LED Bulb Review

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Originally Posted By: datech


I had another LED of the exact same type burn out a year after turning it off every night and back on every morning. Most lights burn the longest when run constantly because of less thermal movement from change in temperature.


It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

There are 2 major benefits:

1. Cold white light of LED (I specifically got cold white vs warm white for this application) vs old fashion dim yellow of the underpowered appliance bulbs (for long life).
2. Less heat production that will decrease fridge/freezer run time.


OK, number 1 is subjective so I have to give you that one. Number 2? Gimme a break. How long do you stand there with the door open? My bulb's not even on long enough for the glass to get warm.
 
thinking of going to LED Par 36 bulbs for my landscaping lights. one of the reasons is to save electricity costs as these are on 10 hours a night and they are a pain to change out every six months. I think amazon sells one for 30 bucks and I have 8 of them. I'll try one to see if they last. 240 bucks for 8 bulbs is too risky for me.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: datech


I had another LED of the exact same type burn out a year after turning it off every night and back on every morning. Most lights burn the longest when run constantly because of less thermal movement from change in temperature.


It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.



You are right, LEDs are used in some extreme switching conditions, like the fiber optic transmitters that switch at high frequencies. I guess the real problem is the electronics that convert the AC line voltage down.

Anyway, I was just relating my experience. The only LED I have lost so far was on about 12 hours a day, and another identical bulb lasted much longer running 24/7.

Some of the LED bulbs I have bought claim a 46 year life,probably running 3 hours a day or something like that. Nevertheless I am not concerned at all about running them 24 hours a day, as long as they don't overheat. CFLs degrade a little every time you start them up, and again it is often the electronics that fails, although you also see those CFLs with the blackened tubes indicating a failure in the gas tube, start filament, or phosphorous coating inside the tube.

I am going towards a mix of mostly LEDs with a small number of standard incandescents for the very short/occasional use areas like closets in spare rooms, etc. I don't seem myself buying any more CFLs, unless I think one would be more appropriate for some special need.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


I've read this, often, but in my experience with many, many, CFL's in commercial service, there really is no way to predict their lifespan.

I have some that have run continuously over seven years. Some don't last a few months. On / off cycles doesn't seem to matter. Heat in the fixture does not seem to matter. It seems to be completely unpredictable.

I love the look of the new commercial LED exterior lighting. The pure white light really makes a building pop out at night. I'm in the process of converting the exterior illumination on all of my places to LED fixtures.

The energy savings, if any, are irrelevant to me. I expect LED's to be maintenance free (when you have to have a scissors lift to get to the darn things, maintenance is far more expensive than energy) and I like the look.
 
Pop Rivit
I really appreciate you taking the time to write this in detail. I have this information saved for when I am ready to tackle this project. I agree that its best to do it all at once, especially since some lighting is 10-12 feet away.
 
I stepped way out on a limb and installed two LED bulbs I scored on sale in a 2 pack. Zenaro brand. 2700K 810Lumen 12W Dimmable.


1) The super way high porch light when out tonight. GREAT! (not really!!! argggggh) Get the big ladder out in the dark drag it around the house....wow my nice assortment of flashlights helped a ton. Top of ladder scary....old indoor "flood" type lamp out, lasted over 8.5 years....new bulb in. NICE wow, bright and perfect color, and yes somewhat flood like. I say looks good and wife loves it.

2) OK real test, garage door opener light. Not the best application as it doesn't throw enough light to the sides, but not bad. Let's see how this turkey lasts.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: datech


I had another LED of the exact same type burn out a year after turning it off every night and back on every morning. Most lights burn the longest when run constantly because of less thermal movement from change in temperature.


It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


OK, frequent switching kills what??? The actual phosphors or the driver circuit that caues the phosphors to fluoresce?

Id think the latter, certainly based upon my experience of CFL meltdown.

Problem is, LEDs in high duty cycle apps like in computers have their own dedicated DC source that can be switched. Bulbs need to integrate the full AC to DC conversion in the package itself... And that means that the topology isnt that different. Ive mentioned before that one can drive LEDs with CFL electronics. The topologies wont be that different in the interest of making $9 bulbs and getting them cheaper. And so if the electronics are poor, the LED could be the greatest thing in the world, it would still "burn out" due to similar mechanisms.

That's why given Pop's numbers it will be interesting to see how the mortality rate behaves over time. Maybe (hopefully) there will be no issues and all will last a LONG time. We will see. I hope so, I like LED bulbs (though Im not anti-cfl either). However Ive noticed buzzing on some and so I do have to start to question the quality vs price point... Just like CFLs.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo

2) OK real test, garage door opener light. Not the best application as it doesn't throw enough light to the sides, but not bad. Let's see how this turkey lasts.


That will be interesting. I had read the electronics in some LED bulbs caused issues with garage door openers.

Just for kicks I tried to put an LED in my 18 year old Chamberlain opener and they wouldn't light.

Originally Posted By: GGorman04
Pop Rivit
I really appreciate you taking the time to write this in detail. I have this information saved for when I am ready to tackle this project. I agree that its best to do it all at once, especially since some lighting is 10-12 feet away.


