ohh cr*p.. i shouldn't have said that I guess..
is Regular oil safe for '03 BMW?
- Thread starter Tobin
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Tobin
I'm sorry for not responding.. I in the middle of trying to clean and reading your threads. I've gotten the same impression as AJ, using conventional with regular intervals wont be harmful under regular driving conditions if changed every 5K INTERVALS.
Now some argue that its about the same in price but AJ is not neccessarily arguing that, although according to my calculations and by real estimates from oil change places, such as MIDAS, it is still cheaper.
I MAINLY wanted to know in facts and in theory as why regular oil would harm an engine and I gave a reason as to why I was asking this (because I'm broke at the moment lol). I didnt do anything yet. At first, I didnt hear much from people who thought conventional would be good. I appreciate AJ offering the other side of the picture with his advice and being simply bold enough to challenge conventional thought. I wish you people wouldnt attack each other just over discussing motor oil?
Believe it or not, I'm not listening to what I want to hear. I really do want to see some research and I've been doing that for the past 2 weeks. So to me all advice is welcome.
Well, if money is an issue at present and the car needs an oil change, then definitely go with the cheaper conventional oil change, and change it after 5000-6000 miles. At that time you can either switch to synthetic or get another conventional oil change, maybe withought a filter change. I'm sure you can use the filter for 2 oil changes if you're going the conventional way and changing out the oil every 5000-6000 miles. Even if you go synthetic after the first oil change with conventional, you can use the same filter, I'm sure it would do fine for 15000 miles total. Don't worry about it too much, the car is out of warranty and it won't matter if the oil meets bmw's specs or not, as long as you change the conventional every 5-6000 miles it should all be good. Don't loose any sleep over it. I would just use any conventional on sale in the 5w30 or 10w30 grade and enjoy driving your car and stop worrying too much about the engine exploding by using conventional, because it won't as long as you keep changing it out regularly.
I'm sorry for not responding.. I in the middle of trying to clean and reading your threads. I've gotten the same impression as AJ, using conventional with regular intervals wont be harmful under regular driving conditions if changed every 5K INTERVALS.
Now some argue that its about the same in price but AJ is not neccessarily arguing that, although according to my calculations and by real estimates from oil change places, such as MIDAS, it is still cheaper.
I MAINLY wanted to know in facts and in theory as why regular oil would harm an engine and I gave a reason as to why I was asking this (because I'm broke at the moment lol). I didnt do anything yet. At first, I didnt hear much from people who thought conventional would be good. I appreciate AJ offering the other side of the picture with his advice and being simply bold enough to challenge conventional thought. I wish you people wouldnt attack each other just over discussing motor oil?
Believe it or not, I'm not listening to what I want to hear. I really do want to see some research and I've been doing that for the past 2 weeks. So to me all advice is welcome.
Well, if money is an issue at present and the car needs an oil change, then definitely go with the cheaper conventional oil change, and change it after 5000-6000 miles. At that time you can either switch to synthetic or get another conventional oil change, maybe withought a filter change. I'm sure you can use the filter for 2 oil changes if you're going the conventional way and changing out the oil every 5000-6000 miles. Even if you go synthetic after the first oil change with conventional, you can use the same filter, I'm sure it would do fine for 15000 miles total. Don't worry about it too much, the car is out of warranty and it won't matter if the oil meets bmw's specs or not, as long as you change the conventional every 5-6000 miles it should all be good. Don't loose any sleep over it. I would just use any conventional on sale in the 5w30 or 10w30 grade and enjoy driving your car and stop worrying too much about the engine exploding by using conventional, because it won't as long as you keep changing it out regularly.
Last edited:
"I thought I was out.... And they pulled me back in." Silvio Dante
You know what T? What you could do is go to Pep Boys or a place like that, and buy a Hayes Repair manual. Loads of pictures on how to do alot of things. and they're not that expensive.
I've done that with the last three cars. Most of what's in there I wouldn't attempt, and thanks to bad hands, what I could do causes alot of pain.
Where to buy the oil? Alot of people here go to Walmart. If you buy the 5qt jugs, and two quarts, you'll save money. Get yourself some MANN filters, or Wix, (I think), and you're good to go.
I think someone mentioned oil extractors. Not a bad idea. Saves you from getting under the car. No worries about things like stripping the threads on the drain plug. (Jiffy Lube did that to me in 1998. Haven't been back since.)
Oil changes? On a 1972 AMC Javelin I6, I changed the oil every 1,000 miles. Kind of miss that car. Easy to work on. Pop the hood, and you actually the the engine. Look to either side, and you can see the ground.
