Jumping on filter every other oil change bandwagon
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Originally Posted By: Darren270
Quote:
There's a lot of data showing that filters are more efficient after being in service for a while.
Link?
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Quote:
There's a lot of data showing that filters are more efficient after being in service for a while.
Link?
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
My filter stash for the Civic includes:
K&N HP-1010
Mobil 1 M1-110 (x2)
Bosch Distance Plus D3323
Bosch Premium 3323
Purolator Pure One PL14610
Purolator Classic L14610 (x2)
I'm thinking I will use any one of the above for two OCIs except the Classic (saving those for the Accord).
I'm ready to be attacked from all sides.
No attack from me- its your call and I see no real "danger" to your engine, although I lean more toward changing the filter halfway through a long OCI. But that's just me.
Looking at your stash, though, I would not do what you suggest with the, Bosch Premium, Puro classic or P1, nor with the M1.
I love the Purolators, but they're just not long OCI filters like, for example, a Royal Purple or Fram Ultra. Here's a P1 (oversized for the application, no less) that I accidentally ran for 9k miles last year:
It survived it, but I really wouldn't want to push it all the way to, say, 15k. I'm a big believer in using "surface filtration" media (fine pore, thin material) for short filter change intervals, and "depth filtration" media (larger pore, thicker, synthetic)for long FCIs.
My filter stash for the Civic includes:
K&N HP-1010
Mobil 1 M1-110 (x2)
Bosch Distance Plus D3323
Bosch Premium 3323
Purolator Pure One PL14610
Purolator Classic L14610 (x2)
I'm thinking I will use any one of the above for two OCIs except the Classic (saving those for the Accord).
I'm ready to be attacked from all sides.
No attack from me- its your call and I see no real "danger" to your engine, although I lean more toward changing the filter halfway through a long OCI. But that's just me.
Looking at your stash, though, I would not do what you suggest with the, Bosch Premium, Puro classic or P1, nor with the M1.
I love the Purolators, but they're just not long OCI filters like, for example, a Royal Purple or Fram Ultra. Here's a P1 (oversized for the application, no less) that I accidentally ran for 9k miles last year:
It survived it, but I really wouldn't want to push it all the way to, say, 15k. I'm a big believer in using "surface filtration" media (fine pore, thin material) for short filter change intervals, and "depth filtration" media (larger pore, thicker, synthetic)for long FCIs.
I have doing this practice for years - it is actually recommended for every motorcycle I have ever owned by the manufacturer.
If its good for a sump with a shared clutch - than its ok for my little 4 banger.
I probably would not do it if the engine had a lot of blow-by or was not maintained properly.
my2c
If its good for a sump with a shared clutch - than its ok for my little 4 banger.
I probably would not do it if the engine had a lot of blow-by or was not maintained properly.
my2c
Originally Posted By: cchase
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: cchase
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
Reality check, though. Besides cold start and WOT or high RPMs, how restrictive is that filter really going to be? And if it is capturing finer particles later in an OCI, it could function akin to a bypass filter, so you still may have less harmful particles floating around even if it operates in bypass part of the time.
Okay, that was more theory than reality. The real check would be testing to prove one way or the other. Not gonna happen in a passenger car environment.
Originally Posted By: cchase
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
Reality check, though. Besides cold start and WOT or high RPMs, how restrictive is that filter really going to be? And if it is capturing finer particles later in an OCI, it could function akin to a bypass filter, so you still may have less harmful particles floating around even if it operates in bypass part of the time.
Okay, that was more theory than reality. The real check would be testing to prove one way or the other. Not gonna happen in a passenger car environment.
So what are the bad outcomes of too long on a filter (either oil or air)? Say the oil was changed regularly, but I go 50,000 miles on both the air and oil filter? I imagine the air filter gets plugged-up and the engine loses some power. What about the oil filter? Plugged up?
Is it true the longer you leave air/oil filters, the better they filter?
Is it true the longer you leave air/oil filters, the better they filter?
Originally Posted By: theaveng
So what are the bad outcomes of too long on a filter (either oil or air)? Say the oil was changed regularly, but I go 50,000 miles on both the air and oil filter? I imagine the air filter gets plugged-up and the engine loses some power. What about the oil filter? Plugged up?
Is it true the longer you leave air/oil filters, the better they filter?
If you beleive K&N advertizing... ;-)
Its possible that as the larger pores get plugged with particles, only smaller pores remain so the accumulation rate increases and finer particles that would have originally passed through the filter now get trapped. I don't know that its significant in practice, though.
