Is this chart still valid for todays oils?

[pscholte]

M'man,

From what I've read it seems that Leichtlauföl refers to Hydrocracked oils whereas "vollsynthetisch" are the true synthetics. The possibility does remain that under an overall category "Leichtlauföl" are the vollsynthetisch (whole synthetic), the teilsynthetisch (part synthetic or synthetic blends) and the HCs or hydrocracked

 

[geo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

---

Could it be that "A" is synthetic and "B" is dino?

---

Column A shows "Leichtlauföl" - oil that contains friction modifiers and that also meets VW500.00 (replaced by VW502.00). Those oils are to my best knowledge all synthetic oils and almost always "energy conserving."

Column B shows multigrade oils, which could be HC, blended, or dino oils.

That chart cleary shows that synthetic oil protects at high temperatures better than a dino oil of the same viscosity range.

Interesting that your 2001 manual shows no viscosity chart. Do you have a 2.8 30v or a 1.8T?

---

According to EU Audi manuals, column A oils are 500.00 spec oils, and column B oils are 501.01 spec oils. For some reason, these labels have been removed from US manuals, although EU manuals say if API SF/SG is used follow the 501.01 chart. 500 oils are typically synthetic and synthetic blends, and 501.01 are dino and very heavy synthetic and synthetic blends. Not all synthetic oils pass 500.00 specs and not all dino oils pass 501.01 specs.

M1 xW-30 did not pass 500.00 (or the newer 502)because of HTHS and other VW/Audi seal/wear/sludge requirements. I believe the EU Castrol 0W-30 is 502/500 spec. So, not all synthetic xW-30 (and xW-40 oils meet 500/502.

 

[quadrun1]

The excerpt I posted is from the manual of a friend's '01 A4 2.8 Quattro.

 

[geo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

---

Could it be that "A" is synthetic and "B" is dino?

---

Column A shows "Leichtlauföl" - oil that contains friction modifiers and that also meets VW500.00 (replaced by VW502.00). Those oils are to my best knowledge all synthetic oils and almost always "energy conserving."

Column B shows multigrade oils, which could be HC, blended, or dino oils.

That chart cleary shows that synthetic oil protects at high temperatures better than a dino oil of the same viscosity range.

Interesting that your 2001 manual shows no viscosity chart. Do you have a 2.8 30v or a 1.8T?

---

According to EU Audi manuals, column A oils are 500.00 spec oils, and column B oils are 501.01 spec oils. For some reason, these labels were removed from US manuals (although EU manuals say if mineral SF/SG is used follow the 501.01 chart). 500 oils are typically synthetic and synthetic blends, and 501.01 are dino and very heavy synthetic and synthetic blends. Not all synthetic oils pass 500.00 specs and not all dino oils pass 501.01 specs.

M1 xW-30 did not pass 500.00 (or the newer 502)because of HTHS and other VW/Audi seal/wear/sludge requirements. I believe the EU Castrol 0W-30 is 502/500 spec. So, not all synthetic xW-30 (and xW-40) oils meet 500/502.

---

 

[geo]

Please excuse the above double posting - I was trying to edit my original message.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

---

From what I've read it seems that Leichtlauföl refers to Hydrocracked oils whereas "vollsynthetisch" are the true synthetics. The possibility does remain that under an overall category "Leichtlauföl" are the vollsynthetisch (whole synthetic), the teilsynthetisch (part synthetic or synthetic blends) and the HCs or hydrocracked

---

pscholte,

The term "Leichtlauföl" refers to oil with friction modifiers, but almost all of them were full synthetic oils. I know that German full synthetci oils are usually labeled as "Vollsynthese" oder "vollsynthetisches Leichtlauföl."

I guess every full sythetic oil is also a "Leichtlauföl," but not every "Leichtlauföl" is necessesarily a full synthtic oil. It could also be an "HC" oil. And that's also a label I see on oil sold in Europe.

The issue came never up when I owned a car in Germany (late '80s/early'90s). I put a full synthtic oil (BP Strato) which back then cost already $15 per liter, and I never used any HC or dino in my '89 Scirocco. I just went with the dealer's recommendation, which was that particular oil.

quote:

---

According to EU Audi manuals, column A oils are 500.00 spec oils, and column B oils are 501.01 spec oils. For some reason, these labels were removed from US manuals (although EU manuals say if mineral SF/SG is used follow the 501.01 chart). 500 oils are typically synthetic and synthetic blends, and 501.01 are dino and very heavy synthetic and synthetic blends. Not all synthetic oils pass 500.00 specs and not all dino oils pass 501.01 specs.