You know what T? What you could do is go to Pep Boys or a place like that, and buy a Hayes Repair manual. Loads of pictures on how to do alot of things. and they're not that expensive.
I've done that with the last three cars. Most of what's in there I wouldn't attempt, and thanks to bad hands, what I could do causes alot of pain.
Where to buy the oil? Alot of people here go to Walmart. If you buy the 5qt jugs, and two quarts, you'll save money. Get yourself some MANN filters, or Wix, (I think), and you're good to go.
I think someone mentioned oil extractors. Not a bad idea. Saves you from getting under the car. No worries about things like stripping the threads on the drain plug. (Jiffy Lube did that to me in 1998. Haven't been back since.)
Oil changes? On a 1972 AMC Javelin I6, I changed the oil every 1,000 miles. Kind of miss that car. Easy to work on. Pop the hood, and you actually the the engine. Look to either side, and you can see the ground.
There is something wasn't mentioned by OP, other than some spirited driving what are average trips ? If most trips are 20-25 minutes and/or 10-15 miles or less, then any brand name conventional 5w20 could be used for 6mo/6k miles OCI.
With an oil extractor and buying oil+filter on sale, the cost of oil change twice a year can be as little as $40-$50 or less, assuming total mileage is about 12k miles a year.
With an oil extractor and buying oil+filter on sale, the cost of oil change twice a year can be as little as $40-$50 or less, assuming total mileage is about 12k miles a year.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If most trips are 20-25 minutes and/or 10-15 miles or less, then any brand name conventional 5W20 could be used for 6mo/6k miles OCI.
Some really bad advice here.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
Will regular oil damage or harm my engine over time. If so, please explain and specify how.
5w20 conventional at 6,000 miles combined with some spirited driving will be going through that engine like s**t through a goose. If you run like this for long you may find it will trigger the check engine light after it ruins one or two of the $100 oxygen sensors. Continue adding conventional and you risk plugging the complex BMW PCV system. Once the PCV system is plugged you will start sludging up the engine, burning even more oil and/or poisoning the two catalytic converters - particularly if the oil isn't SM rated.
I have experienced all of these problems, except the catalytic converters, first hand, with a used 2000 BMW Z3M. The previous owner ran extended oil changes with conventional oil. I knew the car had been poorly maintained but the price was right and my wife and I just loved it.
When we first got the car, it was going through 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles. My eyes would burn after a long drive and the interior smelt like burnt oil. I figured I was going to faced with a very expensive engine rebuild.
I unplugged the pcv system, changed the O2 sensor, cleared the check engine light and changed the oil to Castrol Syntec 5W40. Oil usage dropped dramatically to about 1 quart every 3000 miles, the smell went away and the engine sounded much smoother.
I recently did my second oil change with Maxlife 10W30 full synthetic (BMW LL01 rated). In the first 1000 miles it has not used any oil at all. I got this oil on sale for $17 a jug. It was the previous formulation in the red jug. I am not sure if the latest formulations have the BMW approval.
Don't use 5W20 or 5w30 conventional! If you absolutely have to use conventional go with 15W40.
If most trips are 20-25 minutes and/or 10-15 miles or less, then any brand name conventional 5W20 could be used for 6mo/6k miles OCI.
Some really bad advice here.
Originally Posted By: Tobin
Will regular oil damage or harm my engine over time. If so, please explain and specify how.
5w20 conventional at 6,000 miles combined with some spirited driving will be going through that engine like s**t through a goose. If you run like this for long you may find it will trigger the check engine light after it ruins one or two of the $100 oxygen sensors. Continue adding conventional and you risk plugging the complex BMW PCV system. Once the PCV system is plugged you will start sludging up the engine, burning even more oil and/or poisoning the two catalytic converters - particularly if the oil isn't SM rated.
I have experienced all of these problems, except the catalytic converters, first hand, with a used 2000 BMW Z3M. The previous owner ran extended oil changes with conventional oil. I knew the car had been poorly maintained but the price was right and my wife and I just loved it.
When we first got the car, it was going through 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles. My eyes would burn after a long drive and the interior smelt like burnt oil. I figured I was going to faced with a very expensive engine rebuild.
I unplugged the pcv system, changed the O2 sensor, cleared the check engine light and changed the oil to Castrol Syntec 5W40. Oil usage dropped dramatically to about 1 quart every 3000 miles, the smell went away and the engine sounded much smoother.