But in my opinion, oil filters not meant for long-duration use can get prone to internal media collapse. Look at the P1 picture I linked above- that little break in the media appears to be caused by repeated flexing of the pleats as the differential pressure went up and down with cold starts and/or variations in engine RPM. And it probably only became an issue because the filter meant for short intervals was getting plugged enough to develop more differential pressure than when new. Long-use filters have wire mesh pleat formers to prevent collapse as differential pressure goes up, and also the media is designed not to develop as much increase in differential pressure as it loads up with dirt. The price you pay is... a higher price. Its no longer necessarily true that long-use oil filters don't trap as fine particles as do short-use filters, even in a single pass test:
http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/oilfilter/comparison.html
So what are the bad outcomes of too long on a filter (either oil or air)? Say the oil was changed regularly, but I go 50,000 miles on both the air and oil filter? I imagine the air filter gets plugged-up and the engine loses some power. What about the oil filter? Plugged up?
Is it true the longer you leave air/oil filters, the better they filter?
If you beleive K&N advertizing... ;-)
Its possible that as the larger pores get plugged with particles, only smaller pores remain so the accumulation rate increases and finer particles that would have originally passed through the filter now get trapped. I don't know that its significant in practice, though.
But in my opinion, oil filters not meant for long-duration use can get prone to internal media collapse. Look at the P1 picture I linked above- that little break in the media appears to be caused by repeated flexing of the pleats as the differential pressure went up and down with cold starts and/or variations in engine RPM. And it probably only became an issue because the filter meant for short intervals was getting plugged enough to develop more differential pressure than when new. Long-use filters have wire mesh pleat formers to prevent collapse as differential pressure goes up, and also the media is designed not to develop as much increase in differential pressure as it loads up with dirt. The price you pay is... a higher price. Its no longer necessarily true that long-use oil filters don't trap as fine particles as do short-use filters, even in a single pass test:
http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/oilfilter/comparison.html
I just had my oil changed at Pep Boys. Think the oil filter (whatever brand they used) will last to 10,000 miles?
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Imagine leaving a filter on that wasn't working properly for 2 OCI's?
Then again, since oil filter failure rates are miniscule, you're actually increasing the chances you'll stumble across a bad filter by changing more often. You could be replacing a perfectly good one with the rare bad one.
That's not how odds work. If the odds of a bad filter are 1 in 100,000, those odds are the same very time you change the filter. It doesn't change.
Originally Posted By: skyship
There is no approved used oil disposal system in Germany, so DIY oil changes cost nearly as much as asking the equivalent of an Iffy lube place to do it
There used to be lakes full of oil before the industrial revolution happened. I don't see anything wrong with returning the oil where it came from (the earth).
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Imagine leaving a filter on that wasn't working properly for 2 OCI's?
Then again, since oil filter failure rates are miniscule, you're actually increasing the chances you'll stumble across a bad filter by changing more often. You could be replacing a perfectly good one with the rare bad one.
That's not how odds work. If the odds of a bad filter are 1 in 100,000, those odds are the same very time you change the filter. It doesn't change.
Originally Posted By: skyship
There is no approved used oil disposal system in Germany, so DIY oil changes cost nearly as much as asking the equivalent of an Iffy lube place to do it
There used to be lakes full of oil before the industrial revolution happened. I don't see anything wrong with returning the oil where it came from (the earth).
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Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: cchase
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
Reality check, though. Besides cold start and WOT or high RPMs, how restrictive is that filter really going to be? And if it is capturing finer particles later in an OCI, it could function akin to a bypass filter, so you still may have less harmful particles floating around even if it operates in bypass part of the time.
Okay, that was more theory than reality. The real check would be testing to prove one way or the other. Not gonna happen in a passenger car environment.
An air filter does not have a "bypass mode". As people quip on here, the most efficient air filter would pass no material, or air. This is fundamental filter stuff... higher restriction filters allow fewer contaminants through given identical surface area.
On an oil filter however, the "ideal" filter that allows nothing through (a completely plugged air filter) doesn't trap finer and finer particles, it just ends up trapping nothing at all.
Think about it like putting a screen in the middle of a river. Some water will go through the screen, being filtered as it passes through. As the screen plugs up entirely with contaminants, it will behave like a steel plate. It filters no water, the river just rushes around it unfiltered.
I'm not suggesting that by running a filter for 2 OCI's you lose all filtering potential, but now that we're dragging out filtration theory...
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: cchase
I believe that filters without a bypass become more efficient with use, but I struggle to believe that an oil filter doesn't just go into bypass more and more easily as the filter is loaded.
Interesting point, I'd not thought of that and it makes perfect sense. The more the filter is loaded the more likely a higher pressure differential would develop.
Reality check, though. Besides cold start and WOT or high RPMs, how restrictive is that filter really going to be? And if it is capturing finer particles later in an OCI, it could function akin to a bypass filter, so you still may have less harmful particles floating around even if it operates in bypass part of the time.
Okay, that was more theory than reality. The real check would be testing to prove one way or the other. Not gonna happen in a passenger car environment.