M1 xW-30 did not pass 500.00 (or the newer 502)because of HTHS and other VW/Audi seal/wear/sludge requirements. I believe the EU Castrol 0W-30 is 502/500 spec. So, not all synthetic xW-30 (and xW-40) oils meet 500/502.

---

Yes, you are reading the chart correctly, but I'm not sure if the VW500.00 oils were usually not true synthtics. It really doesn't matter anymore, because VW500.00 has been superseeded by VW502.00. That's the spec I'm looking for when chosing an oil for my Audi, despite the fact that there was no VW502.00 when my car was made. VW501.00 has been replaced since, too.

I find it interesting, and disconcerting, that M1 0W-30 does not meet VW502.00, because so many fellow Audi drivers actually use it! Audi seems to have a double standard regarding oil recommendations: "Here, if in Europe use only this good stuff that meets those very particular VW specs, if you are outside of Europe, then just put anything in."

And I think this might hint at what's going on with some makes now. Some car manufacturers seem to strictly endorse certain products (underhood sticker). Maybe it's to ensure peole use the correct oil? Let's face it, who, apart from people like us, compares oil spec sheets?

PS: quadrun1, your friend's car has the 30 valve engine, mine's still a 12v. It may well be that Audi does not recommend any oil heavier than 5W-40 for that engine.

 

[pscholte]

M'man,

Did they still sell Shell TMO when you lived there? When I lived in Germany in the early 80's as far as I was concerned this was THE oil. It cost around $12 a liter. It was a Leichtlauföl but I don't know to this day if it was HC or vollsynthetisch.

 

[JohnBrowning]

What kills me is how naive some people are. How can anyone think that one weight of oil can protect for best under all conditions from pulling 1 ton trailer through the mountains, driveing 100MPH through the desert and cold cranking dureing an artic winter. Their is no such thing as a one oil weight engine!!! All the manufactures have done is dumb done their owners manuals for us stupid Americans!!! I am not a lemhing(sp) and chose independent thought over being spoon feed. What the heck is the point of even haveing this site if all we need is some Supertech 5W30! I am the only person that thinks that this is insane to abondon a century worth of automotive comon sense and just use 5w30 for everything??

How is it that with all this new fangled technology, better materials,tolerance control and the wounder of 5W30 that vechile powertrain lifes cycles have not improved at all in the last 10 years. Why is it that we have not elimanated smokeing engines? Seems to me that all the so called thin oils have done is maintained the status quo.

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:

I find it interesting, and disconcerting, that M1 0W-30 does not meet VW502.00, because so many fellow Audi drivers actually use it! Audi seems to have a double standard regarding oil recommendations: "Here, if in Europe use only this good stuff that meets those very particular VW specs, if you are outside of Europe, then just put anything in."

And I think this might hint at what's going on with some makes now. Some car manufacturers seem to strictly endorse certain products (underhood sticker). Maybe it's to ensure peole use the correct oil? Let's face it, who, apart from people like us, compares oil spec sheets?

---

SAAB is vague too! They make reference to API SL, ILSAC GF-3, and ACEA A3 in the manual, but their service fill for the 9-5 is a semi-synthetic 5W-30 (ACEA A1) oil!

And for the new 9-3 SS with flexible service intervals, they mandate M1 0W-30 or SAAB 0W-30 (a synthetic made by Mobil, with slightly different additives), neither of which meet ACEA A3, either.

BMW is a bit curious; in current vehicles they make no mention of ACEA A3, but their service fill is a Castrol Group III 5W-30 syn meeting A3. However, they also specifically approve the use of Mobil 1 5W-30, which most definitely does NOT meet A3!

My choice for these cars is M1 0W-40, which not only meets A3 spec, but also the specs of VW, SAAB, BMW, MB, et. al.

Jason

 

[geo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:


Yes, you are reading the chart correctly, but I'm not sure if the VW500.00 oils were usually not true synthtics. It really doesn't matter anymore, because VW500.00 has been superseeded by VW502.00. That's the spec I'm looking for when chosing an oil for my Audi, despite the fact that there was no VW502.00 when my car was made. VW501.00 has been replaced since, too.