I recently did my second oil change with Maxlife 10W30 full synthetic (BMW LL01 rated). In the first 1000 miles it has not used any oil at all. I got this oil on sale for $17 a jug. It was the previous formulation in the red jug. I am not sure if the latest formulations have the BMW approval.
Don't use 5W20 or 5w30 conventional! If you absolutely have to use conventional go with 15W40.
Completely different situation, engine, etc.
Talk to Dr. Hass about running 5w20 conventional in a Euro spec car that calls for 10w-60 synth.
Are people understanding the fact that ACEA A3 spec is what the European mfg spcs are based on? Castrol GTX "Mineral" 10w-40 meets A3.
Talk to Dr. Hass about running 5w20 conventional in a Euro spec car that calls for 10w-60 synth.
Are people understanding the fact that ACEA A3 spec is what the European mfg spcs are based on? Castrol GTX "Mineral" 10w-40 meets A3.
So now it's "use Royal Purple" yeah that would be smart use an oil from a company that REFUSES TO PUBLISH HTHS SPECS ON THEIR OIL. No way on earth telling if it meets spec unless you have powers like Merlin the Magician (new TV series so timing is apt). Anyway for the dino pushers for BMW engines just spend time on the U.S BMW forums which are the best by the way and see the wonderful pictures of destroyed engines. Then come back and explain it away.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Talk to Dr. Hass about running 5w20 conventional in a Euro spec car that calls for 10w-60 synth.
Was he running mineral? I thought the 5w-20 he was using was synthetic.
Talk to Dr. Hass about running 5w20 conventional in a Euro spec car that calls for 10w-60 synth.
Was he running mineral? I thought the 5w-20 he was using was synthetic.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Completely different situation, engine, etc.
No, it is a very similar engine:
My BMW is a 3.2 liter straight six producing 240 hp with a single vanos and a 7,500 rpm redline.
The OP has a 2.5 liter straight six producing 192 hp with a double vanos and a 6,500 rpm redline.
These two engines have nearly identical specific power (76hp per liter). They also both have 4 o2 sensors, 2 catalytic converters, similar intake systems, etc.
I am going to stick with LL01 approved oil in my car. I use 5W20 in my Honda but I think I will let someone else prove that it works in a bimmer.
Completely different situation, engine, etc.
No, it is a very similar engine:
My BMW is a 3.2 liter straight six producing 240 hp with a single vanos and a 7,500 rpm redline.
The OP has a 2.5 liter straight six producing 192 hp with a double vanos and a 6,500 rpm redline.
These two engines have nearly identical specific power (76hp per liter). They also both have 4 o2 sensors, 2 catalytic converters, similar intake systems, etc.
I am going to stick with LL01 approved oil in my car. I use 5W20 in my Honda but I think I will let someone else prove that it works in a bimmer.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: sprintman
Anyway for the dino pushers for BMW engines just spend time on the U.S BMW forums which are the best by the way and see the wonderful pictures of destroyed engines. Then come back and explain it away.
Why don't you post up some examples for us to discuss?
"Why don't you guys visit the BMW USA forums and look at some of the pictures of clean, well maintained engines?"
See what I did there?
Anyway for the dino pushers for BMW engines just spend time on the U.S BMW forums which are the best by the way and see the wonderful pictures of destroyed engines. Then come back and explain it away.
Why don't you post up some examples for us to discuss?
"Why don't you guys visit the BMW USA forums and look at some of the pictures of clean, well maintained engines?"
See what I did there?
3.2 and 2.5 are "very similar"? Wow.
You forgot a few things:
mva's car already had issues when he got it, verses the OP who has an undamaged engine. mva changed to Syntec 5w-40 and it cleared up the burning, but he also preformed a lot of other services at the same time. How does he know it wasn't the PCV leaking or how does he know 10w-40 or 15w40 would not have reduced or eliminated the burning as well? Do you guys do anything *except* speculate? btw- I'm glad MaxLife Synthetic 10w30 (a thin oil at 12cSt) is working for you. What exactly is it about MaxLife Synthetic that makes it so great and different from MaxLife dino, say an even thicker 10w-40?
Why do people like Sprintman keep saying to "look at the sludged BMW engines on their Forums"? The instances of sludged engines I've seen were on BMW oil, ran to extremes.Like I said before, unless the owner poured the oil in themselves, nobody has any idea what actually happened at the service.It might have dino in there and the owner had no idea,
All the "BMW guys" here...not a single link or direct reference to support their sludge theorem and not a even SINGLE BMW UOA posted here. What gives? A lot of armchair analysis, I'm afraid.