An air filter does not have a "bypass mode". As people quip on here, the most efficient air filter would pass no material, or air. This is fundamental filter stuff... higher restriction filters allow fewer contaminants through given identical surface area.
On an oil filter however, the "ideal" filter that allows nothing through (a completely plugged air filter) doesn't trap finer and finer particles, it just ends up trapping nothing at all.
Think about it like putting a screen in the middle of a river. Some water will go through the screen, being filtered as it passes through. As the screen plugs up entirely with contaminants, it will behave like a steel plate. It filters no water, the river just rushes around it unfiltered.
I'm not suggesting that by running a filter for 2 OCI's you lose all filtering potential, but now that we're dragging out filtration theory...
Originally Posted By: theaveng
That's not how odds work. If the odds of a bad filter are 1 in 100,000, those odds are the same very time you change the filter. It doesn't change.
No, your "odds" each single change are the same, but cumulatively speaking, if you use double the number of filters in 10 years, your "odds" of getting a bad one are higher.
Say I put 100 filters in a huge pile, but one of them is bad. If I use 10 of those filters over the next year instead of just 5, my chances of getting the one bad one have doubled.
So each and every single change my chances of getting the bad one are 1 in 100, but if I use 10 out of the pile instead of 5 my cumulative possibility of getting the bad one is higher.
Kind of a moot point though because truly "bad" filters are exceedingly rare IMO.
That's not how odds work. If the odds of a bad filter are 1 in 100,000, those odds are the same very time you change the filter. It doesn't change.
No, your "odds" each single change are the same, but cumulatively speaking, if you use double the number of filters in 10 years, your "odds" of getting a bad one are higher.
Say I put 100 filters in a huge pile, but one of them is bad. If I use 10 of those filters over the next year instead of just 5, my chances of getting the one bad one have doubled.
So each and every single change my chances of getting the bad one are 1 in 100, but if I use 10 out of the pile instead of 5 my cumulative possibility of getting the bad one is higher.
Kind of a moot point though because truly "bad" filters are exceedingly rare IMO.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
No attack from me- its your call and I see no real "danger" to your engine, although I lean more toward changing the filter halfway through a long OCI. But that's just me.
Looking at your stash, though, I would not do what you suggest with the, Bosch Premium, Puro classic or P1, nor with the M1.
I am a little surprised to see you include M1 in that group considering this filter is often regarded as an extended OCI filter (ie: up to 15,000 miles)
No attack from me- its your call and I see no real "danger" to your engine, although I lean more toward changing the filter halfway through a long OCI. But that's just me.
Looking at your stash, though, I would not do what you suggest with the, Bosch Premium, Puro classic or P1, nor with the M1.
I am a little surprised to see you include M1 in that group considering this filter is often regarded as an extended OCI filter (ie: up to 15,000 miles)
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
The car manual tells me not to. It says change the oil filter every other time (15,000). And change the air filter every 4th time (30,000).
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
Great logic. Better change out your oil after every drive cycle as well then. And your air filter.
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
Great logic. Better change out your oil after every drive cycle as well then. And your air filter.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
No, but after seeing how expensive Toilet paper cost I have considered flipping it and using both sides
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
No, but after seeing how expensive Toilet paper cost I have considered flipping it and using both sides
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Even Magnefine filters suggest 30,000mile replacements. The average auto trans produces much more debris than an engine during the equivalent oci.
It simply is not necessary to change the oil filter as frequently as previously through or taught.
It comes down to necessity and efficiency, not laziness or cheapness.
It simply is not necessary to change the oil filter as frequently as previously through or taught.
It comes down to necessity and efficiency, not laziness or cheapness.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
The toilet paper analogy you used in your argument doesn't make any sense, but I will mention the original intent of this:
Originally Posted By: sir1900
I have read the "cheap insurance" argument, which I understand why some feel this way, but the rationale goes beyond saving the money for the cost of the filter. What's at the heart of the argument is, is it necessary to change the filter if used oil is "cleaner" than ever before and secondly why waste resources if you absolutely don't have to?
Again, I want to reiterate, this has nothing to do with cost. Zero.
Why would someone NOT want to change their oil filter every oil change? Price? Laziness? Because "others" are not? Would you use the same toilet paper to wipe you rear end,every other time?
The toilet paper analogy you used in your argument doesn't make any sense, but I will mention the original intent of this:
Originally Posted By: sir1900
I have read the "cheap insurance" argument, which I understand why some feel this way, but the rationale goes beyond saving the money for the cost of the filter. What's at the heart of the argument is, is it necessary to change the filter if used oil is "cleaner" than ever before and secondly why waste resources if you absolutely don't have to?
Again, I want to reiterate, this has nothing to do with cost. Zero.
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