I find it interesting, and disconcerting, that M1 0W-30 does not meet VW502.00, because so many fellow Audi drivers actually use it! Audi seems to have a double standard regarding oil recommendations: "Here, if in Europe use only this good stuff that meets those very particular VW specs, if you are outside of Europe, then just put anything in."

And I think this might hint at what's going on with some makes now. Some car manufacturers seem to strictly endorse certain products (underhood sticker). Maybe it's to ensure peole use the correct oil? Let's face it, who, apart from people like us, compares oil spec sheets?

---

I don't believe one can't assume that all PAOs or Esters or HCs or blends are 500.00 or 502.00 capable (although I'm sure many xW-40 non-dino oils are). 'Column A' oils are typically some type of non-dino oil. Spec and viscosity are important, not oil type. E.g., Castrol GTX7 5W-40 is an EU HC (Group III) oil that is a 502.00 - Pentosynth 5W-50 full (PAO) synthetic is not a 502.00 oil.

Regarding 500.00 availability, a few EU oil blenders specifically mention 500.00 and not 502.00. This may be because they have not yet applied for 502.00 homologation. E.g., Pentosin 10W-40 synthetic blend is specifically a 500.00 oil but not a 502.00.

501.01 has not been superseded by 502.00, like 500.00. When using non-502.00/500.00 "high-quality" oil, 501.01 spec must be followed as a minimum for Europe, and SF/SG (SL) spec for the US (for the 2.8L 12V). On the Russian oil site I mentioned previously, 501.01 and 502.00 are grouped together as currently in use.

Audi specifies lesser oils here in the US because demands on oil are typically less. This statement is from AoA.

[ July 21, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: geo ]

 

[moribundman]

quote:

---

I don't believe you can't assume that all PAOs or Esters or HCs or blends are 500.00 or 502.00 capable (although I'm sure many xW-40 non-dino oils are).

---

geo,
I never made that claim. I said that to my best knowledge all VW500/502 oils were either full synthetic or maybe HC oils, but I'm just not absolutely sure. I know the VW500 that I used were full synthetic oils. In any case, I never said that any full synthetic oil would automatically meet any VW oil spec. The VW501.00 spec has been superseded by VW 501.01, as far as I know. If you look again at the oil chart of my '96 manual, there wasn't any VW501.01 spec mentioned.

As for Audi saying the oil suggested for use in the US is good enough due to less demands on the oil, well, does AoA know how I drive my car? My driving style is the same in Europe and here. I still redline my car the same as there, with the exception of the prolonged high speed driving.

I think Audi's recommendation shows a double standard.

[ July 21, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[moribundman]

quote:

---

M'man,

Did they still sell Shell TMO when you lived there? When I lived in Germany in the early 80's as far as I was concerned this was THE oil. It cost around $12 a liter. It was a Leichtlauföl but I don't know to this day if it was HC or vollsynthetisch.

---

pscholte,
I can't remember all the various oils we had back then - I wasn't really an oilhead then.

The only thing I remember that that I was told BP Strato was "the best." So that's what I used. It came in a nifty silver/green bottle with a futuristic look. Maybe that nifty bottle made that oil so expensive.

 

[geo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:
geo,
I never made that claim. I said that to my best knowledge all VW500/502 oils were either full synthetic or maybe HC oils, but I'm just not absolutely sure. I know the VW500 that I used were full synthetic oils. In any case, I never said that any full synthetic oil would automatically meet any VW oil spec.

---

Sorry moribundman! I misunderstood. I got the impression that you were heading that way...

quote:

---

The VW501.00 spec has been superseded by VW 501.01, as far as I know. If you look again at the oil chart of my '96 manual, there wasn't any VW501.01 spec mentioned.

---

Yes, 501.01 has superseded 501.00, but it's essentially the identical spec but with additional viscosities.

quote:

---

As for Audi saying the oil suggested for use in the US is good enough due to less demands on the oil, well, does AoA know how I drive my car? My driving style is the same in Europe and here. I still redline my car the same as there, with the exception of the prolonged high speed driving.

I think Audi's recommendation shows a double standard.