Glad to help. I plan to monitor the electric bill and if I see a reduction I'll post it here. If/when there are any failures of the new bulbs I'll also post that as well.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
However Ive noticed buzzing on some and so I do have to start to question the quality vs price point... Just like CFLs.


So far I haven't had any buzzing or abnormal noises at all. Our house is usually quiet-no kids, no television, rural area, etc. so noises such as that are noticeable. If they do begin to make noise I'll make sure to let everyone know.
 
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Pablo

2) OK real test, garage door opener light. Not the best application as it doesn't throw enough light to the sides, but not bad. Let's see how this turkey lasts.


That will be interesting. I had read the electronics in some LED bulbs caused issues with garage door openers.

Just for kicks I tried to put an LED in my 18 year old Chamberlain opener and they wouldn't light.



It operates just fine. I was thinking the vibration would be the torture. For sure I would never use a CFL for such an application and I have purchased the heavy duty thick element incandescent, with moderate, but not so cheap success over the years. Seems odd that yours wouldn't even light. Will the high sided base not allow is to fully seat?
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Pablo

2) OK real test, garage door opener light. Not the best application as it doesn't throw enough light to the sides, but not bad. Let's see how this turkey lasts.


That will be interesting. I had read the electronics in some LED bulbs caused issues with garage door openers.

Just for kicks I tried to put an LED in my 18 year old Chamberlain opener and they wouldn't light.



It operates just fine. I was thinking the vibration would be the torture. For sure I would never use a CFL for such an application and I have purchased the heavy duty thick element incandescent, with moderate, but not so cheap success over the years. Seems odd that yours wouldn't even light. Will the high sided base not allow is to fully seat?


That's what I thought at first, but then out of curiosity I tried one of the little 2W bulbs that we used on the pergola. It also wouldn't light, and it's small enough so that I'm certain it's fully seated. For kicks I also tried one of the extra CFL's that I had around-again I'm sure it was fully seated-but it also wouldn't light in the opener.
 
Just picked up a Cree 40 watt equivalent. My first "general use" LED.

Very, very night light output. I detect and hate the low CRI of CFLs. Particularly "warm" ones-- they just look "brown" and cut any saturation from any colors.

Sticky rubbery goo on the outside of the glass... what's up with that?

They must have spent a mint in R&D to make it look like a "filament" inside.

At home depots in my state, they are $3.97 ea! I think they're subsidized somehow.

link
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino

Sticky rubbery goo on the outside of the glass... what's up with that?
[...]
At home depots in my state, they are $3.97 ea! I think they're subsidized somehow.

link


When I click on the link, it shows $9.97.
They are cheaply made for sure. Based on some web reviews, looks like the glass envelope likes to unglued itself from the base.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo

It operates just fine. I was thinking the vibration would be the torture. For sure I would never use a CFL for such an application and I have purchased the heavy duty thick element incandescent, with moderate, but not so cheap success over the years. Seems odd that yours wouldn't even light. Will the high sided base not allow is to fully seat?


Weird, I never had a problem with regular, cheap bulbs burning out in garage opener. IMHO, this is not high yield enough area to put pricy LED bulbs in (even though my wife is known to leave light on overnight sometimes).
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


OK, frequent switching kills what???


Please reread what I posted.
 
its the cathode coating.
a bit of it is lost on every start.common to all fluorescent tubes except ccfl.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
datech said:
BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


OK, frequent switching kills what??? The actual phosphors or the driver circuit that caues the phosphors to fluoresce?

Id think the latter, certainly based upon my experience of CFL meltdown.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino

Sticky rubbery goo on the outside of the glass... what's up with that?



Cree puts a coating on the bulb to prevent it from shattering in the event it's dropped.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: eljefino

Sticky rubbery goo on the outside of the glass... what's up with that?
[...]
At home depots in my state, they are $3.97 ea! I think they're subsidized somehow.

link


When I click on the link, it shows $9.97.
They are cheaply made for sure. Based on some web reviews, looks like the glass envelope likes to unglued itself from the base.


It knows your zip. I'm state subsidized.
 
Originally Posted By: kc8adu
its the cathode coating.
a bit of it is lost on every start.common to all fluorescent tubes except ccfl.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
datech said:
BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


OK, frequent switching kills what??? The actual phosphors or the driver circuit that caues the phosphors to fluoresce?

Id think the latter, certainly based upon my experience of CFL meltdown.


So what's the mechanism of failure then? A higher impedance circuit that drives higher and higher current requirements until the switching electrionics hit 1.1pu or whatever their design limit is?

Does the cathode coating itself cause the failure, or its errosion causes something else to fail? All mine have shown signs of heat and failure in the electronics portion, not the CFL itself.

Good discussion.


Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

It was my impression that frequent switching kills CFL but not LEDs. Thus, I used LEDs in such areas.

BTW, most people complaining about CFL life have them in frequent switching duty.


OK, frequent switching kills what???


Please reread what I posted.


Re-read what I asked. Yes, sure, frequent switching kills them, but what is the component that dies???
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Re-read what I asked. Yes, sure, frequent switching kills them, but what is the component that dies???


Sorry, I misread your question.