Nobody wants to address the spec comparisons I posted either...hmmm.
You forgot a few things:
mva's car already had issues when he got it, verses the OP who has an undamaged engine. mva changed to Syntec 5w-40 and it cleared up the burning, but he also preformed a lot of other services at the same time. How does he know it wasn't the PCV leaking or how does he know 10w-40 or 15w40 would not have reduced or eliminated the burning as well? Do you guys do anything *except* speculate? btw- I'm glad MaxLife Synthetic 10w30 (a thin oil at 12cSt) is working for you. What exactly is it about MaxLife Synthetic that makes it so great and different from MaxLife dino, say an even thicker 10w-40?
Why do people like Sprintman keep saying to "look at the sludged BMW engines on their Forums"? The instances of sludged engines I've seen were on BMW oil, ran to extremes.Like I said before, unless the owner poured the oil in themselves, nobody has any idea what actually happened at the service.It might have dino in there and the owner had no idea,
All the "BMW guys" here...not a single link or direct reference to support their sludge theorem and not a even SINGLE BMW UOA posted here. What gives? A lot of armchair analysis, I'm afraid.
Nobody wants to address the spec comparisons I posted either...hmmm.
I wish there was an easy way to search for BMW used oil analysis, alas, the search engine doesn't digest a three-letter search term. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any mineral oil used oil analysis in a recent model BMW posted here. Not that a used oil analysis will necessarily show you that you have a sludge problem...
AJ, the proof is really on you in this case. You're asking for someone to disregard the manufacturer recommendations and use their own car as a guinea pig to verify if your unproven assumptions will work or not. Who has more knowledge of these engines and their lubrication needs: you, a casual oil changer, or the manufacturer who built this engine?
Is it possible that mineral oil at short OCIs will work? It's possible. Am I going to sacrifice my car to find out? Not a chance in [censored]. I've got enough problems to worry about as it is without throwing another unknown into the mix.
Is it possible that mineral oil at short OCIs will work? It's possible. Am I going to sacrifice my car to find out? Not a chance in [censored]. I've got enough problems to worry about as it is without throwing another unknown into the mix.
Look at the oil specs. Same flashpoint, same visc, same HT/HS, same TBN. Where is the danger? There are no "assumptions" on my part, I'm looking at indisputable facts, not jumping to conclusions and making assumptions like you guys.
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Look at the oil specs. Same flashpoint, same visc, same HT/HS, same TBN. Where is the danger? There are no "assumptions" on my part,
Your assumption is that there is nothing beyond those specs. We don't know exactly what specs BMW considers/tests when approving an oil for use in their engines. Do we?
Quote:
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
Dual vanos? I have no idea. I didn't design this engine, and neither did you. The fact that we don't know doesn't automatically make it OK to disregard the mfg recommendation.
Look at the oil specs. Same flashpoint, same visc, same HT/HS, same TBN. Where is the danger? There are no "assumptions" on my part,
Your assumption is that there is nothing beyond those specs. We don't know exactly what specs BMW considers/tests when approving an oil for use in their engines. Do we?
Quote:
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
Dual vanos? I have no idea. I didn't design this engine, and neither did you. The fact that we don't know doesn't automatically make it OK to disregard the mfg recommendation.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Your assumption is that there is nothing beyond those specs. We don't know exactly what specs BMW considers/tests when approving an oil for use in their engines. Do we?
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
Dual vanos? I have no idea. I didn't design this engine, and neither did you. The fact that we don't know doesn't automatically make it OK to disregard the mfg recommendation.
I'm not "disregarding mfg instructions", I'm updating and improving them. Just like I did when Audi started specing 10k intervals in the 1.8t with a tiny filter the year I got a new one in 2002. Should we (have) "disregrded" the mfgs recommendation then? Well it turned out the mfg was ~wrong~. I guess the 15k BMW changes are observed strictly by you all?
I feel like this thread is in some virtual bizarro-bitog. Since "we" don't know all the requirements for LL-01 (an old spec by any accounts) why not speculate on them, like is the norm here.
mpg
ht/hs
cold-cranking
volitility
deposit control
wear
shear
tbn (sludge control)
extended drain capable (anti-oxy/nitrate)
My informed guess is that a conventional 10w40 like GTX would meet all but one or two of these criteria, mpg, cold-cranking, true extended drain. Seeing as how the spec it does carry, API SM, has a set of rigourous tests and published specs, which exactly equaling the physical characteristics of the published specs of the BMW oil!
