Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?

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Negotiate. Go to toyotapartseast.com and type in the part no for Toyota (which you can find on the picture in the first post here). Get a printout of the price and show it to the dealer. You should be able to get it for $5.50 or less. Also tell them that you will buy a whole case of 12 if they give you the price you want.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The long story short, I am never going back to dino (even though they say never say never
smile.gif
). I don't know for sure if I would have seen a difference over M1 0W-20, which I have never tried in this car but in a newer car, or some other high-quality 0W-20, but the difference from the dino 5W-20 is simply huge. ...
But they are BOTH dino - one goes another round through the hydrofinisher. I would say your may be feeling the 0w and its 10%+ Vii shear behind the Piston and in the Rod bigs. The oil feels initially slickery-er as the polymer breaks and you have just the near-weightless base oil. Youll feel this on a good 5w-30 vs the 10w-30. More esters in the low mutigrades as pour point depressant.
I notice a healthy moly dose feels good, too. I could operate my Yaris 1NZfe engine down at 1.5-2K rpm with the old SM Formula Shell with the big moly package vs anything else fauxsyn or mineral with which the engine would not light throttle cruise down that low. The Shell stuck rings like mad though.

VIIs do shear temporarily under high shear (in addition to permanently shearing over time), and I think you're right that you get a fuel-economy benefit from the temporary (not permanent) shear of VIIs under high shear, which is more noticeable in multigrades with wider viscosity spread.

When people say dino, they refer to Group II+ or lower. Group III has evolved a lot and the newest Group III+ base oils are almost (but not quite) as good as Group IV (PAO). API allows Group III to be legally called as fully synthetic. See the references I gave earlier. You will see in those references that the base-oil coefficient of friction goes as IV < III+ < III < II+ < II < I. The same thing is true for base-oil oxidation. Therefore, viscosities and friction modifiers being equivalent, you benefit in friction, especially over the life of oil, with higher-quality base oil.

Regarding moly, with the Infineum trinuclear moly, all you need is about 50 - 100 ppm for maximum benefits. It's much better than any other kind of moly and you don't need it to dump it in huge amounts to see full benefits. There is already a reference posted about it on this board. 200 - 1000 ppm of moly is a thing of the past with the introduction of the Infineum trinuclear moly.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Negotiate. Go to toyotapartseast.com and type in the part no for Toyota (which you can find on the picture in the first post here). Get a printout of the price and show it to the dealer. You should be able to get it for $5.50 or less. Also tell them that you will buy a whole case of 12 if they give you the price you want.


Is a case 6 or 12 qts? It is $64.74 before shipping. With shipping is it $92.24.

Thanks for the Toyota parts link. Never heard of this company before. Where are they located I wonder?
 
Originally Posted By: Oldwolf
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Negotiate. Go to toyotapartseast.com and type in the part no for Toyota (which you can find on the picture in the first post here). Get a printout of the price and show it to the dealer. You should be able to get it for $5.50 or less. Also tell them that you will buy a whole case of 12 if they give you the price you want.


Is a case 6 or 12 qts? It is $64.74 before shipping. With shipping is it $92.24.

Thanks for the Toyota parts link. Never heard of this company before. Where are they located I wonder?


12...
 
Originally Posted By: jek
Originally Posted By: Oldwolf
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Negotiate. Go to toyotapartseast.com and type in the part no for Toyota (which you can find on the picture in the first post here). Get a printout of the price and show it to the dealer. You should be able to get it for $5.50 or less. Also tell them that you will buy a whole case of 12 if they give you the price you want.


Is a case 6 or 12 qts? It is $64.74 before shipping. With shipping is it $92.24.

Thanks for the Toyota parts link. Never heard of this company before. Where are they located I wonder?

12...

Unfortunately you can't have oil shipped at a reasonable cost because it's considered hazardous material. Therefore, you don't really have the option of buying the oil from them.

There is a dealer here that gives similar price on Toyota parts ordered through their "Trademotion" Web site but it's a little too far from me. I managed to get about the same price from a dealer only a mile away by telling that the other dealer is selling it at $5.50. Ironically, this nearby dealer also had the Trademotion Web site with discounted prices but they stopped using it. You can check to see if there is a dealer with Trademotion nearby you so that you can get a lower online price.

Most car dealers sell the parts at twice the actual list price and three times what they cost them. If you look at this Toyota bulletin, you will see that Toyota/ExxonMobil sells the 0W-20 quart bottles to the dealers for only $3.89. The cost of the bulk 0W-20 is even less, only $3.19 per quart. So, it's costing the Toyota dealer only $16 for 5 quarts of fully synthetic 0W-20 when they do an oil change.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
API allows Group III to be legally called as fully synthetic.


Just to clarify, the practice of referring to Group III based oils as "synthetic" is not a legal issue, and the API has nothing to do with it.