Quote:

End of life
The end of life failure mode for fluorescent lamps varies depending on how they are used and their control gear type. Often the light will turn pink (see "Loss of mercury") with black burns on the ends of the lamp due to sputtering of emission mix (see below). The lamp may also flicker at a noticeable rate (see "Flicker problems"). More information about other normal tube failure modes including the above are as follows:

Emission mix
Closeup of the filament on a low pressure mercury gas discharge lamp showing white thermionic emission mix coating on the central portion of the coil acting as hot cathode. Typically made of a mixture of barium, strontium and calcium oxides, the coating is sputtered away through normal use, often eventually resulting in lamp failure.
The "emission mix" on the tube filaments/cathodes is necessary to enable electrons to pass into the gas via thermionic emission at the tube operating voltages used. The mix is slowly sputtered off by bombardment with electrons and mercury ions during operation, but a larger amount is sputtered off each time the tube is started with cold cathodes. The method of starting the lamp has a significant impact on this. Lamps operated for typically less than 3 hours each switch-on will normally run out of the emission mix before other parts of the lamp fail. The sputtered emission mix forms the dark marks at the tube ends seen in old tubes. When all the emission mix is gone, the cathode cannot pass sufficient electrons into the gas fill to maintain the discharge at the designed tube operating voltage. Ideally, the control gear should shut down the tube when this happens. However, some control gear will provide sufficient increased voltage to continue operating the tube in cold cathode mode, which will cause overheating of the tube end and rapid disintegration of the electrodes (filament goes open-circuit) and filament support wires until they are completely gone or the glass cracks, wrecking the low pressure gas fill and stopping the gas discharge.

Ballast electronics
This may occur in compact fluorescent lamps with integral electrical ballasts or in linear lamps. Ballast electronics failure is a somewhat random process that follows the standard failure profile for any electronic device. There is an initial small peak of early failures, followed by a drop and steady increase over lamp life. Life of electronics is heavily dependent on operating temperature—it typically halves for each 10 °C temperature rise. The quoted average life of a lamp is usually at 25 °C ambient (this may vary by country). The average life of the electronics at this temperature is normally greater than this, so at this temperature, not many lamps will fail due to failure of the electronics. In some fittings, the ambient temperature could be well above this, in which case failure of the electronics may become the predominant failure mechanism. Similarly, running a compact fluorescent lamp base-up will result in hotter electronics, which can cause shorter average life (particularly with higher power rated ones). Electronic ballasts should be designed to shut down the tube when the emission mix runs out as described above. In the case of integral electronic ballasts, since they never have to work again, this is sometimes done by having them deliberately burn out some component to permanently cease operation.
In most CFLs the filaments are connected in series, with a small capacitor between them. The discharge, once lit, is in parallel to the capacitor and presents a lower-resistance path, effectively shorting the capacitor out. One of the most common failure modes of cheap lamps is caused by underrating this capacitor (using lower-voltage, lower-cost part), which is very stressed during operation, leading to its premature failure.[29]

Phosphor
The phosphor drops off in efficiency during use. By around 25,000 operating hours, it will typically be half the brightness of a new lamp (although some manufacturers claim much longer half-lives for their lamps). Lamps that do not suffer failures of the emission mix or integral ballast electronics will eventually develop this failure mode. They still work, but have become dim and inefficient. The process is slow, and often becomes obvious only when a new lamp is operating next to an old one.

Loss of mercury
As in all mercury-based gas-filled tubes, mercury is slowly absorbed into glass, phosphor, and tube electrodes throughout the lamp life, where it can no longer function. Newer lamps now have just enough mercury to last the expected life of the lamp. Loss of mercury will take over from failure of the phosphor in some lamps. The failure symptoms are similar, except loss of mercury initially causes an extended run-up time to full light output, and finally causes the lamp to glow a dim pink when the mercury runs out and the argon base gas takes over as the primary discharge.[30]
Subjecting the tube to asymmetric waveforms, where the total current flow through the tube does not cancel out and the tube effectively operates under a DC bias, causes asymmetric distribution of mercury ions along the tube due to cataphoresis. The localized depletion of mercury vapor pressure manifests as pink luminescence of the base gas in the vicinity of one of the electrodes, and the operating lifetime of the lamp may be dramatically shortened. This can be an issue with some poorly designed inverters.[31]
The same effect can be observed with new tubes. Mercury is present in the form of an amalgam and takes some time to be liberated in sufficient amount. New lamps may initially glow pink for several seconds after startup. This period is minimized after about 100 hours of operation.[32]

Burned filaments
The filaments can burn at the end of the lamp's lifetime, opening the circuit and losing the capability to heat up. Both filaments lose function as they are connected in series, with just a simple switch start circuit a broken filament will render the lamp completely useless. Filaments rarely burn or fail open circuit unless the filament becomes depleted of emitter and the control gear is able to supply a high enough voltage across the tube to operate it in cold cathode mode. Some digital electronic ballasts are capable of detecting broken filaments and can still strike an arc with one or both filaments broken providing there is still sufficient emitter. A broken filament in a lamp attached to a magnetic ballast often causes both lamps to burn out or flicker.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
 
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