Hmm.
The HD oils have a mind-boggling array of oem approvals, Delo carrying A3 at one point, yeah, the Euro spec.
Taking the example of Euro GTX 10w-40 "Mineral" having ACEA A3 their spec requirements, all of which exactly mirror the BMW specs.
There is just no disputing the API and ACEA specs, is that why you're not trying? Comparing them to BMWs is just a matter of doing a little homework, which I did short of pulling the API specs for deposit control, etc.What I found was a vast array of examples of oils that cover the specs as we know them, I mean as *I* know them.Can *we* get a copy of the BMW specs without me having to do all the work?
Your assumption is that there is nothing beyond those specs. We don't know exactly what specs BMW considers/tests when approving an oil for use in their engines. Do we?
What exactly about your 3.0 requires synthetic oil?
Dual vanos? I have no idea. I didn't design this engine, and neither did you. The fact that we don't know doesn't automatically make it OK to disregard the mfg recommendation.
I'm not "disregarding mfg instructions", I'm updating and improving them. Just like I did when Audi started specing 10k intervals in the 1.8t with a tiny filter the year I got a new one in 2002. Should we (have) "disregrded" the mfgs recommendation then? Well it turned out the mfg was ~wrong~. I guess the 15k BMW changes are observed strictly by you all?
I feel like this thread is in some virtual bizarro-bitog. Since "we" don't know all the requirements for LL-01 (an old spec by any accounts) why not speculate on them, like is the norm here.
mpg
ht/hs
cold-cranking
volitility
deposit control
wear
shear
tbn (sludge control)
extended drain capable (anti-oxy/nitrate)
My informed guess is that a conventional 10w40 like GTX would meet all but one or two of these criteria, mpg, cold-cranking, true extended drain. Seeing as how the spec it does carry, API SM, has a set of rigourous tests and published specs, which exactly equaling the physical characteristics of the published specs of the BMW oil!
Hmm.
The HD oils have a mind-boggling array of oem approvals, Delo carrying A3 at one point, yeah, the Euro spec.
Taking the example of Euro GTX 10w-40 "Mineral" having ACEA A3 their spec requirements, all of which exactly mirror the BMW specs.
There is just no disputing the API and ACEA specs, is that why you're not trying? Comparing them to BMWs is just a matter of doing a little homework, which I did short of pulling the API specs for deposit control, etc.What I found was a vast array of examples of oils that cover the specs as we know them, I mean as *I* know them.Can *we* get a copy of the BMW specs without me having to do all the work?
Quote:
Just like I did when Audi started specing 10k intervals in the 1.8t with a tiny filter the year I got a new one in 2002. Should we (have) "disregrded" the mfgs recommendation then? Well it turned out the mfg was ~wrong~. I guess the 15k BMW changes are observed strictly by you all?
I am not saying the mfg is always right. But what are the chances that you know better than them what's right? Not a 100% either.
Shortening OCI, using larger filter... those are steps that we take to IMPROVE our chances and better the mfg. But when you suggest mineral oil in place of synthetic, that seems like a step to WORSEN them.
Just like I did when Audi started specing 10k intervals in the 1.8t with a tiny filter the year I got a new one in 2002. Should we (have) "disregrded" the mfgs recommendation then? Well it turned out the mfg was ~wrong~. I guess the 15k BMW changes are observed strictly by you all?
I am not saying the mfg is always right. But what are the chances that you know better than them what's right? Not a 100% either.
Shortening OCI, using larger filter... those are steps that we take to IMPROVE our chances and better the mfg. But when you suggest mineral oil in place of synthetic, that seems like a step to WORSEN them.
Half-length changes on oil with the same TBN is not "worse".
Really, compared to FULL-LENGTH BMW changes, shorter 15w40 HD changes seems ~worse~ to you?
I remember at least one BMW sludge case that the owner WAS doing BMW OLM intervals. Most other cases were, in fact, quite unreliable in nature...a lot of blame going around.
Not to upset anyone too, but the cars loose value after a while and paying for unnecessary $200 BMW dealer changes is not advised when there are other many considerations for repair on the table.
Really, compared to FULL-LENGTH BMW changes, shorter 15w40 HD changes seems ~worse~ to you?
I remember at least one BMW sludge case that the owner WAS doing BMW OLM intervals. Most other cases were, in fact, quite unreliable in nature...a lot of blame going around.
Not to upset anyone too, but the cars loose value after a while and paying for unnecessary $200 BMW dealer changes is not advised when there are other many considerations for repair on the table.
- Status