3 V8 will be as well. I know that they started off in the S62 with 10w-60 because they used low-tension piston rings. Then they switched rings and changed the cylinder honing process and that "allowed them" to go to the thinner LL-98 and LL01 oils (both are approved). Interestingly enough, they originally introduced the E46 M3 with LL-98 oil, but when they started having bearing problems they switched up to TWS and never changed back. The bearing problems eventually were blamed on a supplier and there were two different recalls to replace the faulty bearings but they never went back to low viscosity oils. In terms of S62 reliability, there are a few (only a handfull out of thousands of cars) S62's that have spun rod bearings. There doesn't seem to be a difference between TWS engines and 5w-30 engines - they both do it. It's always the cyl 4 & 8 rod bearings, though - low pressure at the rear end of the crank farthest from the pump. It's rare, though. BMW engines are generally bulletproof and the "S" engines in the M-cars are no exception. Cheers JJ
 

gtx510

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Yes, my family is on their 8th BMW. I think I understand their warranty process. You need to read about the Federal Magnusson Moss Act. You might be able to weasel free oil changes? from: www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm
quote:
Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge.
Thicker oil = more protection. Like you said it ain't a cheap mill. And better ring seal, I'm betting it's a "loose"/ race engine. And what's the deal with the M3 and M Roadster engines that run 15W40 dino oil? A bearing problem too? And it's still okay to use different oils in those? my sis has an M Roadster....
 

jaj

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Under the current BMW maintenance program for new cars, the oil is provided "free" for the life of the warranty. Magnussen Moss is satisfied without any issues around other oils. Simple really. What's not clear is the thicker oil=better protection equation. Personally, I think the best vis range for the engine is xxw-40 - that was the "factory approved" oil for BMW when the engine was in development. The "issue" arose when the "BMW" switched down to LL-98 with an HTHS of 3.5 or higher, and the "M" division switched up to 10w-60 with an HTHS of 5.7. I think that both divisions would have been better off staying with xxW-40 with an HTHS of 4.5 or so - the very oil used in the E36 M3 and it's M-Coupe and Z3M variants. In the end, the decision to go with LL-98 was driven by longevity issues - run longer, get better fuel economy by using a synthetic xw-30 oil for longer drain intervals. 15w-40 lubricated the engine just fine, it just didn't make it to the end of the longevity test. My opinion, unsupported by any data, is that the "M" division looked at the thinner oil and concluded that it was too thin, and the only alternative they could go for was TWS, which was too thick, but that was better than too thin. Of course, it's all just my idle speculation... Cheers JJ
 
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quote:
Originally posted by gtx510: Yes, my family is on their 8th BMW. I think I understand their warranty process. You need to read about the Federal Magnusson Moss Act. You might be able to weasel free oil changes? from: www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm
quote:
Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge.
Thicker oil = more protection. Like you said it ain't a cheap mill. And better ring seal, I'm betting it's a "loose"/ race engine. And what's the deal with the M3 and M Roadster engines that run 15W40 dino oil? A bearing problem too? And it's still okay to use different oils in those? my sis has an M Roadster....

They had a bearing reacall due to a bad supplier on the S54 motors, which didn't really deal with the oil. In such a high strung motor I would use a synthetic without a doubt. Since Motorsport races with the 60 weights and those engines are pratically race engines, it makes sense.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by gtx510: Weren't there bearing problems with the earlier S50 engine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M50#S50B30 My sister's Mroadster gets the BMW 15W40 every 3k. That's what the dealer says. Why? Is it the bearing thing? And I suppose it'd be fine to switch to a different oil?
The only issue the USS50B30 had was weak valve retainers for the very first few months back in `95. The bearing recall was on S54's, if you search around you will find a plethora of information relating to it. If your sister's Mroadster is the USS52B32 engine (`98-`00) then 15w40 is fine as that isn't a true M engine, only a bored/stroked version of the 2.8 M52 just like the USS50B30 was a bored/stroked version of the 2.5 M50. If she has the S54 (`01-`02) than she has been using the wrong oil but I'm guessing the dealer wouldn't be that far off.
 

gtx510

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yeah, I think it's a '98 with the US engine. She listens to the service manager like he's gawd or something so it get's 3k oil changes even though she barely puts 3k on the car in a year. And her daily commute is seriously about 5 miles roundtrip. She'd owned the car for what seemed like a year or two and I can remember her asking me if she should get the oil changed. As in her first one. "YES! As soon as you can." I think she was waiting for the dealership to call her and tell her that it was time. I'd like to get her to use a decent syn but I don't think I can convince her that I know more than the all-knowing service dept. Not while it's still under warranty. At least her husband listens to me concerning his 740i.
 

jaj

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According to BMW, all variants of the S52 engine are spec'ed to take any one of LL-01, LL-98, BMW Special Oil or ACEA A3/B3 rated oils. 15w-40 at 3k intervals will be just fine. Cheers JJ
 

gtx510

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Did you read my entire post? 15W40 at 3k, but she has a 5 mile ROUNDTRIP commute and barely puts 3k on the car in a year. Her oil is lucky if it reaches full temp on a weekly basis.
 

jaj

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BMW's standard is once a year or the oil life indicator/mileage limit. Hence, she should be fine. Having said that, it's not the best service for any engine. With a 1998 model year engine that's probably spec'd for LL-98, it's not like it used to be. Cheers JJ
 

gtx510

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hmmm. Maybe I can talk her into a 5W40 synthetic? Any suggestions? GC should work, huh? Her husband's got an E38 740i so maybe I can get them both to switch to a LL-98 or LL-01 oil?
 
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