In 1999 the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau, in response to a complaint from Mobil, judged that Castrol Syntec, which was based on a Group III+, could be called "synthetic". In light of this non-binding ruling, all of the rest of the Group III manufacturers and blenders decided it was safe to expand that interpretation to cover all Group IIIs and proceeded to do so. It was a low risk marketing decision, betting that no one would challenge the move after the NAD ruling, and they were right. As a result, the "synthetic" line was drawn by the oil marketers between Group II+ and Group III, which differ by a single VI point. This took pretty much all of the meaning out of the term.

On the plus side, the rush into the higher profit Group III synthetics created a sharp increase in demand for Group IIIs, which spurred increased production and availability, and in turn spurred tighter oil specifications from engine builders. As a result the overall quality of motor oils in the market was bumped up over the past dozen years, while increased competition in the synthetic sector lowered prices. Net net, we get more choices of high quality motor oils and the oil companies get a higher profit margin - a win win.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: jek
Originally Posted By: Oldwolf
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Negotiate. Go to toyotapartseast.com and type in the part no for Toyota (which you can find on the picture in the first post here). Get a printout of the price and show it to the dealer. You should be able to get it for $5.50 or less. Also tell them that you will buy a whole case of 12 if they give you the price you want.


Is a case 6 or 12 qts? It is $64.74 before shipping. With shipping is it $92.24.

Thanks for the Toyota parts link. Never heard of this company before. Where are they located I wonder?

12...

Unfortunately you can't have oil shipped at a reasonable cost because it's considered hazardous material. Therefore, you don't really have the option of buying the oil from them.

There is a dealer here that gives similar price on Toyota parts ordered through their "Trademotion" Web site but it's a little too far from me. I managed to get about the same price from a dealer only a mile away by telling that the other dealer is selling it at $5.50. Ironically, this nearby dealer also had the Trademotion Web site with discounted prices but they stopped using it. You can check to see if there is a dealer with Trademotion nearby you so that you can get a lower online price.

Most car dealers sell the parts at twice the actual list price and three times what they cost them. If you look at this Toyota bulletin, you will see that Toyota/ExxonMobil sells the 0W-20 quart bottles to the dealers for only $3.89. The cost of the bulk 0W-20 is even less, only $3.19 per quart. So, it's costing the Toyota dealer only $16 for 5 quarts of fully synthetic 0W-20 when they do an oil change.


Quote:
...considered hazardous material.


Not according to BLACKSTONE
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Quote:
...considered hazardous material.

Not according to BLACKSTONE

I know. I send oil to Blackstone and I don't think it's hazardous material either, but these guys will charge you a huge hazardous-material-shipping fee if you try to order online from them and have it shipped to you.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
API allows Group III to be legally called as fully synthetic.


Just to clarify, the practice of referring to Group III based oils as "synthetic" is not a legal issue, and the API has nothing to do with it.

In 1999 the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau, in response to a complaint from Mobil, judged that Castrol Syntec, which was based on a Group III+, could be called "synthetic". In light of this non-binding ruling, all of the rest of the Group III manufacturers and blenders decided it was safe to expand that interpretation to cover all Group IIIs and proceeded to do so. It was a low risk marketing decision, betting that no one would challenge the move after the NAD ruling, and they were right. As a result, the "synthetic" line was drawn by the oil marketers between Group II+ and Group III, which differ by a single VI point. This took pretty much all of the meaning out of the term.

On the plus side, the rush into the higher profit Group III synthetics created a sharp increase in demand for Group IIIs, which spurred increased production and availability, and in turn spurred tighter oil specifications from engine builders. As a result the overall quality of motor oils in the market was bumped up over the past dozen years, while increased competition in the synthetic sector lowered prices. Net net, we get more choices of high quality motor oils and the oil companies get a higher profit margin - a win win.

Tom NJ

I think you're mostly right. It appears that what can be marketed as "synthetic" is not being regulated by API but by some other means. It's not legal to market Group II+ or lower as synthetic, although API is not overseeing it.

I was basically referring to the last page of this Infineum API brochure, which says the following:

• Companies also use their own marketing phrases: “Group 1-1/2” and “Group 2+”
• “Group III” can be legally labeled “Synthetic”
- The word “Synthetic” is not part of the API Classification
- “Synthetic” is a marketing term, not a technical term
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's not legal to market Group II+ or lower as synthetic, although API is not overseeing it.


There are no laws governing the use of the term synthetic at all - it is just an industry practice.

If you chose to market a Group II as synthetic, someone may challenge you just as Mobil challenged Castrol, but no one is willing to challenge the use of Group IIIs after the NAD ruling.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Isn't it 2% that Mobil claims for it's AFE oils over their 5W-20 and 5W-30 counterparts? And with their 0W-30 the VI is actually lower although it has a slightly lower HTHSV.

Also high doses of Moly in the 600-700 ppm is also supposed to increase fuel economy alone by almost 2%. That's what the original moly supplier for the Toyota oil (Adeka-Sakura Lube) claimed.

I also accept the fact that the CoF of GP III oils is lower than that of GP II oils, GP III+ lower than GP III, GP IV lower than GP III+ and some GP V oils lower than GP IV which results in better fuel economy, all other factors being equal.