---

AoA said prolonged high-speed driving is the difference between US and EU driving. Under any driving conditions in the US, SF/SG/SL oil is fine for the 12V. Thicker viscosities are for the 'lower quality' oils' (501, API, column B), and thinner viscosities are for the 'higher quality' oils (502/500, column A).

[ July 21, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: geo ]

 

[moribundman]

geo,
No problem. I can see how you misinterpreted what I was saying.

quote:

---

AoA said prolonged high-speed driving is the difference between US and EU driving. Under any driving conditions in the US, SF/SG/SL oil is fine for the 12V. Thicker viscosities are for the 'lower quality' oils' (501, API, column B), and thinner viscosities are for the 'higher quality' oils (502/500, column A).

---

Well, I think it's less about speed, it's about engine load and RPM. Let's say I drive my car at 60 mph in 2nd gear for 30 minutes with am API approved oil. You think I'll blow up the motor? Let's say I tow my boat through Death Valley at 65 mph in 120 degree heat. I don't think this will be any less hard on the engine than cruising down the Autobahn at 230km/h. What about if I track my car? An API oil will do? I'd rather not try. I redline my engine frequently, admittedly not for a prolonged time, but it's still enough to make me use one of the better oils. Also, the VW oil specs are not only about viscosity and HT/HS, but many other criteria (ash, seal compatibility, etc). I really prefer to use an oil that does indeed meet the car manufacturer's specs, since that should ensure optimum compatibility, no matter where and how I drive.

[ July 21, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[geo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:


Well, I think it's less about speed, it's about engine load and RPM. Let's say I drive my car at 60 mph in 2nd gear for 30 minutes with am API approved oil. You think I'll blow up the motor? Let's say I tow my boat through Death Valley at 65 mph in 120 degree heat. I don't think this will be any less hard on the engine than cruising down the Autobahn at 230km/h. What about if I track my car? An API oil will do? I'd rather not try. I redline my engine frequently, admittedly not for a prolonged time, but it's still enough to make me use one of the better oils.

---

I can't argue with your concerns.

AoA believes that using a 15W-40 or 20W-50 SL dino oil under the severe service schedule is fine. Maybe these oils won't shear within 3750 miles under the conditions you stated. But, how about engine longevity and cleanliness? I don't know.

quote:

---

Also, the VW oil specs are not only about viscosity and HT/HS, but many other criteria (ash, seal compatibility, etc). I really prefer to use an oil that does indeed meet the car manufacturer's specs, since that should ensure optimum compatibility, no matter where and how I drive.

---

Yes, I too prefer a VW/Audi spec oil. But my questions are... Is an SF/SG/SL spec dino oil truly similar to 501.01, as EU Audi manuals state? Are there are any negative long-term effects to using API vs 501.01? Severe or normal service schedule? Is using a thinner 502 oil truly the same as using a thicker 501.01 oil? I don't know.

BTW, MB 229.3 and MB 229.5 specify the 'VW T4' test for piston cleanliness and wear to 502.00 limits. Interesting...

 

[pscholte]

SAAB is vague too! They make reference to API SL, ILSAC GF-3, and ACEA A3 in the manual, but their service fill for the 9-5 is a semi-synthetic 5W-30 (ACEA A1) oil!

Q1,

Since as Saab is one of the cars I am looking at as a next purchase, I sent Saab US an email on approved motor oils. The answer I got back was, we use M1 5W-30.

pscholte,
I can't remember all the various oils we had back then - I wasn't really an oilhead then. The only thing I remember that that I was told BP Strato was "the best." So that's what I used. It came in a nifty silver/green bottle with a futuristic look. Maybe that nifty bottle made that oil so expensive

M'man,

Brings up a great point...why does Europe get all the flashy containers...surf the websites of the various purveyors (OEM and middlemen) of motor oil in different countries...makes our containers look positively...ahem...pedestrian.

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pscholte:


Q1,

Since as Saab is one of the cars I am looking at as a next purchase, I sent Saab US an email on approved motor oils. The answer I got back was, we use M1 5W-30.

---

That person is misinformed. Click on this link: Taliaferro SAAB Technical Knowledge Base and then click "2003 Oil Quality Requirements" for more info.

Jason

 

[pscholte]

Q1,

Thanks for the info...

Paul