All told, I don't have a problem accepting a 2% fuel economy gain claim at normal operating temp's. Do I believe the average driver can accurately measure that small gain for themselves? I don't think so since there are so many variables that affect mileage that can't be eliminated.

Personally fuel economy is not the reason I use synthetic oil, oils with robust AW additive levels and oils with high VIs.
The reason is because engines run better with more power and responsiveness. The better fuel economy is a nice added bonus.


But he's saying 2MPG, not 2%. 2% would be just a bit over .5Mpg.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Just to clarify, the practice of referring to Group III based oils as "synthetic" is not a legal issue, and the API has nothing to do with it.


Absolutely. I recently went through that in another thread here. And as ARCO has put forward a number of times, the line between pure conventionals and Group III and higher oils has become a bit blurred with grades like 5w-20 and the SN/GF-5 standards.
 
Originally Posted By: Indydriver


I also note with curiosity that, after your glowing review on this wonder oil, you're planning to dump it at 3,000 miles in what looks like a pretty tame application. Toyota is asking me to believe that this oil is good for 10,000 OCIs in my 2012. Your plan doesn't seem to match up with your assumptions about this oil. How come?


He never said he was planning to dump it...he said he was planning to do a UOA. The oil does not have to be fully drained to pull a sample for a UOA. For example, I have a fancy pump from Blackstone that lets me pull a sample via the dipstick tube.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

When people say dino, they refer to Group II+ or lower.

Arco Reply: I know, I'm trying to break them of this bad habit
smile.gif

-
-
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

API allows Group III to be legally called as fully synthetic.
smile.gif

Arco Reply: I don't think API cares a diddly about synthetic vs mineral - they both have to meet their target grade and service category, be it PCMO SN or HDEO CJ. That was a NAB decision - not a legal FTC matter, IIRC - though it dang should be. Fibbing Fat Cats - all of them!
-
-

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Regarding moly, with the Infineum trinuclear moly, all you need is about 50 - 100 ppm for maximum benefits. It's much better than any other kind of moly and you don't need it to dump it in huge amounts to see full benefits. There is already a reference posted about it on this board. 200 - 1000 ppm of moly is a thing of the past with the introduction of the Infineum trinuclear moly.
Arco: I'll see when I move back to an ILSAC GF-5 oil in my Honda. I may run: Kendall Full Syn or Castrol EDGE w/Ti or Maybe Amsoil Signature.
The car hated the last batch of idemitsu subaru 0w20.
whaddya think?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Isn't it 2% that Mobil claims for it's AFE oils over their 5W-20 and 5W-30 counterparts? And with their 0W-30 the VI is actually lower although it has a slightly lower HTHSV.

Also high doses of Moly in the 600-700 ppm is also supposed to increase fuel economy alone by almost 2%. That's what the original moly supplier for the Toyota oil (Adeka-Sakura Lube) claimed.

I also accept the fact that the CoF of GP III oils is lower than that of GP II oils, GP III+ lower than GP III, GP IV lower than GP III+ and some GP V oils lower than GP IV which results in better fuel economy, all other factors being equal.

All told, I don't have a problem accepting a 2% fuel economy gain claim at normal operating temp's. Do I believe the average driver can accurately measure that small gain for themselves? I don't think so since there are so many variables that affect mileage that can't be eliminated.

Personally fuel economy is not the reason I use synthetic oil, oils with robust AW additive levels and oils with high VIs.
The reason is because engines run better with more power and responsiveness. The better fuel economy is a nice added bonus.


But he's saying 2MPG, not 2%. 2% would be just a bit over .5Mpg.

Right. You'd have to factor in a high percentage of short trips to take full advantage of the ultra high VI to get a 5% increase in fuel economy.
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
The transmission shifts better because the engine is not experiencing slow down during shifting. There is always a simple explanation.


You want MORE slow down to naturally sync the engine with the revs.
The opposite.
 
Originally Posted By: jigen
If I still had my 85 corolla I'd be putting in the cheapest oil on sale and call it a day.

That's a self-contradictory statement because with that mentality in general, you would never be able to keep an older car running.

You can ignore maintenance on a brand-new car and go with a 100,000-mile OCI and also no other maintenance at all, and it will still run just fine but the older cars should be maintained in the best way possible.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Regarding moly, with the Infineum trinuclear moly, all you need is about 50 - 100 ppm for maximum benefits. It's much better than any other kind of moly and you don't need it to dump it in huge amounts to see full benefits. There is already a reference posted about it on this board. 200 - 1000 ppm of moly is a thing of the past with the introduction of the Infineum trinuclear moly.
Arco: I'll see when I move back to an ILSAC GF-5 oil in my Honda. I may run: Kendall Full Syn or Castrol EDGE w/Ti or Maybe Amsoil Signature.
The car hated the last batch of idemitsu subaru 0w20.
whaddya think?

In what ways the car didn't perform well with the Subaru 0W-20?
 
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